Business is business, nobody is questionning this.Originally Posted by cstkl1
The question is about the way to make business.
Business is business, nobody is questionning this.
The question is about the way to make business.
please list one listed first board company that we wont question
"the way to make business"
i noticed it when playing the game, and immediatly subtracted 1 credit off of nvidias karma accountand yes, i actually base my hw purchase decisions on their karma scores... not exclusively, but it does matter...
most people rant about companies being unethical all day and then support them as soon as they have an offer that saves them 10$...
Sure, and the Joker thought the people on the two ferries would blow each other up...and they didn't. But wait, that is just a movie....or is it.i noticed it when playing the game, and immediatly subtracted 1 credit off of nvidias karma account
most people rant about companies being unethical all day and then support them as soon as they have an offer that saves them 10$...
*Darth Vader voice* I find your lack of faith...disturbing.
Last edited by Stukov; 10-02-2009 at 12:10 AM.
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this works like this for me tooi noticed it when playing the game, and immediatly subtracted 1 credit off of nvidias karma account
When i'm being paid i always do my job through.
The problem isn't that NV is helping the devs implement a feature in the game. It's that they had them disable it for non NV hardware. Nobody in this thread is complaining that they can't use GPU PhysX on their ATI card, even though that is obviously a feature NV also helped the devs include in this game. But AA does work on both Nvidia AND ATI cards. Having code to detect cards and disable the feature while playing on competitor's cards is what the issue is about.
I agree that AMD should change the way they interact with developers. But it's sad if this developer needed handholding from NV just to get AA implemented and then couldn't take the 5 minutes it would take to run the build on an ATI card to make sure AA worked there too.
Testing and debugging takes more than 5 minutes for any feature. Something could run from the jump, and later crash if you stand at a specific angle of a certain room if a body is in a certain spot. Thus, the reason why the developer said they haven't had time to validate it for ATi based cards, because NVidia did all of the validation work for their end for the developer.
Remember, this is an engine that has been known to have problems with AA.
no, i read it, and thats what my post was directed towards...
yes, their support probably isnt very good, but refusing their help once they DO come through cause they previously let you down is childish imo...
and like i said, its punishing quite some of your customers that havent done anything wrong...
No, the engine has not any problems with AA. It simply uses a technique (deferred shading) that is not compatible with standard MSAA and that requires a custom AA implementation if you want some AA.
About the testing thing, I simply refuse to believe that they have tested all the game, with all the features, in all cases, in an exhaustive way, for ATi hw but they have leave out of time to test just exactly with the AA they have just programmed, and they have decided to program a check to not let ATi users to run it just in case and this way protect them...
Even if that was the case, seeing as in a first view the filter works correctly, there's no single developer that would have took it out for ATi hw. They would leave it as it were, and if it was buggy, bad luck and patch when it is known. Like if it were the first time that a game goes on sale with a bug.
Everybody knows perfectly good why the AA doesn't work on ATi.
Just testing the basic functionality of the feature could be done very quick. Full testing to make sure it works as expected and doesn't crash could be done by a beta tester. Surely they have at least 1 beta tester with an ati card.
If they properly coded the feature using standard instructions and it still crashed or didn't work on ATI cards then the responsibility would be on ATI to fix their drivers or hardware. But instead they decided to limit a feature that, in fact, does work on ATI hardware just because they were to lazy find out that it does.
Ohhh please, how it was working after some modding in the demo ( disable the detection of ATI card), and then when game was released this mod was no more working.. If the game was crashing cause the fault of ATI, they will have the possibility to say : ATI need update their drivers.
You speak like game companies thoses days cares about the " gamer experience ", but we all know theres only one way they think: money, money, money,... how games like GTA4 can hit the market if it was different?
At first page of this thread: the reasons why AA was not working was: cause ATI can't do this type of AA, now, it's cause devs was not sure AA with ATI will not make crash the games on certain part of the game .., then what it will be?.. AA look ugly with AA cards and they don't want show a ugly game?..
Last edited by Lane-k; 10-02-2009 at 01:46 AM.
Oh, so because NVidia sends us hardware to test software on, we're automatically fanboys? They don't give us anything for our personal systems, only for the office, and it generally comes with a large NDA. Yeah, that's totally buying me off, isn't it. In fact, it totally bought me off into buying a 4850.. Yeah, NVidia did an awesome job buying me off with that one, didn't it.
The way you speak about it was childish!
-"Mom, Nvidia give me nice toys to play with! Even some candies, mmmm!"
-"Great my boy, and AMD?"
-"No, He game me nothing AMD sucks!"
-"But did you ask him someting?"
-"..."
I say AMD should work with whoever asks for their assistance. If a company is developing something that the their consumers will enjoy, then isn't it in their best interests to help said company so those consumers will have the best experience possible with their cards?
