Andre Yang - Lifetime Ban

[NightCrawler™]

Lets say you've got a good friend and you're playing some game. He starts to cheat and you don't like it one bit.

You got two choices :
1) you talk some sense into him
2) you report him without him knowing about it

Result of choice 1 will get him banned and he'll probably learn his lesson and wont do it again.
Result of choice 2 will get him banned, you'll lose a good friend and pissed off people like that usually dont learn their lesson.

I'd rather prevent my good friend from making the mistake in the first place..

[nitromullet]

I gave my opinion on the "what ifs" with doing this then went to sleep in another room some 45 minutes before skinnee uploaded the score and made it public.

Woke up the next morning and found out multiple scores were under investigation

I told him my thoughts on the matter and left the decision to him and went to bed. He was the one whose name was on it and he was the one who was trying to qualify for MOA.

This is really shameful. Not only have the two of you squandered a great deal of trust given you by enthusiasts around the world, but you've also shown yourself to be a lousy friend. A friend would 1) have tried to stop another friend from doing something like this 2) not thrown his friend under the bus as soon as things turned ugly.

At the very least the both of you should take the heat together, and maybe showing an inkling of remorse might help. Your cavalier attitude about the whole thing really doesn't make it look like it's your first time.

I realize that I'm pretty new around here and might be accused of having an agenda, but I am not at all pleased about this. I have bought quite a bit of stuff based on the reviews posted by you and skinnee on his site. Most of it turned out being decent stuff, but to find out that I'm spending money based on recommendations coming from two cheaters doesn't make me very happy.

[Dahmer]

I'd rather prevent my good friend from making the mistake in the first place..

True and apparently I misread/misunderstood what Vapor said..

[[XC] Oj101]

Oh wow. I haven't seen something this bad in quite awhile. All of those guys were huge in this community, and to find this out... well, it's quite sad. As others have said, Andre has been the subject of scrutiny before so I cannot say it comes as a complete surprise, but the others?




Even so, I am personally not of lifetime bans - though I do fully respect and understand the decision. So take my statement as more of a discussion on the general topic rather than this incident. It is an unpopular thing to say, but I am for reform instead of execution. It might be the Canadian in me talking in a room largely full of Americans, but that's just how I was raised. Canada has a much, much, much higher reform rate than the US, and I tend to think it's because reform is the goal of our penal programs rather than just punishment.

Similarly, I think that in incidents like this there should definitely be some punishment... but with a chance at reform. Go ahead and ban cheaters, strip off their champion status, and do not let them compete for a period of time. By all means cut off the freebies from any companies that are willing to comply. That is all necessary, without question. But rather than having a fully binary system (access or no access), maybe there is a third option.

After a period of time allow them back, but with restrictions. Maybe any contest they enter in the next year must be accompanied with a set of photographs of the accomplishment, or even video (which is much harder to fake). [To be honest I feel that should be a requirement for any high-level competition anyway, but that's another story]. Do not allow them to compete with hardware they received from a manufacturer (verified through the manufacturer, to the extent possible). Etc. What I'm getting at here is that I think people should be given a chance to earn their way back to our good graces.



Again, with that said, I do fully understand and respect the decision in this case. These are the rules we have in place and they should be respected and must be enforced. I speak of future rule changes and my position on the direction I would like to see them moved towards.

It is like life imprisonment, there is no chance for rehabilitation. Nobody can learn by getting a life-long ban.

[[XC] Oj101]

There are six guys. What do you mean "in the middle"?

Jeez hicookie looks gangster

From left to right, hicookie, pro, andre, nickshih, dinos22, don't know

[M.Beier]

OPB pulled some good runs back in the day in front of an audience, he had the skill.

So??? He also fell for temptation...

[saaya]

+1
the game been gettin real dirty for the past 2 years
people bendin over for a few $ free hw or a job

yeah...

THIS.

IS.

WHAT.

PEOPLE.

NEED.

TO.

