clip - Time to bash some snake oil companies

[STEvil]

CD's have gone down dramatically in quality as well, as in their levels are all equalized or jacked up... almost dont even need a subsonic filter anymore

[MattiasNYC]

CD's have gone down dramatically in quality as well, as in their levels are all equalized or jacked up... almost dont even need a subsonic filter anymore

Well, what I meant was that the technology itself was from a certain standpoint the best mainstream consumer tech we got, and then it ironically got worse because of convenience and cost.

And another way of putting it: If Led Zeppelin tried to make an album today they'd suffer commercially if it sounded the way their LP's did when they came out. Not because of the technology, but because music in general, regardless of medium, is compressed and loudness maximized to all hell.

But I'm guessing you meant "music quality in general" and perhaps not CDs specifically....

[SolidGoldstein]

No disrespect here either. I'll just point out that the difference would probably be quite significant. That's not to say that one would automatically identify which is which, but at least that there is a difference, consistently.

That it all ends up in a digital storage medium doesn't automatically "smooth out" the differences.



Well, the above seems to be a contradiction actually. If it's not the gear but the player, then it doesn't matter which gear you use: actual hardware that's amplified and mic'd, or going straight into a DAW for software emulation.



Not sure I agree with this and I think it has to do with economics.

Look at how the music industry has changed. We've gone from super-expensive (for good reasons) recording studios to smaller production rooms and home studios. From audio systems that grew from the old vinyl to CD (which is pretty good quality actually) and "back down again" to mp3's and crappy ear buds. Rather than actually paying for music people download a tremendous amount. Music venues have closed, and the marketable music that gets the big bucks is garbage for the most part - garbage with little longevity but with a high short-term profit.

So in that context - in the context of trying to save money and make money short term at every corner - I think it's even inevitable that we'll see many more venues investing in devices that offer the touring guitar player the ability to simply plug in and pick a virtual amplifier. Might not happen in 2010, but I bet you that in a few years it won't be unreasonable at all. Or, even sooner, the touring players likely bring with them laptops etc themselves for increased control.

Think about it this way:

1) The guitarist is now given more control over the sound leaving the stage. Instead of having to rely on the venues mics, cables and preamps he can now output exactly to the mix buss what he wants to hear. The only parameter left to deal with is the playback system.

2) Less stuff to carry. The difference increases when you consider a band with a couple of guitar players and a bass player. All three carrying gear equal to a carry-on bag as opposed to heavy amps. Save space = save money on tour.

Just my 0.2....

WTF? You don't understand my logic. I thought I was safe from the stupidity on this forum. Clearly you can't imagine someone on the internet understanding and seeing your argument, it must be humanly impossible. Well, maybe for YOU. I try to abridge most of my ideas so as not to go on for days, and therein lies the problem. For example, I was trying to come to an articulation fusing our ideas into a more clear argument. I was not saying that Pro Tools would smooth out the differences between a modeled guitar tone and the real thing. Also, case in point, King's X (a well-known cultish heavy rock band) made some great albums with the real deal amps, and then made an album with a Line 6 amp modeler. They were snubbed for it.

This thread is a joke. None of you "pros" are even in the same league as I'm talking about here. So, your economic based premises are not valid in context. It's your logic that is cheapening the quality of music these days.

[MattiasNYC]

WTF? You don't understand my logic. I thought I was safe from the stupidity on this forum.

Relax. Does making an argument possibly contrary to your opinion automatically warrant "stupidity on this forum"?

Clearly you can't imagine someone on the internet understanding and seeing your argument, it must be humanly impossible. Well, maybe for YOU. I try to abridge most of my ideas so as not to go on for days, and therein lies the problem. For example, I was trying to come to an articulation fusing our ideas into a more clear argument.

Ok, so tell me what I misunderstood then. Do you really have to resort to having an attitude? (that's what it reads like to me anyways)

I was not saying that Pro Tools would smooth out the differences between a modeled guitar tone and the real thing.

