Solar and Wind power..Lets brainstorm this issue

[disturbed13]

Not true.. A falacy that many beleive..
I looked into this. The difference in solar gain between where I live in NH and Phoenix,AZ that is called the best area for solar is all of one hour per day.
A factor, yes, huge factor,no.
Of course I might have to call you and have your young legs go climb the ladder in the winter and broom the snow off the panels on the roof so they will work..

im going to chime in on this
since we are all geeks if anyone really wanted to it could be done
the snow issue really isnt an issue to me
i would just have a motorized shovel push all of the snow up to the top of the roof (which i would have it be metal) and under the top section of roof there would be heating coils that would be used to melt the snow
you could take that one step further and have all of your gutters collect the melt/rain water to use. either it in the toilets or watering the lawn or even to go through a tank-less water heater to melt and clean off the solar panels
but i live in a valley
a small one
but none-the-less, its the Ohio valley
i live in Evansville IN and its not always sunny
so go with a hybrid system
throw up a couple of wind mills, but not just the average run of the mill wind mill
take a good hard look for the ones shaped like a double helix
they are low impact and wont kill all of the birds
less for you to clean up during a wind storm
so with all of that taken care of next is the temp of your house
since almost everyone is crunching, set your thermostat to cooling in the winter and make it kick on when it hits 80F or something like that
that way you will maintain a constant temp and you wont need to heat your place theoretically
also convert your ac unit over to geo-thermal heating and cooling
this will also help year around
another thing to not ignore is to make a ultra-low power Linux based home automation system
to turn lights on and off, and to open and close the shades in the winter/summer
the whole point in this would be to have the system close the shades in the heat of the day for the summer (or open them in the winter for the sun) to also help control the homes temp
no one wants to walk into a dark house
which is why there should be a couple of lights controlled as well, interior and exterior
with all of these changes you should see a change in your bill
but sadly the wind and the sun arent always out or blowing
so you should also invest in a 'battery barn' to store the excess power from the sources
and then if those are full have it be supplied to the rest of the neighborhood
and start to turn your houses power meter backward
now all of that hardware might be close to the 75K mark
but some people have that much in hardware crunching 24/7
thats just my thoughts on the subject

[AceNZ]

For DIYers, here's a link to a place that has solar electric panels for US$2/watt or less:
http://www.sunelec.com/
(scroll down for an inventory / price summary)
Or checkout Wholesale Solar's by-the-pallet pricing:
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/bulk-s...he-pallet.html

For water heating, it's a bad idea to use solar electric. Solar thermal is much more efficient. The tube-based technology is pretty cost-effective. For example the ones from Apricus:
http://www.apricus.com/html/solar_collector.htm

Anyone considering a grid-tie system should be aware that in the event your power company has an outage, odds are that you will be unable to use the cells on your roof to provide power for your home, even with appropriate disconnect and battery systems -- at least that's the policy of PG&E in California.

Also, when considering ROI, I think it's mistake to assume past history is a good indicator of what the future is going to be like with power costs. For me personally, one motivator for moving to solar is a guarantee that I will have some power available. If power input costs jump (peak oil, Middle East unrest, etc, etc), power companies may resort to brown-outs or other forms of rationing instead of raising prices to potentially astronomic levels--or prices could go up much faster than anyone is currently anticipating. Having power in the event of a disaster is another consideration.

I looked at getting a generator, but decided against it after a friend of mine asked someone on the local city council what they would do if there was a long-term power outage in the area. He said they would find people who had generators, and simply take them to be used where they were "needed". Granted, I live in New Zealand now, but I suspect it would be the same or worse in the US -- fortunately, seizure would be much more difficult to do with solar.

Oh, and battery technology is another interesting area. I wonder if anything homebuilt could be made that's as good or better than the store-bought stuff, which is insanely expensive.

[anubis]

http://www.helixwind.com/en/product.php

30yr warranty on these, S322/S594 ($9k/16k) are one of the nicest and eyepleasing wind generators ive seen.

[Movieman]

http://www.helixwind.com/en/product.php

30yr warranty on these, S322/S594 ($9k/16k) are one of the nicest and eyepleasing wind generators ive seen.

