Best performing/value SSD or duo, at 40-100GB?

[naokaji]

Are you addressing post 25 (sorry I deleted and re-arranged a bunch of stuff)

Yeah I was referring to post 25, but as becomes apparent now it doesn't matter as there is no trim in raid.
Stumbled over below on the ocz forum:

ok this e-mail I recived from Intel states that Trim is allowed when one SSD is non member raid drive, only single Trim commands pass through.

Hello Dallin, Thank you for contacting Intel Customer Support. I saw the link, unfortunately that information is not accurate. The first paragraph of the articles states: “To the joy of those with Intel Chipsets and SSDs, the 9.6.0.1014 version of the Intel’s Rapid Storage Technology driver now enables TRIM for every SSD in the RAID array, across all volume types except RAID 5.” Such affirmation seems to be based on the “Help” option of the Intel(R) Rapid Storage Technology version 9.6 when installed. However, that is something that Intel will fix/correct/re-write in the next days at the “Help” option of the application, the statement is the TRIM is supported on SSD’s when they are not part of a RAID array. We would like to insist that the information at http://www.intel.com/support/chipset.../CS-022304.htm is the accurate one. Sincerely, Andrew SIntel Technical Support A representative of Intel may subsequently contact you (via email) in order to obtain your feedback on the quality of support you received. Your feedback is very valuable and will allow us to improve our service. If you do not wish to participate, simply delete the survey email Intel is a registered trademark of Intel Corporation or its subsidiaries in the United States and other countries. *Other names and brands may be claimed as the property of others. <===== Received from s_pro_gis@hotmail.com on 2010-03-25-21.34.33.000000 ======> here is the link

So the trim in raid was wrong, which rules out the raid idea.

Which leaves the x25m and OWC option, performance of the OWC appears solid, but 50GB (before formatting) is pretty damn small, so the x25m remains a good option, unless you would be willing to stretch the budget to a 100GB OWC.
But there is also the cheaper Sandforce 1200, review of Corsair sandforce ssd.

[Computurd]

So the trim in raid was wrong, which rules out the raid idea.

i wouldn't say that. ocz vertex have Garbage Collection feature that is a TRIM workaround. it runs independent of the OS and keeps yer drives clean as a whistle
GC=TRIM for raid 0

[jalyst]

i wouldn't say that. ocz vertex have Garbage Collection feature that is a TRIM workaround. it runs independent of the OS and keeps yer drives clean as a whistle
GC=TRIM for raid 0

yeah came across GC in my readings, but OCZ isn't the only one that implements "GC-like" features now right?
Pretty sure some of the SF reviews I was reading mentioned something along the same lines....

[Computurd]

any idillinx ssd. many out there! you are right. i have a friend with some mushkins and he LOVES them.

[jalyst]

but then price will be a issue for most sandforce based ssds as they have lots of "spare" nand to reduce the negative impacts of usage.

Interesting point, wonder if they'll loose out to indilinx and postville based drives in the longer term as result of that...

The x25m is 80GB, so you would have some more headroom there, intel limited max write speeds artificially to make the x25e look a bit better, but in worst case situations where other ssds tank like crazy the x25 (both m and e) just keep going which makes them overall very attractive drives.

Interesting point, wonder why that is exactly, just more mature controller/fw?

^yep, they should scale to the same extent in raid.

Same extent? X25-V should have a notable edge over 2x 30GB Vertex!

What does "TRIM support in RAID mode for drives that not part of a RAID volume" mean?
http://www.intel.com/support/chipset.../CS-022304.htm

[naokaji]

Interesting point, wonder if they'll loose out to indilinx and postville based drives in the longer term as result of that...

Interesting point, wonder why that is exactly, just more mature controller/fw?

Same extent? X25-V should have a notable edge over 2x 30GB Vertex!

What does "TRIM support in RAID mode for drives that not part of a RAID volume" mean?
http://www.intel.com/support/chipset.../CS-022304.htm

The Indlinx drives will either be relegated to the budget corner or discontinued, hard to predict which one it will be. Intel and Samsung should both have new ssds out later this year, based on experience their previous ones will just disappear.

Really not sure what causes them to suck less in worst case scenarios, it seems related to how the controller / fw deals with NCQ, but thats just a educated guess.

What I meant is that they both come with the same ups and downs if you raid them.

You can have the sata controller in the chipset set to raid mode and set up a raid array with some drives and have the ssd hooked up to the same controller but not as part of the raid array, like for example if you have a single ssd as a boot drive and 2x 1TB mechanical drives in raid 1 for storage on one and the same controller.

[jalyst]

You can have the sata controller in the chipset set to raid mode and set up a raid array with some drives and have the ssd hooked up to the same controller but not as part of the raid array, like for example if you have a single ssd as a boot drive and 2x 1TB mechanical drives in raid 1 for storage on one and the same controller.