Ok... uhm.... when you write "doing sessions in Pro Tools, it's all going digital anyway so it might not sounds too different", it sure sounded like that's what you meant.

Also, case in point, King's X (a well-known cultish heavy rock band) made some great albums with the real deal amps, and then made an album with a Line 6 amp modeler. They were snubbed for it.

And? What can we learn from that? Were they "snubbed" because people thought it sounded "bad", or because it sounded "different", or because people simply were aware that there was a difference (which doesn't mean they could hear the difference)?

This thread is a joke. None of you "pros" are even in the same league as I'm talking about here.

You know, a condescending tone doesn't win you any arguments... not that it's a competition..... but still.... Now, seeing that you bring it up: What "league" are you talking about here? What level of "pro"? What exactly do you know of the "league" and "pro" level I or others represent? And what level do you represent? Do we really want to go down that road?

So, your economic based premises are not valid in context.

Not valid in what context and why? You're not being very clear.

It's your logic that is cheapening the quality of music these days.

Huh? "My" logic? I'm not advocating any of this. I'm merely pointing out what I think is the case and how I think the industry will continue to change. So it's really not my "logic" I'm talking about, it's just how I see the music industry changed.

[STEvil]

Well, what I meant was that the technology itself was from a certain standpoint the best mainstream consumer tech we got, and then it ironically got worse because of convenience and cost.

And another way of putting it: If Led Zeppelin tried to make an album today they'd suffer commercially if it sounded the way their LP's did when they came out. Not because of the technology, but because music in general, regardless of medium, is compressed and loudness maximized to all hell.

But I'm guessing you meant "music quality in general" and perhaps not CDs specifically....

Mostly means CD's.

There is still music out there of decent quality, regardless of if the mastering is a bit poor... and its getting rarer

[MattiasNYC]

Well, I guess what I meant to say was that CD's aren't a "problem" technologically speaking. If new music sounds "worse" then it is because of the recording, mixing and mastering process, not the format itself.

And as for the music itself, I totally agree with you.

[Levish]

with respect to cryo treating things & room temperature meantioned earlier, the process of cryo treating does have a metalurgic effect (It improves the durability of brake rotors and there are possibly other effects), but I doubt that this would have any measurable effect on home theaters.

[STEvil]

with respect to cryo treating things & room temperature meantioned earlier, the process of cryo treating does have a metalurgic effect (It improves the durability of brake rotors and there are possibly other effects), but I doubt that this would have any measurable effect on home theaters.

Are these $50,000 brake rotors?


I remember back when we were dipping CPU's in LN2 to try and see if it would help them (Athlon-XP's and stuff). It didnt... so we just went back to putting a pot of LN2 on top of them while they were actually running

[Donnie27]

Donnie27 - You're OFF THE DEEP END... YOU are the one who is missing the point -clearly- from your posts. I said 2 links in the context of the OP which had no message/idea/response/thesis. I see your other links, and don't care for them. You're a train wreck man. Who says hello in a thread like I'm going to see the Wizard of Oz or something....??? This is not your house/territory/property or any exclusive club of yours in any regard. It's a public forum where different people from all over the world express their thoughts, experiences, etc. Apparently you don't get the basic premises such as this.

There's no evidence that proves what you're saying, it's self-indulgent bull:banana:.

1. So prove to the posters here that Audio Rocks work?
2. Their claims about their cables are valid?
3. That any of the Top 10 reasons are false?
4. Parts Express HDMI cables aren't as good as Monsters.
5. That the Monster Con-Job from that link is Fake.

Can you do any of these things? The very simple premise of the thread is Snake Oil. You did miss the point of the thread and something simple as "Oh, OK" would have been enough. Instead, you break forum decorum and bash me and others LOL! Naw, I'll NOT return the favor. Bash all you like Go ahead, dig a deeper hole and loose even more respect.

