ATi has problems with some DX10 titles at 1080p?

[zanzabar]

Jared, that only works with some TVs... The issue is, for a lot of people, that sticks them with 1080p24, which means if the refresh rate in game can't be changed(gears of war, for example) they're stuck with a refresh rate of 24. Most nice 1080p TV's support 1080p24 because 1080p60 can have slight jitters with HD movies, because it leads to a split in frames when sync'ing to the TV(every other frame is displayed twice IIRC).

Basically, the game selects the first 1080 mode it sees, and on the list it's 1080i.

so your blaming ati for having the game programed wrong, if u set the launch option to "-refresh xx" were u set it to the native refresh (im guessing its 59)

if u have a refresh of over 60 then u have to add that to alot of games, but tvs work the same.


and for source they coded the game wrong, u can look at the map file for nuke they set the lighting wrong and never fixed it but u dont see it on NV since the driver forces dx8

[DilTech]

So can we make news posts about all bugs we find with nvidia and ati drivers?

There's a difference between a driver bug and a major issue that hasn't been touched on by news sites but effects so many and SHOULD be noticed by the people.

This isn't pointed out in any driver release notes, in ATi/AMD's knowledge base, on ANY review site, or on any news site. This NEEDS to be seen, so pressure will be on AMD to fix it. It's not as minuscule as AA not working properly in a game, or a few textures rendering incorrectly, this is a case of people with 1080p monitors and tv's having to deal with a 1080i picture because AMD/ATi didn't bother to test it... Meanwhile they even include a HDMI adapter(and even made a huge deal of that fact) with their cards to make it easier TO use your HDTV.

Without it being brought to major attention, more people will buy these cards and try to do exactly what I do, only to find out they're stuck with an inferior picture. This was my first ATi card since the 9800pro, and if I had known about this I would never have gotten it, and many others feel the same way if you check AMD's forums, or many other forums as well.

I mean, if this was a NVidia problem, you and several others would be yelling to burn them at the stake, but since it's ATi you instead say it's not news. It's been a problem for over a YEAR, it's news by now.

so your blaming ati for having the game programed wrong, if u set the launch option to "-refresh xx" were u set it to the native refresh (im guessing its 59)

if u have a refresh of over 60 then u have to add that to alot of games, but tvs work the same.


and for source they coded the game wrong, u can look at the map file for nuke they set the lighting wrong and never fixed it but u dont see it on NV since the driver forces dx8

I'm not blaming ATi for a game being improperly coded, the problem is how their driver interacts with DX10 in the first place. That's why when you run these games in DX9 it works fine, but in DX10 the issue occurs.

Also, many games do not allow you to change the refresh rate... Just for the record.

This is a major issue, and it needs to be fixed. No need to try and down play it just because it affects ATi instead of NVidia.

[AbelJemka]

In my book a major issue is touched by news sites.
In your it seems a major issue is when it's touched you....
Please post a news when you solve the problem, you will probably save the life of all ATI users

[gumballguy]

To me, this IS news. I'm all for it being posted. It's a major stuffup, not some stupid little CS bug on a particular map.

It would make me think twice about ATI as having spent $3k on a tv I'm bloody well going to use it at its max rez (1080p) when I build my new pc soon! If ATI can't do that, their loss, nvidia's win.

Thanks for creating this thread. Sorry I can't provide much help.

[DilTech]

To me, this IS news. I'm all for it being posted. It's a major stuffup, not some stupid little CS bug on a particular map.

It would make me think twice about ATI as having spent $3k on a tv I'm bloody well going to use it at its max rez (1080p) when I build my new pc soon! If ATI can't do that, their loss, nvidia's win.

Thanks for creating this thread. Sorry I can't provide much help.

I'm glad someone else is interested... I'm going to send out this info to as many major sites tomorrow as I can, to hopefully get this more attention so ATi/AMD take it a LOT more seriously.

To anyone on here who run hardware sites(HW-Canucks for example), could you do me a favor a post this up? It's easily verifiable, and the more exposure the faster we'll have our answer.

[zanzabar]

To me, this IS news. I'm all for it being posted. It's a major stuffup, not some stupid little CS bug on a particular map.

It would make me think twice about ATI as having spent $3k on a tv I'm bloody well going to use it at its max rez (1080p) when I build my new pc soon! If ATI can't do that, their loss, nvidia's win.