LOL, is that all that means...
Well that's def. not TRIM support for RAID via intel's new ICH10 drivers, LAME.
Hope they still have plans!

[jalyst]

@Computurd & SteveRo: can I get a response to this please? Thank-you!

any idillinx ssd. many out there! you are right. i have a friend with some mushkins and he LOVES them.

But Indilinx isn't the only controller that implements "GC-like" functionality?

True, no trim in raid yet.
Yes, hard choice between your three options - from conservative to more ballsy and xtreme - x25-m, 2x x25-v, 2xowc50's.
Is cost a factor, option 3 is twice the cost of option 1 and 2.
Just to confirm, your planning to use ich10?

Is there any indication that "GC-like" support (TRIM for RAID) will be out for postvillle based drives soon?
So 2x X25-V and 1x X25-M are the same price, but the former performs slightly better?
Mercury twice the cost! Don't you mean $/GB is almost twice, not all-up right?
Yes if I go more than one SSD, it'd be done via ICH10 (Q57 based mobo).

If I could be sure that 50GB is enough capacity I'd pick Mercury out of those three options.
Even though it's poor value compared to the other two....

[Biker]

But Indilinx isn't the only controller that implements "GC-like" functionality?

At the moment, yes it is.

If there are others they are currently insufficiently documented / researched to be sure.


Also the OWC 50GB does look the best bang for buck (especially with sequential write performance) but as many have so far said the long term performance and reliability both have a big question mark over them...

The X25-M is really fast for OS use but personally I would prefer SLC for OS but the cost is ridiculous!

[jalyst]

Thanks for addressing my question to Computurd...
SteveRo yours is still outstanding if you've got a minute?
Thank-you!

At the moment, yes it is.
If there are others they are currently insufficiently documented / researched to be sure.

Aren't you forgetting SF-1200/1500?

Also the OWC 50GB does look the best bang for buck (especially with sequential write performance) but as many have so far said the long term performance and reliability both have a big question mark over them...

Certainly not best bang for buck.

Not worried about LT reliability, that's less likely to be an issue, but LT performance may rear it's ugly head.
If it's auto maintenance features don't work as well as expected...

The X25-M is really fast for OS use but personally I would prefer SLC for OS but the cost is ridiculous!

SLC is really only worthwhile for enterprise use.
MLC is far more reliable nowadays compared to yesteryear.

[SteveRo]

Regarding cost?
Correction on what I said earlier!
The OWC 50gb drive is $238.
That's about the same a x25-m or 2x x25-v.
I wonder - is 2x x25-v faster than a single OWC 50?

[Biker]

Aren't you forgetting SF-1200/1500?

The Sandforce implementation of GC is called "Durawrite" and, as I said, there really is not enough data out there to make a call on it yet...

So, like I said, the OWC 50gb looks fastest on paper but there are big question marks about how this translates to real world performance and especially real world performance over time.

2x X25-v's are awesome but currently lack Trim (just look at Stevero's results), and a single X25-M 80gb has acess to Trim but is slower than the OWC and a 2x X25-v setup...

Steve, the OWC does look faster on paper but is it really?

I was going to grab 4 to test but then I saw a slew of Sandforce benches all over the net which fell well short of stated performance... especially with regard to sequential rates... so it was back to sit on the fence some more for me

[Computurd]

well they seem to have answered your questions above^^
yes, the GC from iddilinx is definitely unique and very very well proven.

[jalyst]

Regarding cost?
Correction on what I said earlier!
The OWC 50gb drive is $238.
That's about the same a x25-m or 2x x25-v.
I wonder - is 2x x25-v faster than a single OWC 50?

Yeah that's what I thought, all similar prices.
Surely the 2x X25-V would be faster, cept maybe sustained write?
But then there's still the uncertainty about TRIM support.

[jalyst]

I was going to grab 4 to test but then I saw a slew of Sandforce benches all over the net which fell well short of stated performance... especially with regard to sequential rates... so it was back to sit on the fence some more for me

Care to provide a few links?
All the reviews I've found seem to be on par with what would be expected, including the anand one.
Unless I've misread some of them, I'll include the ones I found so far...

SF-1500 reviews:
http://www.anandtech.com/storage/sho...spx?i=3751&p=1
http://macperformanceguide.com/Revie...y_Extreme.html
http://www.barefeats.com/hard130.html
http://translate.google.com/translat...ml&sl=fr&tl=en

SF-1200 reviews:
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/319...200/index.html

Threads:
I think this thread can be taken with a grain of salt....
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/25...ercury-extreme
the guy seems to be in way too much of a hurry to rule it out
*SF-1200
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ht=OWC+mercury

[Biker]

<snip>

Online reviews are all well and good but what really counts is real end users real world experience (well to me at least).

A good start are the OCZ forums where some Vertex LE (Sandforce 1500) users are getting bricked drives and / or poor performance in benchmarks.