UN-DER-STAND.

i think people understand it... its companies that dont WANT to understand this... its companies that create demand for cheating cause they want some guys they can send hardware and get a wr in return... they dont want to play the lottery when sending out samples, they want to BUY a wr pretty much... its only a matter of time until somebody fulfills their demands... if you create a certain environment its all about evolution, only takes some time until somebody adapts to it...
thats not meant as an excuse in any way, dont get me wrong!
im just saying, the problem isnt that much with the community and not entirely with the top enthusiasts, but a big part of it is manufacturers as well, which many people dont seem to realize...

im gonna shut up about this though as i have no idea how to improve this situation, so whats the point rambling about it huh? :/

Overclocking DOES take talent, however overclocking also means you have lots of $$$$. Without the $$$$ you are nothing.

I'm stuck with a bum CPU and it does not go further. I can't even keep up with similar CPU's.

wow... this is... so... soooo sad to read...
this is what overclocking has become, hasnt it?
and no, overclocking has NOTHING to do with money, nothing at all...

Because I don't care about what Joe Schmoe did in his basement with some LN2 and a couple of hours of free time?
I appreciate the effort put into this by enthusiasts around the globe. I appreciate the input I get when I need information regarding "xtreme systems". I don't appreciate it that my hobby is turning into yet another corporate pissing contest, with all associated problems.

Whatever, in the end, I still believe nobody will give a flying poop about this situation for more than a week.

thats how it should be imo... the weird part is how much attention those handpicked, corporate ln2 sessions get... its almost like with tv... people know its just tv, but they still somehow think its real and applies to them, same as all this corporate overclocking stuff...

Out of everyone, I think he's the most hardcore in regards to overclocking.

what? sorry, i like andre, but no, hes definitely not...

Your exactly right too. It is the same in almost anything as well. In bodybuilding nobody cared about the lightweights. They wanted to see the super heavy freaks of nature. In boxing they want to see the big guys kill each other etc etc.

yeah but thats the audience... you have your REAL athletes that compete for the sake of competing and pushing themselves and enjoying it, and you have attention wh0res that are only in it cause their mom or dad ignored them as a kid...
you dont have to be no1 to be good, and you dont have to be no1 to be an athlete... thats not what its about... not at all...

BUT where did they start?
I guarantee you that there was a day when all of these people were unknown and just experimenting in their homes on modest hardware..
No one was born with these skills,all learned and by the vast majority self taught thru trial and error.

sure, i still remember stumbling upon some small blog of a guy nicknamed "the chosen one" playing around with his rig and wondering how people got so high clocks out of their cpus until somebody told him they used subzero cooling

thx systemviper for posting the comments from skinee afro and hiwa here
is it just me or is anybody else confused how several people happened to ask andre for a score at about the same time? at least one of them said that he was OFFERED the score, which makes the whole thing sound really weird...
1. im shocked theyd ask or accept a score from somebody else
2. why did andre do this? nobody seems to ask why...
for the guys, sure, its obvious... but andre? whats his motivation in all this?
he wanted to help them? and by coincidence several people asking him for help at the same time? and this was the first time this ever happened?

I don't want to go too far OT... but lower level OC is often times more entertaining than the higher stuff.

Go grab an i3 and a 5830 and make it bark, wag it's tail and cry for supper

THAT is REAL overclocking imo...

I gave my opinion on the "what ifs" with doing this then went to sleep in another room some 45 minutes before skinnee uploaded the score and made it public.

Woke up the next morning and found out multiple scores were under investigation

friends dont let friends cheat

hiwa... if you read this... im really dissapointed in you man
and no, deleting the scores and going back to bench does NOT fix this...
i had a really great impression of you... HAD... :/

Lets say you've got a good friend and you're playing some game. He starts to cheat and you don't like it one bit.

You got two choices :
1) you talk some sense into him
2) you report him without him knowing about it

Result of choice 1 will get him banned and he'll probably learn his lesson and wont do it again.
Result of choice 2 will get him banned, you'll lose a good friend and pissed off people like that usually dont learn their lesson.

no, no1 should result in him not cheating and there wont be any consequences except for him later realizing what a good friend you are...

andre: ... what the hell dude?
seriously... i thought youd be smarter than this... what could you possibly get out of this?
some dirt on several top ocers so you could ask them for favors?

