Intel/EU decision evidence made public

[alcachofa]

So Intel has already been convicted by South Korea, Japan and the EU. Add the US and you have quite a nice world tour

[Frontl1ne]

it's just what happens

keep saying that when you're paying $10k for a high end CPU

[flippin_waffles]

Here's a very good read by Dr. Ruiz if anyone interested, at marketwatch.

Intel and the blame game

In a stunning four-page document -- the first time, to my knowledge, the company has publicly discussed the facts of its behavior -- Intel has apparently embraced the advice dispensed by the playwright Oscar Wilde: "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you place the blame."

Intel has been a global innovation leader in the past. It can be a global innovation leader in the future -- but not until Intel's leadership recognizes a simple truth.

As President Obama has often repeated, now is the time for a "new era of responsibility" -- particularly in business. The sooner Intel accepts a level of responsibility befitting a company of its scope, legacy and stature, and takes responsibility for its own errors, the sooner that the full benefits of competition will flow, not just to the industry, and not even just to computer manufacturers, but to computer users the world around.

[prava]

i thought they just used nvidia
and im still not convinced after going to their site

but what i did notice is the long list of $200+ software you can get preinstalled. what do i need final cut for, i thought a mac could do EEEEEVERYTHING out of the box?

anyway
what i am saying is yes it sucks but it is an opportunity and strategy that you get to use when you are the largest business.

its like saying i cannot compete with walmart because the operating costs of a corner store selling plastic forks is outrageous.

it's just what happens

I don't know exactly what did intel do this time. But, FYI, if I'm intel and you are amd, as I'm bigger than you are, I could sell my chips for a price lower than production in order to destroy you. Yes, I would loss money...but in the end I would kill your business and, as such, I would be the only competitor...and could prize they way I wanted.

The same happend with Japanese companies maaaaaany years ago: they were selling for an under-production prize..and, as they were bigger than the companies, they could be doing that for longer. In the end they were the only company. Thats why this is illegal. You can't put the prizes you want, law tries to make everything fair, whatever you are a small or a big company, it doesn't matter. Otherwise only big companies would exist.

[AndrewZorn]

I don't know exactly what did intel do this time. But, FYI, if I'm intel and you are amd, as I'm bigger than you are, I could sell my chips for a price lower than production in order to destroy you. Yes, I would loss money...but in the end I would kill your business and, as such, I would be the only competitor...and could prize they way I wanted.

The same happend with Japanese companies maaaaaany years ago: they were selling for an under-production prize..and, as they were bigger than the companies, they could be doing that for longer. In the end they were the only company. Thats why this is illegal. You can't put the prizes you want, law tries to make everything fair, whatever you are a small or a big company, it doesn't matter. Otherwise only big companies would exist.

this is capitalism. where do you draw the line? walmart sells a lot of things for less than some other businesses can get them for. places have sales all the time that sell things under cost. if my business just starts pricing aggressively one day, that makes it unfair? why is it walmart's fault that others havent got the resources they do?

keep saying that when you're paying $10k for a high end CPU

or, keep saying THAT when everybody's in perfect, fair competition with each other by making no money and staying within government constraints and there's one new cpu model every 5 years.

you guys blame intel. i blame dell and the like for being ing pussies. dell turns down intel. so do toshiba and gateway and hp. THEN guess what? intel crawls back crying.
no one wants to join dell? fine, make it public, hell even a COMMERCIAL spearheading intel and its practices and its products.

the fact that this is even a problem is because these 'deals' are like dell's unreported rapes. of course they kept happening.


the problem with this ZOMG MONOPOLY!!!! crap is that lately there has been not very much support for success. if you are the largest of anything, you get accused of doing it wrong and have to give up. the browser "ballot" thing, for example, in win7, is absurd. really really really absurd. the government should be more focused on using open source software for its computers and school computers, stopping microsoft from calling a computes with its OS on it from calling it a "PeeCee", and stop having ing CLASSES IN HIGH SCHOOL that train kids on microsoft products.


you dont take down a successful business by saying that their level of success is unreasonably high. you notice other products, go protest, etc. not get the government to step like mom and tell intel to be nice to dell.