Thanks for creating this thread. Sorry I can't provide much help.

maybe u should compain to the TV maker if this happens they should have made the tv accept a full 60hrz signal. and adding a launch option isnt hard.

i havnt seen this at all and ive built and installed HD tvs and HTPCs, i have had to set 59hrz as a launch option affter getting a black screen on ati and NV cards but ive never seen a tv change modes to 1080i. but if it prevents a launch to a black screen that seams like a pro


also why are u playing games at 1080 except for the new samsung series 6 and others like it there is a huge input lagg and no visible difference from 720p

[tdream]

Where was this review, this was another big reason I was considering getting a 5 series ATI card, because it would save me a two hundred something audio card?

It's from the anandtech review, pretty worrying that it's been going on for so long and hasn't been fixed. I was hoping to do 1080p out to my tv too.

[Clairvoyant129]

Only people who think this isn't a relevant issue are users who prefer AMD/ATI, no surprises there.

[jstutman]

Well its not "assed" up completly, all ATI video cards with hdmi built in, can render the games at 1080p without downsampling to 1080i. However, how many people with a computer monitor can notice the difference between 1080p and i?

[villa1n]

Now is this an HDMI issue only, as my monitor (Dell 24in 1080p) and my tv 47 in version dont seem to suffer from this. But I am using DVI-d connections and not hdmi. Is that the problem? Only difference i notice is that my TV has more input lag/latency than my 24in, lol which i m sure is to be expected, I dont use it for gaming though, just switch outputs for movies in the media room, but crysis, bioshock demo, assasin creed no problem .
Could it be brand specific as well, Nobody has posted their model of hdtv, or year... and if everyone is using the hdmi outputs?
Oh my gfx are xfired Sapphire + MSI 4870 1gb's

[DilTech]

It's HDMI afaik, My TV is a Panasonic 42" PZ77u. No input lag what-so-ever, but definitely suffers the issue of switching to 1080i.

[villa1n]

It's HDMI afaik, My TV is a Panasonic 42" PZ77u. No input lag what-so-ever, but definitely suffers the issue of switching to 1080i.

Ahh ok, haha and i think my input lag might be more psychological than real since i know my dell has 2ms and my tv is 5-7ms lol

[gumballguy]

also why are u playing games at 1080 except for the new samsung series 6 and others like it there is a huge input lagg and no visible difference from 720p

I am using a samsung series 6...

[Pontos]

Where was this review, this was another big reason I was considering getting a 5 series ATI card, because it would save me a two hundred something audio card?

You don't need to get one you have a HD3xxx or newer card, because all these will send the PCM decoded audio through the HDMI port.
Said decoding is made by the CPU/player, for which you may need software decoders if you don't already have them (Proprietary or Open Source).

Starting with the HD5xxx series you can send the original compressed (And encrypted if it's a Blu-ray) stream instead of decoding it on your PC, so it will be your receiver the one to do the job (No need for crappy software decoder from Powerdvd or the like ).

[AbelJemka]

Only people who think this isn't a relevant issue are users who prefer AMD/ATI, no surprises there.

And some folks with Nvidia cards said they have the same problems but i don't see a news about it

With the number of ATI users in this forums and the number of reply in this thread, the term 'major issue' seems clearly exagerrated!

[blindbox]

Considering most people don't even know about it, and people DO want to know these things when they buy hardware, that very much makes it news. Especially with 24" 1080p lcd monitors being so cheap now... Yes, I've heard it occurs on some of those too.

Remember, the more attention a bug gets, the more likely it is to be fixed.

1080p works fine on my monitor here, until I decided to add HDTV support. Take a guess, it's not an HDTV.

Thank you for testing. I don't know why, but after reading your reply, I tried to add modes under "HDTV Support" that I had already listed:

Add 1080i30 format to the Display Manager(NTSC)

Add 1080p60 format to the Display Manager(NTSC)

Add 1080p24 format to the Display Manager(HD)

Which resulted in 24hz, 29i, 30i, 59hz, 60hz listed under my refresh rates. Now everything under DX10 is working! Well DMC4 DX10 only works if I select 59hz under 1920x1080 resolution, but all other games properly detect 1080p now. I would have never guessed to try this if it wasn't for your reply. Thanks again.

Is this really a bug?

I got no HDTV to try this but try doing only this "Add 1080p60 format to the Display Manager(NTSC)"

Anyway, I got the feeling this is a problem with going beyond the supported limits. Last time when I messed with the HDTV options, it was 1080p60 format that resulted me in getting an out of range error(black screen, etc, whatever). ATI probably didn't get that option right.

Does this work?

I just got a Sapphire 4870 1gb and it's my first ATI card. Anyways, I'm just getting familiar with it and I've been checking out these forums. At first, I tested this 60Hz issue and was like, "oh @#$@#".

