Aggressive suggestions for competitions

[Hondacity]

if you go thru some contest rules..they're quite good already. and we've seen consequences of doing something wrong(sharingscores). Fugger did a good example.

we just don't want sharing scores...or hardware sharing...most of the elite don't want to chime in..since they're ok with the current rules. and its gonna be like that for awhile...even if new ways of validating scores come up...a loop hole is always possible.

for example...

gigaboost enters the contest.... if the contest doesn't try to identify him and just accepts him as "gigaboost" then thats already a fail.

there must be an agreement/written or documented that states " hey im jonny cage from taiwan. i'll be using gigabyte's lab and will be joining gigabyte's contest. and using our 100 cpus and 200 gpus from gigabyte"

any contests has some form of registration ...

[Movieman]

if you go thru some contest rules..they're quite good already. and we've seen consequences of doing something wrong(sharingscores). Fugger did a good example.

we just don't want sharing scores...or hardware sharing...most of the elite don't want to chime in..since they're ok with the current rules. and its gonna be like that for awhile...even if new ways of validating scores come up...a loop hole is always possible.

for example...

gigaboost enters the contest.... if the contest doesn't try to identify him and just accepts him as "gigaboost" then thats already a fail.

there must be an agreement/written or documented that states " hey im jonny cage from taiwan. i'll be using gigabyte's lab and will be joining gigabyte's contest. and using our 100 cpus and 200 gpus from gigabyte"

any contests has some form of registration ...

I was talking with a couple companies today making the point that "hired guns" shouldn't be allowd in the contests.
Notice that you don't see Shamino in any of these and you know damned well he could win more often than lose.
Guys like hicookie shouldn't be in these competitions.
They should have a role as teachers .
Make the scores, show the n00b's how it's done but not be an active participant.
Then when some tool thinks he's smarter than everyone else and decides to cheat have someone "visit" him and explain the facts of life in nice simple words.

[Hondacity]

my 51st post was in response to post #50..which was laid out before.....we're looking for new ways or rules for competition so its more controlled and competitive..

we all know shamino stepped back alittle... and yes we all know shamino can be in top10 whenever he likes...he's with hipro5 and kingpin..living legends.

hicookie never joined any competition...nobody proved he was the alleged gigadude...

as Massman said...most manufacturers don't know who's getting what...and they can't say a reviewer/overclocker to NOT join competitions...

[systemviper]

I love to see that we are at least going down this road, this sure beats
beating up people....

I love the idea of buying your own hardware, but i think that is unrealistic for the near future
as any new sport tries to gain credibility and still keep their stars playing in the same sandbox change will have to be gradual
but i think the first 2 are realistic and some form of the 3rd.


I DO think that throwing rules at the problem are/is part of the solution, without a set of standardized rules then there will never be a truly fair competition.
but i define fair as an event that i could get lucky and win but that the seasoned / sponsored overclocker will still be the favorite
you can't take that away from the sport, we want out winners, our leaders , our superstars.... hell yea

i don't mind sponsorship but it has to be regulated somehow, I don't have all the answers but i do know that rules alone will not do it either.
I firmly believe we need an overclocking commission/oversight/ what every you want to call it, non profit and looking out for the sport and players too...

if you look at nascar, everyone drives the same cars with the same engines....
and the new guy will have a hard time competing with Jeff Gordon,
but the rules and regs will give him an edge that HE DOES NOT HAVE NOW!
had to throw some caps in for -youknowwho-

So just the idea that we are looking forward/big picture and not dwelling on the negative is a big step to me...

but my approach would be

-- consolidated rules

-- non profit governing body (not hwbot or any forum) elected by the registered members,
so who cares if the popular guy wins,
I have been in these forums for a long time and that statement makes me laugh, this has to be the toughest crowd i ever met,
and they are going to get together and vote the most popular guy in- doubt it...
Plus a governing body is made up of a chairman and the committee, so no one person has ABSOLUTE power

--and the third, getting the support of the major forums, hwbot and some key manufactures.

when we can move forward on these three fronts, then i think we have a chance......

But i feel the events of the last few competitions bring a quote to mind.

Carpe diem

we have a chance right now, lets not blow it

i just had to that out....
ahhhh it feels good

) NO CPU SHARRING, CPU MAY ONLY BE USED BY ONE USER, BE THAT 2D OR 3D, NO DIFFERENCE. (M.Beier)

2) VIDEO DOCUMENTATION MUST BE PROVIDED, WITH RESULTS ACHEIVED OF +-3% OF END RESULT. (M.Beier)

3) ONLY PURCHASED HARDWARE (Hondacity)

[Viss]

I think the rules at the Bot and most compettions are wel thought about and good as they are.