[[XC] Oj101]

Read through the thread, people talk of him as if he had zero skill and everything was smoke and mirrors behind the scenes

We'll never know what really went down, perhaps he got pissed off with the way overclocking was going and did something ridiculous to get himself banned and make a statement? He had plenty of skill and it seems unlikely that he didn't know the way that the AM3 scoring worked. I'd like to believe that that was purposefully editted incorrectly (if not some completely random bug caused by the system being unstable or something along those lines).

[BustaH]

Read through the thread, people talk of him as if he had zero skill and everything was smoke and mirrors behind the scenes

We'll never know what really went down, perhaps he got pissed off with the way overclocking was going and did something ridiculous to get himself banned and make a statement? He had plenty of skill and it seems unlikely that he didn't know the way that the AM3 scoring worked. I'd like to believe that that was purposefully editted incorrectly (if not some completely random bug caused by the system being unstable or something along those lines).

I have no doubt that all of them have skill, but greed has taken over, greed and ego are a very dangerous/ damaging combination we see it in all walks of life.

[INJViper]

What I don't understand is how all of them knew to contact Andre for a score?

[Cleatus]

I gave my opinion on the "what ifs" with doing this then went to sleep in another room some 45 minutes before skinnee uploaded the score and made it public.

Woke up the next morning and found out multiple scores were under investigation

I told him my thoughts on the matter and left the decision to him and went to bed. He was the one whose name was on it and he was the one who was trying to qualify for MOA.

So you were there and had knowledge of what was going on and chose to remain silent. Then when the shat hit the fan you do damage control?

One guy who did the least amount of damage gets toss'd under a bus, but the rest are treated very differently, this is not right. The punishment should be equal to all parties involved INCLUDING YOU.
You are a admin on one of the biggest overclocking sites on the planet, you of all people should have known better. Your only decision was to report the scores if he used them not go to bed and hide your head in the sand. You are just as guilty as the rest. In court you'd be treated just as harsh. But I see kangaroo court is in your favor today.

Just cause you pour syrup over crap dont make it pancakes

[crio]

I've been reading this hole thread from its begining and somehow i never felt surpised to hear about Andre doing something like that.
Many times in the past he slightly bent the rules in order to be ahead of the competition.He like some people before him he got consumed by his desire to always be No1.
Did we forget about last years "cheat" in the F1OC with the 762? NO
Did we forget about the Gigabyte Contest in which he used ES hardware when it was foriden? NO

Andre you are full of and many times you called good overclockers cheaters. Gues what,now they all laught at you........

[Sn0wm@n]

It is like life imprisonment, there is no chance for rehabilitation. Nobody can learn by getting a life-long ban.

stop it with your rehab plan ....

[h0bbes]

I dont think the most important point behind a life-long ban is learning!
Even though there is a feeling that this was just used as an opportunity to ban AY forever (maybe he deserves it - i wouldnt know), i dont think the punishments are too harsh at all. There should always be a strong stance against cheating.

[massman]

i think people understand it... its companies that dont WANT to understand this... its companies that create demand for cheating cause they want some guys they can send hardware and get a wr in return... they dont want to play the lottery when sending out samples, they want to BUY a wr pretty much... its only a matter of time until somebody fulfills their demands... if you create a certain environment its all about evolution, only takes some time until somebody adapts to it...
thats not meant as an excuse in any way, dont get me wrong!
im just saying, the problem isnt that much with the community and not entirely with the top enthusiasts, but a big part of it is manufacturers as well, which many people dont seem to realize...

Over the last couple of months I've began to understand exactly what you mean. Now, no one at HWBOT is a miracle worker, so I hope the community understands that whoever screwed up in the past (before hwbot), making manufacturers believe this is the legit way of dealing with the overclocking community, has made these mfcs convinced it can be all for them and nothing for us.

I'm pleased to see that many overclockers and enthusiasts in this thread are sharing your opinion on this topic and are more than willing to call faul play where needed. If it was up to me, things would've been fixed completely by now, but sadly enough I'm just a pion. A few more shocks and we'll get there, I'm sure.

On a sidenote: we also have to realize that some MFCs are turning their way in the right direction. Just think about it ... if someone told you 5 years ago that a major manufacturer would invest a load of money in live overclocking events all around the world, you would have offered him a taxi drive home because he was too drunk to walk home

[T_M]

Knowing that someone cheated and not saying something is very surprising behavior from you Vapor.