I found setting your refresh rate to 59Hz fixes the issue. I tested this with Far Cry 2's benchmark tool using the DirectX 10 option. As soon as I pick 1920x1080-60Hz, it actually underscans the screen (which is annoying) and the TV shows 1080i. When I pick 1920x1080-59Hz, it shows full screen and the TV shows 1080p. You could probably go into Display Settings (in Control Panel) and default to 59Hz and never notice a difference. Unfortunately, Catalyst Control doesn't have the 59Hz option.

Nvidia actually defaulted to 59.something Hz (not the full 60Hz). I think that's why everyone is noticing this as a problem when switching.

...and PIN doesn't have a clue what he's talking about so it's probably best to ignore him. A monitor is the same as a TV only is missing the tuner and post processor board. If you go on the major manufacturer's websites, they'll offer large computer "monitors" under their corporate side of things. Same exact video panels except they're missing the tuners and include some extra outputs.

Anyways, hope this help some of you guys with the issue.

OTOH, it seems brutal to have this on the news page but I support this move. I've never had any problems with Catalyst drivers but others have. I hope this gets AMD's attention.

[STaRGaZeR]

So now we can post driver issues in the news section to get AMD's attention?

[AbelJemka]

So now we can post driver issues in the news section to get AMD's attention?

'Yes we can'

[blindbox]

So now we can post driver issues in the news section to get AMD's attention?

I won't (call me a hypocrite)

[AMDDeathstar]

It's HDMI afaik, My TV is a Panasonic 42" PZ77u. No input lag what-so-ever, but definitely suffers the issue of switching to 1080i.

Have you done the firmware update
http://www.panasonic.com/announce/updatemytv/info.html

[DilTech]

maybe u should compain to the TV maker if this happens they should have made the tv accept a full 60hrz signal. and adding a launch option isnt hard.

i havnt seen this at all and ive built and installed HD tvs and HTPCs, i have had to set 59hrz as a launch option affter getting a black screen on ati and NV cards but ive never seen a tv change modes to 1080i. but if it prevents a launch to a black screen that seams like a pro


also why are u playing games at 1080 except for the new samsung series 6 and others like it there is a huge input lagg and no visible difference from 720p

You clearly don't know anything on this topic. You see, it's not the HDTV with the problem, as we've tested on multiple tv's and multiple set ups with multiple video cards. The only common issue has been two things. ATi, and 1080p.

As for playing at 1080p, you reallllly just proved you don't know this discussion. When you play on a TV, in it's non-native resolution, the TV will have to scale said image. It's this post processing that causes input lag, and the closer you play to your native resolution the less lag you will have. Even if you scale it with your video card, there will be a slight lag, it's just a matter of how much.

Also, my TV is tested to be lagless...

Only people who think this isn't a relevant issue are users who prefer AMD/ATI, no surprises there.

You noticed that too?

So now we can post driver issues in the news section to get AMD's attention?

When it's a bug that beens running for over a year, easily reproducible, affects anyone who games on the HTPC at 1080p and most didn't even know that the video card was the cause because there's no documentation that it happens because AMD refuses to acknowledge it? Yes, you can then post it as news.

There ARE people who game on their HTPC's or their TV, and them NOT knowing this screws THEM over, especially since AMD clearly has no intentions of paying it any mind currently.

p.s. I seem to recall every time NVidia had a driver bug that affected a major game(like crysis) when the GTX-280 first launched people would post it in the news section here. Rather than call it a driver bug, you guys all called it a "cheat", swore up and down it was news, and then went silent when it was fixed like 2 days later. Did it with the 8800GTX as well... Second it's an AMD problem, people downplay it.

Have you done the firmware update
http://www.panasonic.com/announce/updatemytv/info.html

Last firmware update for my TV was 1/08... Yes, it's up to date.

For the last time...It's not my TV that's the culprit, it's ATi. I've now tested on THREE HDTV's(with three different hdmi cables), all 1080p, same out-come. Also now tested four separate video cards(two different 4850's, one 3850, and one 4770), same problem. Forcing a refresh rate in the driver doesn't work, and in vista and up you can no longer force a refresh rate via dxdiag.

And some folks with Nvidia cards said they
have the same problems but i don't see a news about it

With the number of ATI users in this forums and the number of reply in this thread, the term 'major issue' seems clearly exagerrated!

NVidia has a way to fix the problem for anyone who runs into it, as they can force a refresh rate over DX10. ATi can't... Also, Abel, considering people were having the problem all over the net and thought it was just an underscanning problem and didn't even know the TV was switching to 1080i, I'd be willing to wager there's people here with the problem right now and don't even realize it. I know on other forums I've talked about this on, people checked and found out they had the issue without even knowing, just thought the underscan was fubared.