OCZ predominately test with Atto which seems to give great numbers pretty much all the time but when you throw in other benching tools like AS SSD and Crystalmark etc they portray a very different picture with much lower results than advertised across the board. OCZ also test with IOmeter which I think is a good performance assessment tool but I am presonally not too keen on using it as it tends to take a huge write dump on your array

A good example of the trials and tribulations of a perplexed user is here and there are many more if you search manually (the OCZ forum search function is not the best in my experience)....

After that you could head over to Newegg and check out some user review feedback...


Now I have *no* idea how many Sandforce drives have been sold or what proportion of them have been troublesome but the fact that quite a few are is worrying...



The bottom line is that reports like those referred to above (for me) put a big question mark over the reliability and performance of Sandforce drives...

I do not know anyone on this forum who has got a Sandforce drive (or array) yet apart from Praz and Tony which is probably for these reasons coupled with not very attractive pricing....

Since the OWC is basically the same drive with a different sticker and possibly different firmware then (for me at least) they have to get tarred with the same brush.

I was also consdering buiding an array of Crucial RealSSD C300's but I have also read several reports (most recently over @ Anandtech) where write performance simply drops through the floor so it is not just Sandforce drives that are having issues.



This is unfortunately the fundamental problem with surfing the bleeding edge of technology: there are very often early adopter issues!



Regarding the Sandforce benchmark performance disrepancies and reliability issues these are the questions:


Is it the OS?

Is it the Benchmarks?

Is it the SSD controller?

Is it the SSD design?

Is it the SSD firmware?

Is it the motherboard?

Is it the motherboard bios version and / or bios settings?

Is it Intel playing silly buggers with drivers to make their own SSD's look better?

Is it a combination of some or all of these or something else entirely?


Answer: The jury is still out

[SteveRo]

Mr. mbreslin seems to be doing fine with his c300s.
I wish one of us would get a owc 50.

[jalyst]

...

Some solid points there...

I've reflected some more and realised that this is for a machine that's not meant to be a "screamer".
So it seems counter-intuitive to be justifying a purchase of the current MLC performance leader.

In most scenarios the improvement won't be noticeable between it & the X25-M or 2x X25-V anyway.
The focus should be on value for money, which most certainly lies with the latter.

So I think I'll drop SF-1500/1200 drives and research availability of TRIM pass-through a bit more.
If nothing is on the horizon any time soon, then I'll just get the X25-M.

I have plans for more of a "beast" later in the year, that's when I'll worry about getting the best SSD.

[jalyst]

Mr. mbreslin seems to be doing fine with his c300s.
I wish one of us would get a owc 50.

Is there any indication that "GC-like" support will be out for postvillle based drives soon or in the future? (not referring to TRIM pass-through)
So 2x X25-V and 1x X25-M are the same price, but the former performs slightly better?

Thanks/night.

[Biker]

Mr. mbreslin seems to be doing fine with his c300s.
I wish one of us would get a owc 50.

I was going to get 4 50's to play with but then they jacked the price right up

[SteveRo]

Is there any indication that "GC-like" support will be out for postvillle based drives soon or in the future? (not referring to TRIM pass-through)
So 2x X25-V and 1x X25-M are the same price, but the former performs slightly better?

GC for postville - not that I have heard.
Yes, I think I read that even intel engineers commented that 2x x25-v was faster than one x25-m, with write back cache enabled on ich10r R0 - i think that's probably true.

2x x25-v on ich10r (with write back enabled) -

[Biker]

Well judging by your posted results and my unpublished ones, i'm inclined to agree

Also my X25 (M and V) arrays (non OS) are holding up really well with the latest firmware despite being TRIM starved.

[Ao1]

Is there any indication that "GC-like" support will be out for postvillle based drives soon or in the future? (not referring to TRIM pass-through)
So 2x X25-V and 1x X25-M are the same price, but the former performs slightly better?

I would not hold my breath waiting for a raid trim pass through solution. It’s no big deal anyway. Just image the drive, secure erase and then reimage....20 mins top. Outside of benchmarks you most likely won’t even notice a slow down anyway.

Why not get a single X25-V? If you find you need more speed just get another one and run it in raid 0. If that is no good add a third.

By this time next year drives will be a faster, bigger and cheaper. (Capacity should double for the same price or less.)

EDIT: Looking at Steve's AS Benchmark 2 of those V's in raid 0 will be faster than a X25-m.

[SteveRo]

audienceofone - i believe true on all points

[SteveRo]

Well judging by your posted results and my unpublished ones, i'm inclined to agree

Also my X25 (M and V) arrays (non OS) are holding up really well with the latest firmware despite being TRIM starved.

For the price - hard to go wrong with x25-v's, only hassle is breaking the array to run intel tool box - how often?
Probably depends on how often you write to them - i would hope monthly or even quarterly would be often enough for most usage patterns.