I think i'm siding with donnie on this one, though I think he for sure could express himself in a much more controlled.. tone.

Of course you're right! I know I shouldn't retaliate but hey.

Example;

WTF? You don't understand my logic. I thought I was safe from the stupidity on this forum. Clearly you can't imagine someone on the internet understanding and seeing your argument, it must be humanly impossible...............This thread is a joke. None of you "pros" are even in the same league as I'm talking about here. So, your economic based premises are not valid in context. It's your logic that is cheapening the quality of music these days.

There are a lot of mean come backs to such off topic BS! This other poster did NOTHING to warrant this kind reply from this guy! I didn't post back immediately because I know my original reply was Ban Material!

[Donnie27]

relax. Does making an argument possibly contrary to your opinion automatically warrant "stupidity on this forum"?

Ok, so tell me what i misunderstood then. Do you really have to resort to having an attitude? (that's what it reads like to me anyways)

ok... Uhm.... When you write "doing sessions in pro tools, it's all going digital anyway so it might not sounds too different", it sure sounded like that's what you meant.

And? What can we learn from that? Were they "snubbed" because people thought it sounded "bad", or because it sounded "different", or because people simply were aware that there was a difference (which doesn't mean they could hear the difference)?

You know, a condescending tone doesn't win you any arguments... Not that it's a competition..... But still.... Now, seeing that you bring it up: What "league" are you talking about here? What level of "pro"? What exactly do you know of the "league" and "pro" level i or others represent? And what level do you represent? Do we really want to go down that road?

Not valid in what context and why? You're not being very clear.

Huh? "my" logic? I'm not advocating any of this. I'm merely pointing out what i think is the case and how i think the industry will continue to change. So it's really not my "logic" i'm talking about, it's just how i see the music industry changed.

qft!

[Donnie27]

More Audio-Phoolery!

http://www.ilikejam.org/blog/audio/audiophile.html

AUDIOPRISM CD STOP LIGHT PEN
Marigo Labs Signature 3-D Mat
BEDINI - QUADRI-BEAM ULTRA CLARIFIER
Nanotech Systems NESPA #1
Furutech RD-2 Demagnitizer
CD Sound Improver
The GSIC-10 Intelligent Chip
Ultra Tweeter from Golden Sound
The Altmann Tube-o-lator lacquer

And many many more!

[metalop1g]

What a good reading Still, I need to find a good guide of what are the affordable pieces of equipment I could get, that have a well established reputation, to fill my room this summer..

LOL @ 50 000$ speakers, and 20k interconnects

[STEvil]

Technically I could see some of the elevation/dampening stuff actually doing something depending on the system.. if a resonance frequency made a coil somewhere move it could possibly introduce artifacts somewhere along the chain of components..

at least thats my theory.. I wouldnt rely on their tech to do anything about it because none of what I read in any of the links went into any detail of whats actually happening.. haha.

[crackhead2k]

listened to speaker ranging from a couple hundred to 100000, havent seen anything more expensive in person... anything after 30ish k is just output and lightly different sound....imho

[Donnie27]

listened to speaker ranging from a couple hundred to 100000, havent seen anything more expensive in person... anything after 30ish k is just output and lightly different sound....imho

http://cgi.ebay.com/Carver-AV-505-Mu...item414f0e7af0

http://cgi.ebay.com/DENON-POA-3012C1...item3cac839cba

Then there are crap load of excellent AMP that you can connect strait from the sound card or via a Pre AMP if for louder performances. Marantz, Denon, Carver, Sonance, NAD and many more.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Cayin-A-100T-Int...item3cac82f155

Even real Aidiophile equipment is judged by performance, not merely costs. No, I don't think the 6 Grand a bud spent was wasted for his rig with a similar Tube AMP. I'm becomeing a big fan of Stereo Tube Amps and no, they don't need to cost more than $2,500.