You go on with AMD helping no one but you failed to prove they don't... Maybe you're still with your HDTV thing? Sure kids use to be spiteful...(
Think about this for a second, the last time ATi helped sponsor a game anyone actually cared about was HL2 and maybe guildwars which did well for a little while(but GW could be run on any hardware, usually maxed out even still at any resolution), and then just fell off the planet. Not saying ATi should only work with big companies, but working with these side-car gangs only and expecting it to make a difference in everyone's eyes is being naive.
ATI is on Dirt 2 is it big enough for you? Oh no, i forget you doesn't like this game, sorry... The part about Guild Wars working well is obscure...
Let's put it this way, the original CoJ was the last title ATi worked with AFAIK, which was around the time the HD2900 came out. Now, since there's no sales data on the PC version, we'll look at the x360 version(which the console versions generally sell 3x as many as their pc counter-parts)... 250,000. That's right, only 250k copies sold.
First i doubt CoJ was the last game AMD work on, second i don't understand what's your point?
So, them putting in all that time and effort really made a big difference to AMD's costumers didn't it? They sure all did get to enjoy what AMD helped them accomplish. See the problem here? They should work with both small AND big developers, and multiple titles at the same time. The problem is, unlike NVidia, they lack the staff to do so.
http://www.nzone.com/content/GameBrowser/index.asp
Incredible Nvidia work with small editor too : Capcom, Eidos, Vivendi, etc...
Do you know why NVidia have multiple driver sets pop up every month? They have multiple driver teams all working at the same time, and it's no problem for NVidia to have each of those teams working with the various developers to make sure NV have a driver ready for the customer within 24 hours of the games release... ATi couldn't do that even if they tried to, that's the problem.
[Or ATI drivers policy is just not the same. Monthly driver since several. Some like, some doesn't like (you seem to hate red décisions).
Basically, it narrows down to this. NVidia puts out a lot of work with it's developers, putting the costumers money to good use, in a way to gives back TO that costumer. AMD can't physically do it as they lack the man power or the money to do so, and as such everyone is all up in arms saying NVidia is bullying ATi around, because they're using the customers money to help bring more features to their customer? Are you serious? Do you NOT see how blatantly ridiculous this sounds?
That's your opinions but you speak a lot and give almost nothing to backup all this.
Then, when NVidia does make something happen in a title that it wouldn't have happened in, and doesn't handle the testing for AMD, all of the sudden they're doing something bad for the consumer and should be burned at the stake? Lets see here...Compare some of the consumers having access to a feature to none of the consumers having that access.
I'm just going to say it, since I'm frankly tired of people complaining when ATi doesn't give developers support and NVidia does, so things end up bad for ATi and they blame NVidia. You knew ATi wasn't going to get the features added and NVidia were, why did you buy the ATi card.
p.s. Yes I know that sounded biased, but frankly it's the most realistic way to look at it. If you're that sick of ATi not having access to features, then why not buy the cards that do and quit complaining.Sounds like a common sense situation to me.
You're innocent since you prove guilty. That's the way that's functionning in almost the whole planet because that's the right way.
Basically you want me to prove you that AMD is innocent, thinking that if AMD isn't innocent, it's guilty.
Implicitly, you confess that Nvidia is guilty but you think that is they both guilty, there is no problem.
Uhm, that is a very very strange way to put it...
Noone expects nvidia to do any testing for amd and you know that very well. What people expect is that when nvidia helps to make a basic feature available, the developer is not forced by nvidia to disable this feature on other hardware it runs on as well.
I don't understand. You seem very impressed with nvidia somehow, yet claim this is not the result of them sending you hardware. Why are you so impressed with them? So they have the luxoury to be able to throw more money at dev relations than ati, this does not give them the right to ask gamedevelopers to disable certain things on ati hardware.
And the "this is business" argument doesn't really make much sense either. It's not business for ati... Were basic features disabled in hl2 cause ati helped with that game? No.
Ultimately i think some folks in here have a hard time looking at this from a consumer point of view. Competition is good, keeps prices low, makes companies perform, but sabotaging the competing products is not healthy, innovative competition, it's the opposite of that and makes us move backward instead of forward.
First, CoJ was, up until the past few months, the last title ATi had in their GitG program as far as I can tell. If you can find one besides the upcoming DX11 titles, feel free to point those out.
Abel, I've said a few times we HAVE asked ATi/AMD for support(not even just hardware, but run into rendering snags with their hardware), that's how I knew that you end up stuck calling customer service, which Saaya confirmed... We asked, they ignore, we get stuck on a loop. It's so bad sometimes that if we have a problem we make the new guy do it, when it should usually be someone who really knows the issue. NVidia support any developer who calls them, ATi you're lucky if you finally get patched through to someone who knows what they're talking about... That's the cold hard truth. You say I have no proof, what am I suppose to do, start illegally recording my conversations to prove to people on a web forum that amd CAN do wrong? You have a very well respected member of this forum(Saaya) who DID work the job on here for AMD telling you this IS what happens, what more do you need?