Some people's eyes can't tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p, seeing as how lcds and plasmas put the interleaved image together for you before displaying it(albeit with slight artifacts in movement).

The thing is, when a card is advertised to do 1080p via hdmi, and comes WITH the connector to hook it up to your TV to do it, and it doesn't... Not only is that a problem, but it's also false advertising, and AMD has just ignored the issue for this long now?

Yes, that's news!

[STaRGaZeR]

When it's a bug that beens running for over a year, easily reproducible, affects anyone who games on the HTPC at 1080p and most didn't even know that the video card was the cause because there's no documentation that it happens because AMD refuses to acknowledge it? Yes, you can then post it as news.

Pretty bad response coming from a moderator, because there are hundreds of bugs that meet your requirements and you know it. Bugs with more than one or two years, easily reproducible, affect anyone who games (no specifications). Wait, you think that people having video issues can't think it comes from the video card? *edited sherlock with censor bypass* After your post I could flood the news section with useless threads just like this one and you would close one after another saying "this is not news". Admit you were so pissed off because of this bug that you posted this rant in the news section just for the sake of it and I think everyone here will be happy.

[DilTech]

I posted it because it's useful information that should be known by the community but hasn't been touched on. This isn't some tiny bug, especially with 24" 1080p monitors coming down so low in price(and some ARE affected there too). Would I have known about it if it hadn't affected me? No. I spent a very good chunk of my monday trying to figure out what was causing this problem, had others testing as well, and finally we figured out the culprit when I had my TV tell me what mode it was running in. Then even more testing to verify what could possibly be triggering it...

So technically speaking, you're right in the assumption that if it didn't happen to me I wouldn't have posted this, because I wouldn't have known because there's no documentation on ANY news site about it. No reviewer has ever mentioned this issue, no website has even paid it any mind, but to those of us who use our tv's for monitors(and why wouldn't we, HDTV's have dropped drastically in price and at 1080p they work fine for doing so) this is a big deal. If it wasn't for this very post, people on this site would have no idea, and someone in this thread even said they blamed their TV and not their video card, which you just said wouldn't happen...

So yes, I say it again... This IS news.

p.s. I don't mind a debate(you know that) but please watch the language.. I'll give you the opportunity to edit it out yourself.

[STaRGaZeR]

Again, you know there are lots of bugs in the same situation, and you know yours is not an exception, nor anything special. So why open it then? Not reported as ultra big news by press sites? It sounds like a joke, no offense. We all have this kind of bugs. And I didn't say it wouldn't happen. There are always people without the basic knowledge to know the signal that gets to the monitor is the same no matter the content of the signal itself, you know. Don't make a rule from an exception.

What language? Nothing in my post is offensive, if you find it that way please edit it yourself so I can see what exactly you do find innapropiate.

[gamervivek]

Some people may already have discovered this, but no news site has posted this issue...

When playing on a 1080p HDTV via HDMI with DX10 the 4xxx series reverts to 1080i when you select 1920x1080 as the resolution. It's unknown to me as of yet whether it occurs with all DX10 titles or just some, but it definitely occurs with the following...

Gears of War - PC
Stalker: Clear Sky
Bioshock

Crysis works fine though.

Some games work fine, but some don't. I'd like for anyone with any DX10 or higher ATi card to test various DX10 games to see if this happens to them as well. I'm assuming if you can change the refresh rate in game you can fix the issue.

To verify if it's happening to you, have your TV tell you the resolution it is running at after you start the game. If it says 1080i, the game you're playing is effected.

Also, yes, this is news as other than a few forums there's never been any talk about this situation ever. I'd like to verify if it effects HD2xxx, 3xxx, and 5xxx series cards as well.

http://forums.amd.com/game/messagevi...VIEWTMP=Linear

Here's a thread talking about it on AMD's forum, incase anyone thinks it's just me.

Also, it CAN be fixed, but it'll take some help by those who know how to edit ATi drivers to remove support for 1080i altogether, as it's apparently caused by DX10 titles automatically reverting to the first 1080 resolution found, which in the driver is 1080i. Anyone down to help take on the project?

stalker clear sky running well and good
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1392213

go through these pages and you will find solution to your problems and why they are not ati specific-
http://www.rage3d.com/BOARD/showthre...3931994&page=3

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/...m/213004273931

and finally it's not only an ati issue-
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=127857

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=230441

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...php?p=14452740

http://forums.steampowered.com/forum...d.php?t=903292


funnily enough the thread you posted itself has some posts explaining about it down below and how it's a common issue on both ait and nvidia.