[Review] Indigo Xtreme vs. AS5, MX-2, IC Diamond, Shin-Etsu X23-7783D

[Vapor]

Hmmm...just used up one out of four of my Indigo Xtreme mounts...it was a to mount in my water loop since all of my hoses are cut right down to size so there is not much movement possible anywhere and stripping the whole thing down was not a possibility. I had to mount it without removing the CPU so I cleaned as good as I could with everything still in there...there was no residue on the cloth or the wipe by the end anywhere, nor on the IHS or the waterblock.

Anyway, mixed opinions so far since my idle temperatures at 4.55GHz seem 3C - 4C higher than with the TIM I was using before. However, since I do not have an air conditioned room and the ambient temps vary all the time I am not sure if this is just related to ambient being higher since it is mid-day now. I will have to check it early in the morning when I know what the actual temps are around the comp area. How do you tell anyway if the mount is successful? I mean my temps are not in the 80s or anything at idle, around ~50C now at 4.55GHz with HT on and 4.33GHz Uncore, 1.505V idle, 1.446V load. Wouldn't it be all or nothing with this ETI...as in like if the mount is bad then transfer is plain going to suck no matter what...

Few other observations/comments...

1. Doing the re-flow with a beefy chipset block like the EK full cover on my Classified in series with the CPU block is perfectly safe. I monitored the MOSFET temps using Everest while loading all of the cores/logical cores at stock speeds using Prime95 blend and even after 3-4 minutes the temperatures of the MOSFETs did not exceed 48C even though the pumps were both off. I do not assume that the NB is any different but the Classified cannot report NB temps in an OS, at least for now so...
2. I am of a strong belief that the computer needs to be ideally horizontal on all horizontal planes if you really want to get a good mount. Use of some kind of tool to determine if the board is ideally horizontal is probably recommended.
3. I'm not sure whether the metal mass of the ETI will damage or warp the bottom of the HK block. Copper is very soft and the metal portion before re-flow is a bulge that presses into the copper quite hard once the block is tightened properly. I would not be surprised if it does deform the copper or that this would also apply for pretty much any other block or heatsink made of softer metals. I guess we will find out once the block is removed...if it does deform the copper then I guess once you go Indigo you stay Indigo
4. If the pumps stop running while the computer is vertical the ETI is done for though hopefully the actual metal cannot leak onto other components of the board. This is just a speculation so if somebody wants to verify it feel free
5. Really meant for one-time builds. People who take their systems apart often would likely not find this very practical. Cost and installation complexity (particularly with internalized water cooled systems) are kind of prohibitive.

Overall, seems a decent product but I definitely need to do more testing. Hard when each of these costs $9 per mount lol

Yeah, I have to admit I totally neglected to think about systems with other blocks in the loop when I said that this was an easy install. In a single block loop or on air, it really isn't hard at all. With multiple blocks, you do need to be careful...add in the perfectly routed tubing that a lot of folks have and it gets even more complicated

Glad to see it went well for you, will be great to hear what load temps you get when you have a known/constant ambient

AFAIK, the ETI style is an all or nothing thing...the amount and placement of TIM is perfectly consistent, there's no (noticeable) shades of gray in success it seems. Minute differences in placement and such will give minute differences in performance, but the blue lines are pretty good guides.

1) Good to hear the MOSFETs and IOH survived that well...did you use much airflow or were the blocks good enough on their own?
2) Horizontal is a must, if someone wants to use a level, that just makes it Xtreme
3) The alloy IX uses is softer than copper...way softer I think. I did three mounts on the GTZ and there were no ill effects at all, the base was perfect after them.
4) Yeah, that's a genuine concern....I'd hope that the plastic frame would be cool enough to resolidify the molten TIM before it dripped off. Though when overclocked, it's more than likely that the system will shut-off from instability at high temperatures long before the alloy can melt.
5) It's definitely for one-time builds for watercoolers and aircoolers. I'm still curious how it'll do with LN2, where a single session is $20-$50 already and a few degrees (on AMD) or better control (on Intel) is potentially worth it. (though verdict is still out if it works at extreme cold temperatures...hopefully there will be some conclusive evidence soon ).

i have a question about the whole turning the pump off to burn it in. wouldnt it be easier and a little safer just to overvolt the cpu a bit, run the pump at its lowest possible voltage then run occt? to me that seems less scary

That won't work (fortunately and unfortunately)....you need the base of the cooler and the IHS to exceed 70C. Even with a tiny amount of flow (like .1GPM), you'll be hard pressed to hit 45C. It's just easier (and less painless) to just stop flow and go to stock CPU speeds/volts