Correction:
30 year design life
FIVE year warranty..
But it does look interesting, just not practical for me or many others.
It doesn't start producing power till you have 11.1MPH winds and thats uncommon here in Cow Hampshire unless your up on top of Mt. Washington

[STEvil]

I suggest building one using a kit. Blades from that website I linked a while back, find a mast, attach a cheap alternator or two out of a junk yard.

[anubis]

Doh, thats all i can say. Gotta read more i guess, before posting at least

Anyhow,

http://www.awea.org/faq/usresource.html <- average wind speeds in USA.

[AceNZ]

So, how cheap do solar panels have to be before they start to be appealing?

[D_A]

Free is appealing

[trn]

http://www.awea.org/faq/usresource.html <- average wind speeds in USA.

Pretty abysmal for us in the south eastern half of the US

[CrazyNutz]

Dunno if you guy's know this but TEC's can generate power. Just hook up your DMM to one, and apply a thermal diff to the surfaces (hot one side/cold the other). The greater the thermal differental the greater the power generation.

[Movieman]

So, how cheap do solar panels have to be before they start to be appealing?

Just my personal opinion but for the math to work they need to drop by more than 1/2..and that "ain't gonna happen Capt'n"
It needs to get to a 10 year or less payback not the current 25-26 year payback on parts that won't last that long.

[Gamekiller]

I suggest building one using a kit. Blades from that website I linked a while back, find a mast, attach a cheap alternator or two out of a junk yard.

car alternator? I'm not sure on this but I believe I've read that car alternators are terrible for wind powered generators due to the very high RPMs needed. I'm not totally sure on that though.

[Blauhung]

Just my personal opinion but for the math to work they need to drop by more than 1/2..and that "ain't gonna happen Capt'n"
It needs to get to a 10 year or less payback not the current 25-26 year payback on parts that won't last that long.

and with the way efficiency and power/dollar is going with solar, anything you get now will be far outclassed 3-4 years down the line by something that you can spend 1/2 as much on.

Solar power is going through its own period of Moore's law type expansion.

[STEvil]

car alternator? I'm not sure on this but I believe I've read that car alternators are terrible for wind powered generators due to the very high RPMs needed. I'm not totally sure on that though.

Gear ratios.


As to using TEC's to generate power, they are extremely inefficient.

[AceNZ]

Just my personal opinion but for the math to work they need to drop by more than 1/2..and that "ain't gonna happen Capt'n"
It needs to get to a 10 year or less payback not the current 25-26 year payback on parts that won't last that long.

Drop by half from what starting point? 10 yr payback with what sort of cost model?

Current *average* prices for panels are $4/watt, but you can get deals at $2/watt or less:
http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_panels.htm

$1/watt is on the horizon with new manufacturing techniques from companies such as Nanosolar (http://www.nanosolar.com/).

Assuming $1/watt, a flat $0.15/KWh conventional electricity cost and an average of 6 hrs/day of sun, payback is about 3 yrs for the panels alone; add another $1/watt for installation, inverters, etc, brings it to roughly 6 yrs. At today's prices of $2/watt for the panels plus the same $1/watt for installation, payback would be about 9 yrs -- not counting any federal or state tax credits (which can be considerable).

Payback periods are generally lower for solar thermal, if you're replacing electric water heaters (rather than gas).

Of course, if you live somewhere that doesn't get much sun, and/or that has much less expensive power, then the payback period would suffer accordingly.

Rather than panel costs dropping by half, another way to look at it is how likely is it that your local power costs will double? Things like an oil shock, more war or political instability in the Mideast, or even just a big burst of inflation, could cause power prices to double much more quickly than is generally expected.

[CrazyNutz]

You can use a car Alternator, however not without modifications, first thing is change the electro magnet rotor to a permanate magnet. Also you can mod the stator windings to work with low RPM. Gear's are a bad idea as they will add friction.

This site sells moded alternators, and parts:
http://www.windbluepower.com/category_s/1.htm

[Ao1]

2008 Solar Technologies Market Report 4.3MB
Renewable Enegry Data Book 10.4MB

[josh1980]

Drop by half from what starting point? 10 yr payback with what sort of cost model?