Where I come from, we call that a witness. Now it's my word WITH a witness from the company against ATi's claims... You know what judges call that? Guilty. If you really want to be that naive, and think that because AMD said they work with developers it's true, be my guest, I'm tired of arguing with those who are too dense to understand that this IS the case, even when multiple sources, including ex-AMD staff, development houses, etc all tell you otherwise...
As for who nvidia works with, if you look they work with companies big and small. Thanks for posting the link and reminding everyone of that. You see, there's more titles that NVidia's TWIMTBP touched in the past year than ATi's GitG has in it's entire existance. I don't need to go out of my way to prove that, a 2 second glance at NVidia's website does that for you. How's that program funded? NVidia's profits. Where does NVidia's profits come from? The customer. As such, it's them using the customers money to help make sure games play fine with the hardware the customer invested in. There's no opinion to that, it's right in front of you
In any way, shape, or form you look at it you're arguing a losing battle. It's getting tiresome and frankly boring, because you're just going to make the same claims even though the proof is right in front of your eyes. The fact that you ignore it only shows your true motivation in said situation.
I'm impressed by hardware period. I just find it funny that everyone acts like NVidia is the devil, and that AMD is the saint, when they've never dealt with either company on a business or personal level. I'm impressed by how well nvidia DOES work with developers to help out, and if you need hardware to test your software with they will have it to you rather quickly and painlessly. Most of the time they even pay for the shipping themselves. We don't get to take those cards home, so it's not like we're being bribed on a personal level.
That may sound like a cop-out, or however you want to look at it, but it IS the case. My old 8800GTX I bought myself, and my current card is an ATi because I sold my 8800GTX(for a killing, might I add) and for the money I was going to spend the 4850 1gb was the best for my buck.
The only thing I have an issue with is the misinformation thrown all over this forum, and ironically enough it's usually pro-ati.
Last edited by DilTech; 10-02-2009 at 02:46 AM.
'Get in Game' is over because that was ATI partnership program. So if you look for 'Get in game' for DX11 titles you can search a long time. But if your search for AMD support for next DX11 you will find with ease. Sure that not the mighty TWIMTBP but it exist. Sayaa even post a link about AMD developers policy : http://tv.hexus.net/show/2008/09/Int...Richard_Huddy/
Saaya said :
Does Sayaa says AMD give NO SUPPORT at all (you imply that Diltech) : NO.mhhhh not really... i worked for amd customer support and i did notice that dev relations arent exactly perfect... when game devs call the regular tech support cause they cant get a reply from any of their propper contacts for a while thats quite telling...
Does Sayaa says AMD support far from perfect : YES.
Maybe Sayaa can give more informations and effectly tell that the situation he explains happened all the time?
About the link i failed to see small developer sorry. An if you watch closely in 2009 there is 15 games sponsored by Nvidia.
For AMD, there are here and i count 7 games for 2009.
http://game.amd.com/us-en/play_games.aspx
For you're praising about Nvidia and the noble way they use money customers give them. I find it because you tell yourself before that AMD lack staff and money to do their best.
So basically you want AMD to do exactly the same than Nvidia (thing they don't want just watch the interview), but you know they can't with the same magnitude than Nvidia because they lack money and employees.
What you want seem impossible so just burn AMD?
It's not so much impossible, just that they need to work harder to achieve it. Just a little support is a good start. I don't expect them to do what they can't financially afford, they just need to be willing to work with those who ask for a bit of help rather than those they choose because they think their game will have the most marketing impact.
I don't say they don't give support ever, by the way, I said it's very VERY difficult to get in touch with them to get said support.
You know what you missing on ATI fanboys? On great gaming.
I'm a gamer first and hardware enthusiast second. And from GF2 days i was never disappointed with Nvidia. In most of the titles that i playd they made sure i get the best experience on their hardware. Almost any game i pick up now has TWIMTBP logo. What does that say? That Nvidia is working for a gamer with a game company.
I give ATI that they can make great cards. 9800pro for a while was a great card for its time. The recent line looks great. They can really make raw performance cards. But what is lacking is ATI involvement in game industry. Face it they are more of a hardware company.
And for people that think that it's simple to make better use of the hardware why does Nvidia release way more drivers then ATI? I almost always could get customized drivers for the current games. Hell almost every two weeks there is a driver. Support means allot to me.