[Glow9]

lol

YO INTEL. YOUR CORE i7 AND i5 LINE IS GREAT AND I'M REALLY HAPPY FOR YOU.. I'M MA LET YA FINISH, BUT THE AMD THUNDERBIRD WAS ONE OF THE GREATEST CPU OF ALL TIME!!

QFT

[AndrewZorn]

what did kanye west do
i still dont get the jokes

[Knight]

what did kanye west do
i still dont get the jokes

LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d8S_9PZ56M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z8gCZ7zpsQ

[AndrewZorn]

part of the reason i havent already been there is slow internet
but ill open them, go to breakfast, then watch... because the suspense is killing me

EDIT okay, so this WAS awesome

IMA LET YOU FINISH, BUT I JUST WANNA SAY...

[nemrod]

EU doesn't deserve a single DIME except for the costs associated with doing the investigation.

EU is extorting money for its own socialism.. American wealth being taken by EU is all it is,

Money should go from Intel to AMD directly.

Do you really believe that in your "free" country, only your gun could protect you from unfair business? Where did you think fines go in America? Where are gone the infineon $160 Million Fine for example ( http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/pres...004/205437.htm )? or the LG $400 millions ( http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/pres...009/245215.htm )?Do you really believe that US compagny are still present in Eu because they lose a lot of money? Are you crying when european paid twice the price?

[XSAlliN]

Do you really believe that in your "free" country, only your gun could protect you from unfair business? Where did you think fines go in America? Where are gone the infineon $160 Million Fine for example ( http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/pres...004/205437.htm )? or the LG $400 millions ( http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/pres...009/245215.htm )?Do you really believe that US compagny are still present in Eu because they lose a lot of money? Were you crying when European paid twice the price?

Neah, I bet he was happy - he's crying now, when they got nailed to the wall.

[v0dka]

this is capitalism. where do you draw the line? walmart sells a lot of things for less than some other businesses can get them for. places have sales all the time that sell things under cost. if my business just starts pricing aggressively one day, that makes it unfair? why is it walmart's fault that others havent got the resources they do?

A free market system needs certain factors to function properly, properly meaning for the benefit of all. If you cant see that a cartel - or ultimately a monopoly - has nothing to do with selling at a lower price I wont even try to convince you. I suggest picking up some basic economy books. And then take a look at the law perhaps, as that was knowingly violated by Intel as well.

To the TS, I for one am angry because of this. But it seems that the majority of the people dont really understand. And that is why we need governements to punish these firms for us. I only wish the fine would have been higher.

I wonder where all the EU hating Intel fanboys are at now?

[flippin_waffles]

A free market system needs certain factors to function properly, properly meaning for the benefit of all. If you cant see that a cartel - or ultimately a monopoly - has nothing to do with selling at a lower price I wont even try to convince you. I suggest picking up some basic economy books. And then take a look at the law perhaps, as that was knowingly violated by Intel as well.

To the TS, I for one am angry because of this. But it seems that the majority of the people dont really understand. And that is why we need governements to punish these firms for us. I only wish the fine would have been higher.

I wonder where all the EU hating Intel fanboys are at now?

[64NOMIS]

To protect competition countries have adopted laws aimed at restricting the behaviors of companies so large and powerful that those companies could, left unchecked, permanently block any new market competitior. In short, there are rules that only apply to monopolists due to the extent and asymetry of their market power. The world might be a very different place if, over the last 100 years, large monopolies had unchecked power and market influence. Think about it.

As someone directly involved, I can say I lived the direct consequences of these behaviors, and for me, it is justice that they are finally being made public. Read the memo excerpts and then imagine being the AMD Desktop Commercial Marketing Manager in 2004 and 2005?