Current *average* prices for panels are $4/watt, but you can get deals at $2/watt or less:
http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_panels.htm

$1/watt is on the horizon with new manufacturing techniques from companies such as Nanosolar (http://www.nanosolar.com/).

Assuming $1/watt, a flat $0.15/KWh conventional electricity cost and an average of 6 hrs/day of sun, payback is about 3 yrs for the panels alone; add another $1/watt for installation, inverters, etc, brings it to roughly 6 yrs. At today's prices of $2/watt for the panels plus the same $1/watt for installation, payback would be about 9 yrs -- not counting any federal or state tax credits (which can be considerable).

Payback periods are generally lower for solar thermal, if you're replacing electric water heaters (rather than gas).

Of course, if you live somewhere that doesn't get much sun, and/or that has much less expensive power, then the payback period would suffer accordingly.

Rather than panel costs dropping by half, another way to look at it is how likely is it that your local power costs will double? Things like an oil shock, more war or political instability in the Mideast, or even just a big burst of inflation, could cause power prices to double much more quickly than is generally expected.

Few things...

1. You will not get 100% output for 6 hours every day for most of the US.(I do acknowledge that the poster I am quoting is in New Zealand).
2. Electricity in some places is ALOT less than 15c/kwh, some as low as 5.9c/kwh.
3. $1/watt for installation, inverter, etc is significantly under cost. I saw a 15 watt panel(just the panel, nothing else) on sale for $90. A 60 watt solar kit was $279(and this was for a 12VDC output, not 120VAC).

Solar is just not economical. The reality of solar and wind at the present time is that any money you spend on it is solely for the "moral or ethical" reasons. There is no system in place at the current time that makes it cost effective for the consumer. Solar and wind energy is something for consumers that are future-looking to have an interest in somewhere from 2-10 years from now.

[AceNZ]

1. You will not get 100% output for 6 hours every day for most of the US.(I do acknowledge that the poster I am quoting is in New Zealand).

True. As I said, the cost model varies depending on where you live. It's 6 hrs where I live, but the US varies widely, from 3.5 to 6 hrs/day.

2. Electricity in some places is ALOT less than 15c/kwh, some as low as 5.9c/kwh.

Yes, but in some places, such as most of California, it's also much higher.

3. $1/watt for installation, inverter, etc is significantly under cost. I saw a 15 watt panel(just the panel, nothing else) on sale for $90. A 60 watt solar kit was $279(and this was for a 12VDC output, not 120VAC).

Prices vary widely. For example, here's a link to a 100W panel for $78; that's $0.78/KW:
http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_pa...oducts_id=1035

The same is true for installation and supporting infrastructure costs. Also, the larger the system you build, the lower the average cost per W will be.

Solar is just not economical.

It depends largely on where you live and how much effort you're willing to put into shopping around -- plus, of course, tax credits. The US Federal tax credit alone at the moment is something like 30% of installed cost.

I'm not trying to say solar is for everyone, but there are places where it makes economic sense.

[Bobsama]

Correction:
30 year design life
FIVE year warranty..
But it does look interesting, just not practical for me or many others.
It doesn't start producing power till you have 11.1MPH winds and thats uncommon here in Cow Hampshire unless your up on top of Mt. Washington

Dave,

Just get on your phone and start talking. You'll have 11.1MPH winds in no time!

Your friend,
Bob






But seriously, I don't think wind power is the answer for 99% of us. What windmills will work are too small and don't provide enough power. Copper and steel can be quite expensive.

[SMTB1963]

Few things...

1. You will not get 100% output for 6 hours every day for most of the US.(I do acknowledge that the poster I am quoting is in New Zealand).
2. Electricity in some places is ALOT less than 15c/kwh, some as low as 5.9c/kwh.
3. $1/watt for installation, inverter, etc is significantly under cost. I saw a 15 watt panel(just the panel, nothing else) on sale for $90. A 60 watt solar kit was $279(and this was for a 12VDC output, not 120VAC).

Not to be argumentative, but...

1. Some US locations WILL approach 100% for >6hrs/day.
2. Electricity in some places is ALOT MORE than 15c/kwh.
3. AFAIK, AceNZ isn't talking about a setup designed to keep a boat battery charged. From what I've seen, If you're looking at >=4kW systems, $1 per watt for installation+non-panel equipment isn't too far off.