EDIT: beaten by a couple people

[dejanh]

Yeah, I have to admit I totally neglected to think about systems with other blocks in the loop when I said that this was an easy install. In a single block loop or on air, it really isn't hard at all. With multiple blocks, you do need to be careful...add in the perfectly routed tubing that a lot of folks have and it gets even more complicated

Glad to see it went well for you, will be great to hear what load temps you get when you have a known/constant ambient

AFAIK, the ETI style is an all or nothing thing...the amount and placement of TIM is perfectly consistent, there's no (noticeable) shades of gray in success it seems. Minute differences in placement and such will give minute differences in performance, but the blue lines are pretty good guides.

1) Good to hear the MOSFETs and IOH survived that well...did you use much airflow or were the blocks good enough on their own?
2) Horizontal is a must, if someone wants to use a level, that just makes it Xtreme
3) The alloy IX uses is softer than copper...way softer I think. I did three mounts on the GTZ and there were no ill effects at all, the base was perfect after them.
4) Yeah, that's a genuine concern....I'd hope that the plastic frame would be cool enough to resolidify the molten TIM before it dripped off. Though when overclocked, it's more than likely that the system will shut-off from instability at high temperatures long before the alloy can melt.
5) It's definitely for one-time builds for watercoolers and aircoolers. I'm still curious how it'll do with LN2, where a single session is $20-$50 already and a few degrees (on AMD) or better control (on Intel) is potentially worth it. (though verdict is still out if it works at extreme cold temperatures...hopefully there will be some conclusive evidence soon ).

That won't work (fortunately and unfortunately)....you need the base of the cooler and the IHS to exceed 70C. Even with a tiny amount of flow (like .1GPM), you'll be hard pressed to hit 45C. It's just easier (and less painless) to just stop flow and go to stock CPU speeds/volts

EDIT: beaten by a couple people

1. The EK-FB EVGA X58 Classified block was good on its own. There was only very minimal airflow around, so minimal that it could not have made a difference really. You should have seen me sweating when I hit the Ok button on the Blend Torture Test before I saw that the temps pretty much did not move. Definitely a properly mounted block with a bit of copper mass to it will do fine to protect the components from burning out during the re-flow process.
2. Yeah, next mount is with a level but that will wait until I complete my move in about 2 weeks
3. Good to know. Will verify personally in the near future.
4. The main issue is that the processor itself has thermal throttling which on stock settings or stable overclocks may not cause a crash or a shutdown and a pump stopping while the system is upright is the equivalent of doing a re-flow vertically. Down goes all of the liquefied metal. It would be nice to know how long it takes for the alloy to cool under room temperature. Either way though unless something captures it you will either get drips or solidified droplets all over the place and probably a short or two.
5. I'm thinking to email the manufacturer and absolutely confirm 3, ask about 4, and see what is the maximum low temperature before the allow will crack.

[Vapor]

Before the instructions were finalized (or in the form they're in now, I suppose they'll always be changing as they learn more about the enthusiast community and all the complications it brings)....I tried reflow overclocked and overvolted. Unplugged the pump and instant lock-up. Tried again at stock speeds and overvolted, therm-trip kicked in about 3 seconds (~125C...what it does when even throttling won't work) and rebooted the system. In an overclocked system with a pump failure, I really wouldn't worry about the TIM melting again...you'll have incredible instability or hit thermtrip before it gets a chance to melt and drip. Down at stock speeds though, that's another story.

As for how it does subzero, I've been talking to Enerdyne about it and they're curious about it as well...that's how I know it'll be tested really cold soon enough

[dejanh]

Before the instructions were finalized (or in the form they're in now, I suppose they'll always be changing as they learn more about the enthusiast community and all the complications it brings)....I tried reflow overclocked and overvolted. Unplugged the pump and instant lock-up. Tried again at stock speeds and overvolted, therm-trip kicked in about 3 seconds (~125C...what it does when even throttling won't work) and rebooted the system. In an overclocked system with a pump failure, I really wouldn't worry about the TIM melting again...you'll have incredible instability or hit thermtrip before it gets a chance to melt and drip. Down at stock speeds though, that's another story.