[AndrewZorn]

i completely understand what you guys are saying
i am saying
why is it fair to let small businesses do some things and not the larger one, due to its success?
the law should bar any company from selling under cost or making exclusivity deals if this is how it feels.
its stupid to take away from a business because of how big it is

so if walmart continued to play fair and ran everyone out of business ANYWAY, then what? there's gloom and doom with them already for just being successful. theres no law against minimum wages and low prices everyday. you are missing the real issue, that mom and pop cannot compete with any large business purely on price and ubiquity. calling the cops on intel for stuff like this... why don't they go after some small-time computer store that ONLY uses intel processors? ZOMG IT IS SO UNFAIR... EVEN IF ITS HIS CHOICE AMD IS NOT GETTING WHAT THEY DESERVE...

[alcachofa]

A free market system needs certain factors to function properly, properly meaning for the benefit of all. If you cant see that a cartel - or ultimately a monopoly - has nothing to do with selling at a lower price I wont even try to convince you. I suggest picking up some basic economy books. And then take a look at the law perhaps, as that was knowingly violated by Intel as well.

To the TS, I for one am angry because of this. But it seems that the majority of the people dont really understand. And that is why we need governements to punish these firms for us. I only wish the fine would have been higher.

I wonder where all the EU hating Intel fanboys are at now?

Guess what, two of your points do appear in the American Antitrust Institute's commentary, which we can read here

[v0dka]

i completely understand what you guys are saying
i am saying
why is it fair to let small businesses do some things and not the larger one, due to its success?
the law should bar any company from selling under cost or making exclusivity deals if this is how it feels.
its stupid to take away from a business because of how big it is

so if walmart continued to play fair and ran everyone out of business ANYWAY, then what? there's gloom and doom with them already for just being successful. theres no law against minimum wages and low prices everyday. you are missing the real issue, that mom and pop cannot compete with any large business purely on price and ubiquity. calling the cops on intel for stuff like this... why don't they go after some small-time computer store that ONLY uses intel processors? ZOMG IT IS SO UNFAIR... EVEN IF ITS HIS CHOICE AMD IS NOT GETTING WHAT THEY DESERVE...

It's not about discounts, its not about being able to compete better and it certainly isnt about equal marketshare through force of the governement if thats what you mean.

It seems that you just dont understand the issue at all. Stop posting that meaningless crap and learn some basic stuff, nothing hard. Not wanting to be rude here but its like you are missing the elephant in the room, its annoying.

Start with the link above from the AAI, they explain it well in layman's terms.

[blindbox]

This thread is going to the way of the dodos soon. Before that happens, AndrewZorn, compare what happens if Intel crushes AMD. Now, compare what happens if Walmart crushes all those small shops. Walmart is a vendor, not a manufacturer. They do need to obey some prices from the manufacturer. It's not like anything's going to change for walmart. However, for Intel, they're going to cash in big, really big if AMD gets crushed.

EDIT: I don't have the time to restructure my sentence but you get what I mean. You can't take the walmart analogy.

[AndrewZorn]

im not saying its a good thing, i am saying there is not a simple solution to the problem. it is not the government's job to limit success. if you believe that current laws against monopolies are the only way things can exist then YOU are the fool.

you should realize there are other ways of thinking than your own. i believe in little government intervention in business. it is not their place. i cannot argue WHAT will ultimately happen to intel or if they decides that what they have done is in disagreeance with current law. i am trying to tell you i do not think this is right. intel should be allowed to commit 'underhanded' business practices that are not actually wrong. it is up to other companies to work around this (see my above posts, you blame the wrong company for this) and consumers to decide for themselves.

if you believe the buyers of intel's products to be incapable of any change, and truly believe there are no answers other than going to ask those in the white house to do something, then there are bigger problems here. you cant expect the government to come in and fix people being ignorant.

[god_43]

lets keep it civil guys/girls, we hurt the issue at hand by name calling (i.e thread will be closed....but so far so good, nice job).

im not saying its a good thing, i am saying there is not a simple solution to the problem. it is not the government's job to limit success. if you believe that current laws against monopolies are the only way things can exist then YOU are the fool.

you should realize there are other ways of thinking than your own. i believe in little government intervention in business. it is not their place. i cannot argue WHAT will ultimately happen to intel or if they decides that what they have done is in disagreeance with current law. i am trying to tell you i do not think this is right. intel should be allowed to commit 'underhanded' business practices that are not actually wrong. it is up to other companies to work around this (see my above posts, you blame the wrong company for this) and consumers to decide for themselves.

if you believe the buyers of intel's products to be incapable of any change, and truly believe there are no answers other than going to ask those in the white house to do something, then there are bigger problems here. you cant expect the government to come in and fix people being ignorant.