If I read AceNZ's post correctly, one of the points was that using a snapshot of today's static prices as the basis for determining an ROI has some problems associated with it. For instance, we currently pay ~12-13 cents/kWh (depending on usage) - which is a little less than DOUBLE what we paid 10 years ago! If I'm looking at a long lived asset purchase (today) where $/kWh is an input in determining ROI, a flat $.15/kWh over 8-10 years looks pretty damn conservative from where I'm sitting.

I'd further argue that assuming a nice gentle, uniform rise in electricity rates has problems as well. While I don't agree that an "oil shock" or "mideaset unrest" would radically affect short-term electricity prices in the US, there are plenty of scenarios that could cause prices to sharply increase. I think AceNZ correctly points out that if you believe one of these scenarios is possible, it can significantly change the resulting ROI. You don't even need wars/natural disasters/acts of god/zombie apocalypses...just a couple of douche-bags in Armani on an energy trading floor in Houston.

Solar is just not economical. The reality of solar and wind at the present time is that any money you spend on it is solely for the "moral or ethical" reasons. There is no system in place at the current time that makes it cost effective for the consumer. Solar and wind energy is something for consumers that are future-looking to have an interest in somewhere from 2-10 years from now.

I'm "future-looking" (I think), and I have an interest in solar NOW. In fact, there's a kit sitting in the garage that arrived while I was at a client - and morals/ethics had very very little to do with its purchase. The primary motivation was to educate myself about solar energy systems through some basic, hands-on experience...with an eye toward becoming a more informed consumer if/when the economics for a larger scale system make more sense. At least that's the rationalization I've come up with - the wife says I just wanted a new toy to play with.

Regards

[STEvil]

You can use a car Alternator, however not without modifications, first thing is change the electro magnet rotor to a permanate magnet. Also you can mod the stator windings to work with low RPM. Gear's are a bad idea as they will add friction.

This site sells moded alternators, and parts:
http://www.windbluepower.com/category_s/1.htm

You can do it a lot simpler than that.

Just use different pulley sizes and belt to change the gear ratio. Secondly use an inverter rather than changing the magnet and/or rotor (although you can do that as well.

Thirdly you can build your own "alternator" using a permanent magnet and a roll of copper wire if you're bored that runs at ~120v DC.. then you just need to toss together a simple circuit to switch that to AC power... or charge ~10 batteries in series.

[D_A]

Actually you can make AC with a roll of copper wire and a permanent magnet if you want to, but the frequency is directly dependant on how fast you spin your rig.

[nn_step]

since I love adding data:

Let us assume Solar power for a second:


Assuming we value the energy produced at 15 cents per kilowatt hour
or if you like, we can use actual numbers based on location

Thus unless costs are $2,250 per kilowatt of solar installed [or you live in the top 2 tiers]
It is not cost effective, for the majority of us


Up next is wind



Which given the exact same metric and math, simplifies to unless you live in the TOP tier, then it is not cost effective.


Any questions?

[Ao1]

^
I’d agree that the current economics of solar power are dubious even with subsidy; however in the bigger picture one hour of sunlight failing on the earth’s surface is enough to supply the world with all its energy needs for one year.

The USA is actually well geographically positioned to capitalise on this even with today’s technology.

“The total land area suitable for PV is enormous and will not limit PV deployment. For example, a current estimate of the total roof area suitable for PV in the United States is approximately 6 billion square meters, even after eliminating 35% to 80% of roof space to account for panel shading (e.g., by trees) and suboptimal roof orientations. With current PV performance, this area has the potential for more than 600 GW of capacity, which could generate more than 20% of U.S. electricity demand. Beyond rooftops, there are many opportunities for installing PV on underutilized real estate such as parking structures, awnings, airports, freeway margins, and farmland set-asides. The land area required to supply all end-use electricity in the United States using PV is about 0.6% of the country's land area (181 m2 per person) or about 22% of the “urban area” footprint (Denholm and Margolis 2008c).”

Without stimulus the technology will not develop as it’s much easier to extract cheap fossil fuels. There are plenty of technology innovations on their way however (like nana tubes that can better capture and focus photons) that will soon change the scales of economy.

Where there is a will there is a way