[massman]

Cheat and your ass is banned until the second coming of Christ and you name is removed from everywhere it exists.
Without Honor you have nothing!

FYI, for the past couple of months, I've been adding this little rule to every competition:

"We expect everyone to play fair, people who damage the integrity of the overclocking spirit in this competition will be banned from HWBOT."

A very subjective rule, but it's there to prevent people from cheating and then pointing to the rules that it's okay

[OverShocked]

I think the real problem is the binning... many have bought over a dozen 980x's to find the best one.

There is NO way someone like myself can compete with someone who is buying a dozen. There is no way i could afford to compete with someone who buys a dozen of any CPUs. Its just not about skill anymore.

[massman]

How come you have more skill when you have bought just one sample?

[packetNZ]

How come you have more skill when you have bought just one sample?

Miyagi son your Zen ways will confuse people ....this is your community banding together to sort out a concern..........shhhhh listen

[Eeky NoX]

M. Beier becomin a ruler

Seriously, great attention Marc, ya know exactly what I think, and I always follow you on serious statements.
As I'm gonna take more place on the OC scene in a few months, the purposes interest me at the highest level, it's time to redefine rules and almost start to civilise the entire scene, cus it cain't continue on that way without scratching on the wall :/
The community has been hurted with those passed troubles, but we need to learn from that and not give up like I heard from some bored members

Thank you to all those who compete fairly and work hard for our community in a good way, the real one ! The passion ! (yeah Massman we love HW pr0on like ya ^^)

[massman]

Miyagi son your Zen ways will confuse people ....this is your community banding together to sort out a concern..........shhhhh listen

I am sitting down AND taking notes here.

I just wonder why it's a given that the more money you spend, the less skill is involved in achieving benchmark scores.

[Eeky NoX]

I can attest the contrary! the thousand € I spent last year gave me the right to upgrade my skillz and grow up in the ranking.
Even when starting I though it will be too hard. (lost location whitout cold or good hw in the place, very high ambiant temp and humidity without AC etc)
What I learn is patience, common sens, friendship and persistance. All of what makes a good Ocer to my opinion.

Edit: So IT'S WRONG! It's more an affair of passion or way of mind ...never give up and always push our hw and ourself the higher we can

Edit2: More explicit in the next post (good explanation Systemviper)

[systemviper]

I am sitting down AND taking notes here.

I just wonder why it's a given that the more money you spend, the less skill is involved in achieving benchmark scores.

where is that a given...

it's not the more money you spend, the less skill involved,
it's the more money you spend the better equiptment you have to
use your skillz on.

Now that is the reality...

guy with no money gets one card and is stuck with that item, if's he's lucky and got a golden chip then if he has some skillz he can make something of that golden item, if not then it's what it is.

now if you got money or backing, then you got several pieces of equiptment and you can bin them to find the best, then apply your skills on that binned item,... but even if you got money but your skills are lacking, then you end up with some great stuf but no way of maximizing it's potential///


so all money does is increase your chance of getting some great hardware
but your skills is the base and if you don't have the skillz, then you don't do to well no matter how much cash you got

[massman]

where is that a given...

I replied to this message:

There is NO way someone like myself can compete with someone who is buying a dozen. There is no way i could afford to compete with someone who buys a dozen of any CPUs. Its just not about skill anymore.

No money to compete ~ it's no longer about skill.

I agree with you that money is just a tool that allows you to increase the chances for a better component. Replacing those chances with a pre-binned VGA card (as happened in earlier 3D competitions) is not done imho and it was a mistake that everyone learned from. But, eventually, I return to the question:

"how come there's more skill involved when you pay for your own hardware".

I know some people work hard to provide feedback or reviews for certain hardware. Why is it not tolerable to allow these people to participate in competitions just because they haven't paid for their hardware. I'm not talking about pre-bins, just about a free sample.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to upset anyone. I'm running in loops on this topic myself and need people to show me the exit

[chew*]

I replied to this message:



No money to compete ~ it's no longer about skill.

I agree with you that money is just a tool that allows you to increase the chances for a better component. Replacing those chances with a pre-binned VGA card (as happened in earlier 3D competitions) is not done imho and it was a mistake that everyone learned from. But, eventually, I return to the question:

"how come there's more skill involved when you pay for your own hardware".

