TEC Chilled Fish Tank PC

[xkon]

Ultrasonic2 thought it'd be a good idea to post a worklog here. So here goes!
I've glanced into TEC a lot before and have just decided to jump in with a TEC water chiller. I want to bypass my condensation issues by using this in a mineral oil submerged tank.

Specs:
i7 920
SX58H7 Mobo
1200w Thermaltake or Antec SG-850 (possibly a Corsair 1200 and add Meanwell PSU)
6GB OCZ DDR3 1866 (might become 12GB as soon as ram goes down)
160GB Intel SSD G2
2x GTX 480's in SLI
3x 360 rads or 2x 480 rads + 2x 240 rads.
1x DDC, 1x D4, need one more pump.
Swiftech microres, also looking into a res for a d4 pump.

Possible cooler list:
Galaxy GTX470 razor heatsinks
Scythe Musashi (if they are single slot)
Aquacomputer GPU waterblock

EK supreme (might swap to another for aesthetics)
Skived copper heatsink
Thermalright Ultra 120 Limited Edition Copper

I have a few ideas on how to go about doing this, and wanted to get some input on them. Heck you're welcome to throw in your own.

1. Triple Loop System
Chiller loop using antifreeze + water: Chiller > Pump > CPU > GPU's > Res > Chiller
Hotside loop using normal watercooling: Radiator > Pump > Hotside block > Res > Rad
Mineral Oil Tank: Rads > Pump > Tank

2. Dual Loop System
Chiller to mineral oil tank loop: Chiller > Pump > CPU > GPU > Rest of Tank
Hotside loop using normal watercooling: Radiator > Pump > Hotside block > Res > Rad

Triple loop for best temps, but hardest to maintain.

Dual Loop can be the cheapest and only need worry about leaks from the hotside loop, but viscosity change is still up in the air. Also possible condensation on the fish tank, but I have that covered too as I will be placing this in a bigger tank, filled with water, and fishies.

I want to use a Meanwell PSU, but am unsure at the moment. I'm thinking about modding my cables on the PSU instead. I like the Corsair design because it's straight PCB to the Modular cable instead of the Thermaltake design that has wires running from the main PCB to the modular PCB. Would that be ok? If not, any recommendations on a meanwell PSU for 4x 300Qmax TEC's?

People keep mentioning C.O.P. and the concept still illudes me a bit. I'm doing more research, but it seems less voltage with more TEC's = better? I'm already thinking of adding 8 TECs to this, but will get to that later.

You guys are pretty hardcore, and I value your input. Any suggestions, comments, or questions are much appreciated.

Teaser pic.

[imersa]

This sounds like quite the project you have lined up!
The idea of this inside a bigger real fish tank sounds crazy. Dont go killing any fish !
When can we see more updates?

[TJ TRICHEESE]

wow great idea

[zipdogso]

People keep mentioning C.O.P. and the concept still illudes me a bit. I'm doing more research, but it seems less voltage with more TEC's = better? I'm already thinking of adding 8 TECs to this, but will get to that later.

C.O.P. is a funny thing....

There are those that go on about unity (output power = input power.) and don't understand COP and they say it is impossible to have a COP greater than 1 etc etc. They are basically idiots.

But COP is the amount of cooling achieved relative to input power. People automatically think this is output relative to input it isnt.
You need to think of the cooling achieved as another input.The output of a TEC is the heat that comes off the hotside and that is the amount of cooling achieved PLUS the input power.
So you see TECs do obey unity rules and that COP is something totally different.
COP of a TEC is for most people is less than 1 - that is the cooling you achieve is less than your input power.

Once you start to undervolt a TEC less 50% input power the COP starts to rise once you get less than 40% it rises quite dramatically if you look at manufacturers graphs COP of 5 or higher seem achievable unfortunately in the real world it is not quite that simple. it is only achievable at very low Dt usually less than 10ºC.
So what's Dt....it the diffence between the working temp of the TEC hotside and it's coldside (the coldside temp being the max. amount of cooling achievable.). Since the working temp of the hotside can easily be 10ºC greater then ambient under most normal circumstances (especially when using a rad to cool your hotside.) a COP of 5 gets you a cooling which is greater than ambient....some cooling that is !
Hence the need for good hotside cooling preferably NOT with a rad.
Rads might constitute as good cooling for an air system the same can't be said for TECs but that is what most people use and that is why few see the higher COP ratings.

One of the main problem with TEC is that Dt is not as controllable as one would like and depends on numerous factors.

The best most can hope for is a COP > 1 but not very much greater than one.
To get there you have to use a bit less than 50% input power the problem then is the working Q is much lower and to get the Q back up to a reasonable level you have to increase the number of TECs you use.

It should be noted here that is little point is going silly with massive numbers of TECs you are better running a smaller number well than a greater number badly. Suffice to say you also need to look at the higher end of the Qmax basically as large as you can reasonable acquire.

[Ultrasonic2]

hes getting my old chiller after a refurbishment. i sold it for 100$ i must have been crazy but it's good to get it out of the garage

[xkon]

I'm still working on the logistics for getting the desired motherboard tray into the case. I'm thinking acrylic, or rattle canning a cut up motherboard tray/case. Does mineral oil eat through cheap paint?
Also waiting to finalize a couple things, like the heatsinks/waterblocks for the video cards/CPU, and of course waiting for that cool chiller from Ultrasonic2. I need to be a little patient on this project and follow through. I'm hoping a work log will help a lot with that.