The funny thing is that there were very minimal Room Accustics planned, No listening chair, none of his cables cost more than $10.99 and we've NEVER bought into these Gimmicks. I go back into at least the Quadrophonic 70's eara.

[crackhead2k]

I completely agree with you.
I think the best bang for teh buck is 2500, I sometimes buy used for cheap =P
All I know is good tubes don't burn out.

I do think if you do get a preamp it needs a good amp first. But then I'm running floorstanding spkers, needs more power.

[MattiasNYC]

Technically I could see some of the elevation/dampening stuff actually doing something depending on the system.. if a resonance frequency made a coil somewhere move it could possibly introduce artifacts somewhere along the chain of components..

at least thats my theory.. I wouldnt rely on their tech to do anything about it because none of what I read in any of the links went into any detail of whats actually happening.. haha.

I could be mistaken but I think the dampening has to do with trying to make sure that things that aren't supposed to resonate and thereby emit sound (acoustically) won't do it. So speaker stands for example are to be made so that they won't resonate and thereby actually emit sounds themselves. And some of these dampening materials put between speakers and stands supposedly achieve this somewhat.

[Donnie27]

I completely agree with you.
I think the best bang for teh buck is 2500, I sometimes buy used for cheap =P
All I know is good tubes don't burn out.

I do think if you do get a preamp it needs a good amp first. But then I'm running floorstanding spkers, needs more power.

Yepp!

""I could be mistaken but I think the dampening has to do with trying to make sure that things that aren't supposed to resonate and thereby emit sound (acoustically) won't do it. So speaker stands for example are to be made so that they won't resonate and thereby actually emit sounds themselves. And some of these dampening materials put between speakers and stands supposedly achieve this somewhat.

Yes, some stands are like using a "Tin-Can Telephone". Oh hardwoods I know guys using Dynamat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_can_telephone

I had some one come over as my sound system breaks many of the Audiophile rules. They normally leave shocked that it sounds so good, not award winning or anything, just very good. They're floor standers on the floor and the floor is carpeted.

[STEvil]

I could be mistaken but I think the dampening has to do with trying to make sure that things that aren't supposed to resonate and thereby emit sound (acoustically) won't do it. So speaker stands for example are to be made so that they won't resonate and thereby actually emit sounds themselves. And some of these dampening materials put between speakers and stands supposedly achieve this somewhat.

Yes, that is their intention. Their intention is not mine.

[Donnie27]

http://most-expensive.net/speakers

World’s Most Expensive Speakers!

[Donnie27]

More fun reading!

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=5252

[Donnie27]

If you need a laugh, from that same link but deserves its own link!

http://www.nathanmarciniak.com/elemental/

[Donnie27]

Juan said it better with this short comment that 3 pages could!

I came across this outfit after making the mistake of reading last month’s Hi-Fi News, where they excitedly reported the release of PWB’s (PWB is Peter W. Belt, sounds almost like a made up name spin on "Peter Built") Special One Drop Liquid (you rub it on all transparent materials in the room to stop non-forward facing light from getting through. Obviously). Even for a magazine which specializes in promoting the emperor’s new clothes, this was stupid beyond belief. Please keep reporting on Audiophile nonsense, it’s a massive industry, ripping off gullible rich people and slowing real audio progress.

Absolutely Quoted for Factual Content! Real R&D not only slows, folks who did want and didn't get improvements tend to not trust the REAL Hi-Fi industry and real good products get overlooked! On or with some of this stuff some kind of Mail or Wire Fraud needs to be introduced.

Some of this same $hit is going on the PC markets Intel and AMD (when they could) 1,000 up to $1,500 processors that might be 10% faster than models costing 400% lessl Asus started it with single socket $350 motherboards. Once idiots (IMHO) paid for them, the race to see who could trick "Enthusiasts with more money than brains" was on! I still feel like even my Prelude sound card sold for about $50 too much. I'd not believe the Parts and Labor was more than $30