I know some people work hard to provide feedback or reviews for certain hardware. Why is it not tolerable to allow these people to participate in competitions just because they haven't paid for their hardware. I'm not talking about pre-bins, just about a free sample.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to upset anyone. I'm running in loops on this topic myself and need people to show me the exit

I'm one of the guys that gets samples for review/feedback etc etc.......it would be short money required if i sold said sample and had to put a little in to purchase another and have proof of receipt....wouldn't hurt the company either 1 more sale for them.

The guys that want to take the comps seriously will do what needs to be done.

[[XC] gomeler]

I'm one of the guys that gets samples for review/feedback etc etc.......it would be short money required if i sold said sample and had to put a little in to purchase another and have proof of receipt....wouldn't hurt the company either 1 more sale for them.

The guys that want to take the comps seriously will do what needs to be done.

This makes no sense. It just adds more hardware churn to an already high turnover hobby. With a resale value between 50% and 75% of retail benchers who receive review/eval samples would effectively be throwing money out the window in order to compete. On top of that what prevents me from going to Fry's, buying an RIIIE, scanning the receipt, returning the RIIIE, and using my kickass ES RIIIE eval sample? Would you like video evidence that I went to Fry's, purchased the board, unboxed it, prepared it, benched it, and submitted scores with it? Receipts, paperwork, and marks of approval are not the route.

[chew*]

This makes no sense. It just adds more hardware churn to an already high turnover hobby. With a resale value between 50% and 75% of retail benchers who receive review/eval samples would effectively be throwing money out the window in order to compete. On top of that what prevents me from going to Fry's, buying an RIIIE, scanning the receipt, returning the RIIIE, and using my kickass ES RIIIE eval sample? Would you like video evidence that I went to Fry's, purchased the board, unboxed it, prepared it, benched it, and submitted scores with it? Receipts, paperwork, and marks of approval are not the route.

Seems like alot of work to go through to cheat if you ask me........As whiney as some of these guys are.......to much work for them. Cheaters want easy way out, what you propose is not an easy way.

like is said it's not gonna stop it but it is a deterrent also your misguided, this isn't to deter a kick ass eval sample, it's to level playing field that everyone that competes has to actually PAY to PLAY

Example......lets say i got a free retail 670 and 655K.......then i got a few free P55 boards......I want to compete in the ASUS comp.

Guess what I can now afford to blow $$$$ on 180L of ln2 to compete.....meanwhile guy that busted his ass and probably went behind on a bill just to get what he needed to compete can only afford 30L after buying all hardware necessary......

What makes you so special that you don't have to throw money out window? Are you saying that the guy spending hard earned money to compete is throwing money out window? Or are you saying your money is more important?

I know for sure you didn't say that in your review

[packetNZ]

I am sitting down AND taking notes here.

I just wonder why it's a given that the more money you spend, the less skill is involved in achieving benchmark scores.

i agree with your question, i was trying to say/mean there are massive levels of skill/experience that cash cant buy.

[Hondacity]

On top of that what prevents me from going to Fry's, buying an RIIIE, scanning the receipt, returning the RIIIE, and using my kickass ES RIIIE eval sample? Would you like video evidence that I went to Fry's, purchased the board, unboxed it, prepared it, benched it, and submitted scores with it? Receipts, paperwork, and marks of approval are not the route.

only in america...sad but it could be done...

if it can be done...the more reason to enforce better rules..and such misconducts should be punished...

[Splave]

I think no HW should be able to be shared. IE a good investment right now is a team buy of an SR-2 and xeons for it and then just pop your gtx-480s on it. Your team would probably take 1-5 global in vantage. As of now this is legit as you can share for 3d, i think this is not good at all.

Is there no-way to work with the makers of wprime/pifast/superpi to be able to get valids? SS only is nto enough

[massman]

Maybe people are overrating the amount of people willing to spend a couple of hundred dollar (if not thousand) to compete?

[[XC] gomeler]

only in america...sad but it could be done...

if it can be done...the more reason to enforce better rules..and such misconducts should be punished...

I have a Frys and 2 MicroCenters between my home and my job. How exactly are your rules going to prevent me from doing this? I bet I could provide you receipts for an entire quad-GTX480 build with minimal effort. Would I feel dirty after doing it? For sure. My point here is that requiring receipts will only hurt the honest folk. What's that saying.. "locks only keep the honest people out". I feel that applies here.

Seems like alot of work to go through to cheat if you ask me........As whiney as some of these guys are.......to much work for them.

like is said it's not gonna stop it but it is a deterrent also your misguided, this isn't to deter a kick ass eval sample, it's to level playing field that everyone that competes has to actually PAY to PLAY

Example......lets say i got a free retail 670 and 655K.......then i got a few free P55 boards......I want to compete in the ASUS comp.