Thanks for the info Zipdogso. That does help a bit. I think I really do need to get my hands on a meanwell PSU then. I can control the voltage a little better right? I wanted to do a 12v 1000 watt into 4 outputs unit, but not sure that if that exist (saw mostly single output). For better CoP should I do something like a 5v - 6v unit? Are 300Qmax TECs ok? ;D

Are there any controllers that might work with TEC's, like those doohickies that undervolts the fans?

I'm sure this is a very touchy subject, but what if I said screw CoP, I just want the most cooling power. Would I get any performance gains if I threw one of Ultrasonic's TEC direct Die blocks into the mix?
ie. Chiller hotside is cooled with an array of rads, TEC Direct Die waterblock is cooled by the TEC chiller, and the CPU is cooled by the TEC Direct Die waterblock.
essentially "stacking" the TEC one on top of the other. I'm sure it's not efficient, but would that run colder? any possible numbers on how much colder or more horribly efficient that'd be?

[zipdogso]

I'm still working on the logistics for getting the desired motherboard tray into the case. I'm thinking acrylic, or rattle canning a cut up motherboard tray/case. Does mineral oil eat through cheap paint?
Also waiting to finalize a couple things, like the heatsinks/waterblocks for the video cards/CPU, and of course waiting for that cool chiller from Ultrasonic2. I need to be a little patient on this project and follow through. I'm hoping a work log will help a lot with that.

Thanks for the info Zipdogso. That does help a bit. I think I really do need to get my hands on a meanwell PSU then. I can control the voltage a little better right? I wanted to do a 12v 1000 watt into 4 outputs unit, but not sure that if that exist (saw mostly single output). For better CoP should I do something like a 5v - 6v unit? Are 300Qmax TECs ok? ;D

Are there any controllers that might work with TEC's, like those doohickies that undervolts the fans?

I'm sure this is a very touchy subject, but what if I said screw CoP, I just want the most cooling power. Would I get any performance gains if I threw one of Ultrasonic's TEC direct Die blocks into the mix?
ie. Chiller hotside is cooled with an array of rads, TEC Direct Die waterblock is cooled by the TEC chiller, and the CPU is cooled by the TEC Direct Die waterblock.
essentially "stacking" the TEC one on top of the other. I'm sure it's not efficient, but would that run colder? any possible numbers on how much colder or more horribly efficient that'd be?

Without meaning to sound condescending....it would appear to me you need to read up on basic electric circuits....once you fully understand basic circuits i.e. wiring in parallel and series and even series groups in parallel you will see how to wire multiple TECs and be able to choose the correct PSU. The way you wire your TECs can make a project easier/cheaper or more difficult/expensive.
Basically i am saying you dont need a power supply with 4 outputs though they do exist.
In a project like this I would not worry too much about shooting for a big COP.
I think your objective should be a good cold temp for that you will need a high Dt so you will need to use an input power nearer to or at the "standard" 75% power i.e. a normal 127 couple TEC unit at 12v input.
The Key to good TEC usage is a well cooled hotside since this is the temp your Dt is taken from and determines you lowest possible temp. If you can supply the hotside with cooled coolant via another TEC setup it can sometimes pay dividends. Elloquin is thinking along these lines.

[malkiewicz]

Any Updates:...

[CoNtAcT]

hey, anyone here?

[xkon]

Sorry guys, work has been keeping me busy. I need to take my mind off things for a while so hopefully I'll get to play with this thing on the weekend. I've been looking for a motherboard tray that will fit inside well, but there are none out there. I'd have to mod it, and I know if I mod it will be ghettofied. Anyone know of a good place to order custom fabricated acrylic? lexan? plexiglass? I'm even thinking powder coated aluminum or steel.
I'm also still waiting on news from Ultra about the status of the cooler. I'm hoping he's not too busy with his TEC direct die coolers, and finds some time to finish it. Patience though, the parts list is still not complete. Also, still learning about stuff, like basic circuits. Thanks for the extra motivation though. I'll be sure to make time for this project.

[xkon]

There's a delay on the chiller now, but that gives me time to decide if i want to add direct die TEC also. I wonder how much power I'll be pulling from the wall. Must calculate.
I have my order all prepped for aquacomputer parts too, but it all hinges upon my cheezy motherboard and it's proprietary mounting system.
4x 3x120mm rads
2x gtx480 fc waterblocks
2x single slot brackets
1x DDC pump cover (maybe 2)

[hello im sean]

is there a chance that the mineral oil could seep under the cpu/gpu chips and insulate heat between the pins? it would make any cooling over top the chip useless if the underside is overheating.. i heard this happens with higher wattage chips, because i was considering undertaking a similar build as you

[hello im sean]

So anything new with the project?

[xkon]

Sorry guys for not having been around lately. I've hopped on to see how Skinnee's gtx480 waterblock thread was doing, but haven't really done much else on the forums. Truth be told, lame as it is, I've been planning a cheezy trip to Chicago, and after 7 years of refusing to play, just started up World of Warcraft. *sigh* I know, lame.
Ultra just let me know that the chiller is prepped and ready to deploy so I need to get up off my butt and make the motherboard tray that I need. ah yes, and a few drawing/ideas I have need to get thrown at you peeps.

[xkon]

options...
1. 2 loops.
one for the hotside of the tec's
one to chill the mineral oil and try to cool the whole PC using normal heatsinks with lots of fans to circulate the oil.
possible issues with this, as someone previously stated, are that the oil's viscosity will change becoming thicker as it gets cooler. need fan power to push the oil, might end up killing lots of fans.
2. 3 loops.
one for the hotside
one for the coldside to the CPU/GPU waterblocks
one for the oil
best performance, most risk, can be very expensive.

this is a 24/7 system so i'd like to keep CoP as efficient as i can. very much excited for the cooler that should be on the way soon!