Ok now this is clearer.......at first i think many of us thought that you had not read the case, or know anything about it. turns out you do......just do not care for any checks or balances with regards to the market place. i do not agree with you (for the most part), i do agree with your assessment about how all businesses should be held accountable (your reference to smaller rivals). but i think that if there were no checks to prevent abuse of market position.......the consumers would be in a sad state of affairs right now. think what if Google or Firefox could not have won their cases against MS (like installing other browsers....or Google.....being Google), if these companies did not achieve fairness in the market place, they would have never happened. i thank you for your input though, difference makes the world go round.


i like the current MS.....btw.

[Serra]

This thread is going to the way of the dodos soon.

I'm inclined to agree.

I'm not going to close it yet because I can see some valid, topical points regarding the structure of free market economies in a world which requires government interaction coming from both camps, but one more insult and it's done.

[>HyperlogiK<]

i completely understand what you guys are saying
i am saying
why is it fair to let small businesses do some things and not the larger one, due to its success?
the law should bar any company from selling under cost or making exclusivity deals if this is how it feels.
its stupid to take away from a business because of how big it is

so if walmart continued to play fair and ran everyone out of business ANYWAY, then what? there's gloom and doom with them already for just being successful. theres no law against minimum wages and low prices everyday. you are missing the real issue, that mom and pop cannot compete with any large business purely on price and ubiquity. calling the cops on intel for stuff like this... why don't they go after some small-time computer store that ONLY uses intel processors? ZOMG IT IS SO UNFAIR... EVEN IF ITS HIS CHOICE AMD IS NOT GETTING WHAT THEY DESERVE...

At risk of sounding overly political; It's not about what is fair, it is about what is best. Government is supposed to represent us and thus they pass business legislation in the interests of the market/consumer rather than in an attempt to be as fair as possible to the companies involved. This transcends a lot of political standpoints, even though most laissez faire types might not agree with certain policies they would probably still regard total non intervention as best for the consumer.

This is going to sound really condescending but the moral intuition that might guide one in day to day interactions isn't necessarily completely appropriate for evaluating a scenario such as this. I don't claim to know any better than you in this department, I just know I might not do well to trust my 'folk moral' instincts if I were put in the position of a judge or legislator involved in this kind of decision making.

[god_43]

I'm inclined to agree.

I'm not going to close it yet because I can see some valid, topical points regarding the structure of free market economies in a world which requires government interaction coming from both camps, but one more insult and it's done.

....omg dude i love you're avatar!

[AndrewZorn]

At risk of sounding overly political; It's not about what is fair, it is about what is best. Government is supposed to represent us and thus they pass business legislation in the interests of the market/consumer rather than in an attempt to be as fair as possible to the companies involved. This transcends a lot of political standpoints, even though most laissez faire types might not agree with certain policies they would probably still regard total non intervention as best for the consumer.

This is going to sound really condescending but the moral intuition that might guide one in day to day interactions isn't necessarily completely appropriate for evaluating a scenario such as this. I don't claim to know any better than you in this department, I just know I might not do well to trust my 'folk moral' instincts if I were put in the position of a judge or legislator involved in this kind of decision making.

i guess im just one who believes the government should be doing as little as possible (not a joke, and also not what it sounds like)... i mean they should stop people from killing each other and stealing but i dont think they should tell people they cant own automatic firearms or bust kids for drinking alcohol or fund rich people's presidential campaigns.

[[XC] riptide]

New Autobahn! Thanks Intel!! /coat


On Topic: The EU Commission will drip feed evidence for months to come, and it will culminate in the US hearing later. Is it next year that is happening? The FTC hearing? Anyway... the EU should send a big thank you letter to the FTC, because the FTC hung Intel out to dry for the EU commission. All you stealing US wealth people need to understand... it was YOUR FTC that supplied a good portion of the evidence...