[Humminn55]

Your only decision was to report the scores if he used them not go to bed and hide your head in the sand. You are just as guilty as the rest. In court you'd be treated just as harsh.

The legal term you allude to is "accessory before the fact."



How accessory before the fact is defined:

An accessory must generally have knowledge that a crime is being, or will be committed. A person with such knowledge may become an accessory by helping or encouraging the criminal in some way, or simply by failing to report the crime to proper authority. The assistance to the criminal may be of any type, including emotional or financial assistance as well as physical assistance or concealment.



To be convicted of an accessory charge, the accused must generally be proved to have had actual knowledge that a crime was going to be, or had been, committed. Furthermore, there must be proof that the accessory knew that his or her action, or inaction, was helping the criminals commit the crime, or evade detection, or escape.

[Lastviking]

Jeez hicookie looks gangster

From left to right, hicookie, pro, andre, nickshih, dinos22, don't know

Last one is "Elmor"

[v0dka]

The legal term you allude to is "accessory before the fact."



How accessory before the fact is defined:

An accessory must generally have knowledge that a crime is being, or will be committed. A person with such knowledge may become an accessory by helping or encouraging the criminal in some way, or simply by failing to report the crime to proper authority. The assistance to the criminal may be of any type, including emotional or financial assistance as well as physical assistance or concealment.



To be convicted of an accessory charge, the accused must generally be proved to have had actual knowledge that a crime was going to be, or had been, committed. Furthermore, there must be proof that the accessory knew that his or her action, or inaction, was helping the criminals commit the crime, or evade detection, or escape.

Assumptions. Dont make them. How can you know what Vapor said at the time to discourage the use of this score?

However I'm curious to what he meant by "we discussed the what if's", like they were measuring the risk of being caught. But that's also an assumption.

Bottom line is that I think FUGGER is all over this matter and will take appropriate action. He did the right thing with AY and the others, and he did it very factual and without unnecessarily smearing dirt over the names of the people involved (which deserves applause).

[G.Foyle]

Read through the thread, people talk of him as if he had zero skill and everything was smoke and mirrors behind the scenes

I never said that Andre or OPB have no skills. I just said that the situation is amazingly similar, as a lot of people including for example George, trusted both Andre and OPB.

[CL3P20]

Andre had some special mods for the 480's ..unsure if this was partially the cause, but I have yet to see any others with "special" mod ..

+1 for massman and bot crew.. hero's.. for catching this before things got even uglier.

[systemviper]

After reading and following this on several fronts, this question is the one that bothers me the most, we know that some stuff happened here, we know who is involved to a point.
But just the idea that several people knew to go to Andre beggs the bigger question which is asked several times.

The 1st thing I thought. How do 3 guys competing all decide to contact Andre "Phone a Friend" Yang for a competition?

this question really scares me, because the implications are much bigger and would involve more people and more events. For there to be a group that knows where to get the "good stuff" implies a underground that passes info and results for the gain of the people "in the know" which would make this much more then this one incident...

THIS +1

The 1st thing I thought. How do 3 guys competing all decide to contact Andre "Phone a Friend" Yang for a competition?

This leads me to conclude one thing only... that Andre Yang was the 'go-to' man if you needed a dig out and a result. Does anyone know what price or benefit in kind is transferred?

What I don't understand is how all of them knew to contact Andre for a score?

Has the question been asked as to how they know to go to Andre to get a score? I mean it seems unlikely you'll just ask another 'top' ocer for a score because you were unhappy with your own, and when 3 maybe more people all request a score from Andre, then there is something seriously dirty happening around here. Is this a case Andre letting people know you can get a score from this? It seems a great number of people know this is going on and nothing is being done about it.

[biohead]

Wouldn't surprise me if Andre Yang has been playing the local dealer for a while now.

[BobyTT]

That's true. May be this is going for years?

[CL3P20]

But just the idea that several people knew to go to Andre beggs the bigger question which is asked several times.


this question really scares me, because the implications are much bigger and would involve more people and more events. For there to be a group that knows where to get the "good stuff" implies a underground that passes info and results for the gain of the people "in the know" which would make this much more then this one incident...

kinda how its been seen by many..I think. was having Andre run benchies a way around NDA for disclosing mods..?