Guess what I can now afford to blow $$$$ on 180L of ln2 to compete.....meanwhile guy that busted his ass and probably went behind on a bill just to get what he needed to compete can only afford 30L after buying all hardware necessary......

You will eventually have to realize that life is just not fair. Attempting to force life to appear to be fair will only stifle us. LN2 costs also aren't the problem here.. let's tally up the MSI 2010 LOC rig costs.

CPU: 980x - $1000
MB: MSI XPower - $300
RAM: 2000C7 3x2GB $300
GPU: 3x HD5870 $1200
PSU: 1.2kW PSU $250
HDD: random hdd $50
Cooling: CPU pot $200

I think that is a safe representation of what was used for the top scores. Total cost of this rig is $3300 USD without tax/shipping on the parts. 180L of LN2 at least in the US should be under $200 USD if not under $100 USD with a corporate account at a proper supplier. In the end your cooling costs are under 10% of the cost of the rig. I know some people pay through the nose for LN2 like the Swedish/Finnish guys but for the most part LN2 can be bought for under $1/liter if you shop around and buy in bulk.

The guy who went behind on a bill in order to participate in his hobby isn't being responsible or realistic. As much as I would like to fund and race a Le Mans GT series car I know it is outside of my income range and therefore I have settled with autocrossing my daily driver from time to time.

[chew*]

I have a Frys and 2 MicroCenters between my home and my job. How exactly are your rules going to prevent me from doing this? I bet I could provide you receipts for an entire quad-GTX480 build with minimal effort. Would I feel dirty after doing it? For sure. My point here is that requiring receipts will only hurt the honest folk. What's that saying.. "locks only keep the honest people out". I feel that applies here.



You will eventually have to realize that life is just not fair. Attempting to force life to appear to be fair will only stifle us. LN2 costs also aren't the problem here.. let's tally up the MSI 2010 LOC rig costs.

CPU: 980x - $1000
MB: MSI XPower - $300
RAM: 2000C7 3x2GB $300
GPU: 3x HD5870 $1200
PSU: 1.2kW PSU $250
HDD: random hdd $50
Cooling: CPU pot $200

I think that is a safe representation of what was used for the top scores. Total cost of this rig is $3300 USD without tax/shipping on the parts. 180L of LN2 at least in the US should be under $200 USD if not under $100 USD with a corporate account at a proper supplier. In the end your cooling costs are under 10% of the cost of the rig. I know some people pay through the nose for LN2 like the Swedish/Finnish guys but for the most part LN2 can be bought for under $1/liter if you shop around and buy in bulk.

The guy who went behind on a bill in order to participate in his hobby isn't being responsible or realistic. As much as I would like to fund and race a Le Mans GT series car I know it is outside of my income range and therefore I have settled with autocrossing my daily driver from time to time.

Life is fair as the majority of people wish to make it.

Let me expand on this a bit. What i'm suggesting could and would possibly eliminate me from the majoirity of comps. Is that fair? yah to the guys paying for there own hardware it is.

[[XC] gomeler]

Walked away to chat with the co-workers and some new posts popped up.

I think no HW should be able to be shared. IE a good investment right now is a team buy of an SR-2 and xeons for it and then just pop your gtx-480s on it. Your team would probably take 1-5 global in vantage. As of now this is legit as you can share for 3d, i think this is not good at all.

Is there no-way to work with the makers of wprime/pifast/superpi to be able to get valids? SS only is nto enough

An SR-2 and a pair of X5680s are outside of the budget of the majority of us. It is hard to warrant dropping $4000 USD for a platform for just for one benchmark. I was considering arranging a group buy with a few people in order to purchase such a system but in the end the mindboggling costs and liability issues deterred me. However, if your team is able to lineup the funds and successfully run such a rig you should be rewarded for your efforts. Leeghoofd mentioned how his team shares a single 980x due to budget requirements. Sharing an SR-2 due to budget requirements is the same thing, just a magnitude greater in costs/impact.

I agree on the validation bit. Would like to see a unified validation platform that standardized and automated that part of our hobby. No bickering over screenshots and such. Boy do I hate when someone flags a result from 2 years ago because I failed to show the memory tab in CPU-Z

Maybe people are overrating the amount of people willing to spend a couple of hundred dollar (if not thousand) to compete?

[massman]

Is there no-way to work with the makers of wprime/pifast/superpi to be able to get valids? SS only is nto enough

It's easy. At HWBOT, we had a fully functional app for SPI that would store all loop information.

But it takes a lot of time to develop (both secure app and code on server side) and time is something we don't have to spare