Seriously any sane person would acknowledge that stuff like this is what really exposes ati and makes them look bad in gamer opinion. Most people are not fanatical hardware junkis and will simply buy stuff that works better. Why shouldn't i get maximum benefit for my hardware? i wish ati would stop talking and start doing.
One more point: There is allot of amatures here who do not understand software development and release control. I was involved in projects that would release to 300K users all over the world. If the feature can not be validated 100% working there could never be a release of it. The consequences are to grave for a large release. All the developer needs is 1000's of users having issues. We as of now do not know if this AA is 100% flawless with ATI cards do we? It is not a natural feature of the engine. It might work 95% on ati cards but until its tested and validated it will not go for a production release to possibly millions of users around the globe. What do you propose that Eidos gets all versions of ati cards and make their developers play the game to make sure you wont get lockups or weird artifact? Where is the involment from ATI side i ask you? When i release a software product i want it to be as less bug free as possible. And for quality reason I'm with the developer for not releasing 100% working feature.
Last edited by railer; 10-02-2009 at 05:27 AM.
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LOE, so you're mad that NVidia doesn't support you for having an ATi card?
Does ford give you car support if you buy a chevy?
Can you call sony to fix your xbox 360?
Will Coke give you a refund if you buy a pepsi that turns out to be flat?
Think about this for a minute...
You're kidding right? What the fook are you talking about? Each and every game that launch needs to be patched (most often numerous times) afterward. There's no such thing as 100% validated in software busyness, not even close.
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Are you pretending to imply that people who is criticizing that behaviour in this thread is a fanboy or something?
That's a pretty good way to start and lose all credit for the rest of the post. I think the word fanboy is starting to be overabused in forums as an intend to weaken other people opinions. Particularly coming from fanboys themselves, I should add. Ironic, isn't it? Not everybody (indeed, I should say that lots of people aren't) are interested to follow a vendor like if it were a sports team, I should add.
I shouldn't bother to give an answer to a post who start with a few disqualifications and false assumptions as a way to reinforce a basically unsure affirmation, but:
*OK, you're right, companies never launch a product without beeing 100% sure about everything working perfectly on all hardware. Must be the reason why I have never seen a bug in a game.
*Even more sure is that they have tested everything they have coded in their game for every piece of hardware, but they run out of time and they couln't test that specific feature on ATi hw. I don't know how to describe how hilarious that sounds to me...
*Mmmmh, Eidos must be the most inept game vendor in the world following your logic, since it's the first time that I know of that a working feature is disabled on specific brands of hw because they have not had time to test it.
EDIT: And let's try to keep on topic, please. We are not debating (suposedly) about which company has greatest developer support, but about the fact of Eidos disabling a feature of their game to one of the currently two main brands of domestic graphic hardware on the market.
Last edited by Farinorco; 10-02-2009 at 06:07 AM.
So you saying that i should knowingly release a feature that I'm not sure about it?You're kidding right? What the fook are you talking about? Each and every game that launch needs to be patched (most often numerous times) afterward. There's no such thing as 100% validated in software busyness, not even close.
FAIL
You are missing the point. I'm a gamer. I don't care about all these things you mention. All i care is that my games are supported. I will buy which ever gpu does that best.That's a pretty good way to start and lose all credit for the rest of the post. I think the word fanboy is starting to be overabused in forums as an intend to weaken other people opinions. Particularly coming from fanboys themselves, I should add. Ironic, isn't it? Not everybody (indeed, I should say that lots of people aren't) are interested to follow a vendor like if it were a sports team, I should add.
Btwy. Those physics effects with AA do look kind of nice in BAA. I enjoy it so much. I'm glad i made a wise choice for this exact reason.
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Nvidia release beta drivers almost every days without support.
Why not put these Nvidia PhysX+ATI GPU in beta put a nice disclaimer et 'voilà'!
Same for Rocksteady and the AA feature in BAA!
And as a gamer you should be worried about companies doing things to make money at the expense of gamers. But I think you're missing your own point... if you don't care about all those things that I mention... why have you wrote a 5 paragraphs post about them? I'm sorry, but I don't mind about what you care or not. You have said some things, and I have answered them. Oh, and you should care about making assumptions about people when talking/writing with them.You are missing the point. I'm a gamer. I don't care about all these things you mention. All i care is that my games are supported. I will buy which ever gpu does that best.
Btwy. Those physics effects with AA do look kind of nice in BAA. I enjoy it so much. I'm glad i made a wise choice for this exact reason.
Oh, and I'm glad you're enjoying your purchase decisions. But I couldn't care less
So let me get this straight, This game did not have AA, Nv came along and helped them make AA work on there hardware but did not spend any time/money validating it for there competition. So what's the problem again?
Apparently that's bullying to these guys.
"well, if they're going to spend time/money/resources to make it work for them then they should make it work for AMD too !!!1!1!!!one!1!!"
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