As for how it does subzero, I've been talking to Enerdyne about it and they're curious about it as well...that's how I know it'll be tested really cold soon enough

Just out of curiosity, when you say you tried it overclocked and overvolted what kind of overclock are we talking about here...there are a lot of individuals that run very moderate overclocks in the range of 3.4GHz to 3.8GHz and these will often run on stock settings so "stock" behavior will generally apply which could cause the alloy to go liquid...I've just emailed Enerdyne with a few questions so we'll see what they say.

I'm not personally particularly worried about it. This is more a curiosity thing than anything based on some thoughts I had while testing my first mount

Edit: Another detail I just thought of...if my memory serves me well the R2E from Asus has the ability to disable thermal limits permanently on the CPU and I think some individuals use this setting for god knows what reason. Anyway, you see where I'm going with this...if they have thermal throttling disabled they may burn their chips when installing this ETI. Not really an Enerdyne problem per say but maybe worth mentioning in the instructions for them. I'm not 100% sure on this ability of R2E since I am not longer in the possession of the board but I am 99% sure it had that ability.

[Vapor]

My test settings....so 4.2ghz, HT on, more voltage than necessary

I guess a moderate OC will do it as well....though stock is easily the most dangerous of all the settings, IMO (hardest to hit thermtrip).

[ieatrawbacos]

Edit: Another detail I just thought of...if my memory serves me well the R2E from Asus has the ability to disable thermal limits permanently on the CPU and I think some individuals use this setting for god knows what reason. Anyway, you see where I'm going with this...if they have thermal throttling disabled they may burn their chips when installing this ETI. Not really an Enerdyne problem per say but maybe worth mentioning in the instructions for them. I'm not 100% sure on this ability of R2E since I am not longer in the possession of the board but I am 99% sure it had that ability.

Plenty of boards can disable PROCHOT throttling, but I would be very surprised if the higher temperature thermal trip (auto power down at ~125C) could be disabled. I had always figured that was an innate and unadjustable feature of the CPU, but I could be wrong.

[rge]

Testing reasons aside, I never understood why people turn off cpu thermal monitor/prochot in bios either since it has nothing to do with overclocking.

On GB board, disabling bidirectional prochot and cpu thermal monitor, throttling no longer occured at 100C, but thermatrip still worked on E8400, E7200, and E8600 the multiple times I tried it (around 122C on my E8400). (Trying to figure out tjmax in realtemp thread 1-2yrs ago by measuring core with thermocouple via drilled hole in IHS, etc verses core temp software reading, was not just randomly torturing my cpus).

Never damaged any running it to thermatrip, except the E7200 trying to read bare core temp with IR after removing the IHS and melted/smoked, before thermatrip kicked in.

Edit: I run realtemp always and with cpu alarm/shutdown at 85C, and gpu alarm/shutdown computer at 75C. Not a bad idea to have some shutdown program anyways to avoid all pump failure issues, but I would like to see what happens if you reflow while vertical...though not worried about it happening.

[dejanh]

Testing reasons aside, I never understood why people turn off cpu thermal monitor/prochot in bios either since it has nothing to do with overclocking.

On GB board, disabling bidirectional prochot and cpu thermal monitor, throttling no longer occured at 100C, but thermatrip still worked on E8400, E7200, and E8600 the multiple times I tried it (around 122C on my E8400). (Trying to figure out tjmax in realtemp thread 1-2yrs ago by measuring core with thermocouple via drilled hole in IHS, etc verses core temp software reading, was not just randomly torturing my cpus).

Never damaged any running it to thermatrip, except the E7200 trying to read bare core temp with IR after removing the IHS and melted/smoked, before thermatrip kicked in.

Edit: I run realtemp always and with cpu alarm/shutdown at 85C, and gpu alarm/shutdown computer at 75C. Not a bad idea to have some shutdown program anyways to avoid all pump failure issues, but I would like to see what happens if you reflow while vertical...though not worried about it happening.

Well, I think I have some answers direct from Chris and Enerdyne...but first my questions for Enerdyne...

1. How do you differentiate a successful re-flow from an unsuccessful
one? Would the ETI behave as all or nothing or are there gradients of
performance depending on the re-flow success assuming the installation
was done properly otherwise?

2. How critical is that the socket be ideally horizontal on all plains?

3. How hard is the alloy used in IX in its solid state in reference to
copper or aluminum? Basically, me and a few other people testing this
were wondering whether there is any chance that the solid metal alloy
could deform the copper base of some water blocks when they are
tightened down during preparation for re-flow.

4. If IX is used in a water-cooled system and the pump(s) stop(s) to
function while the system is upright thermal throttling may prevent the
system form crashing but cause the temperature between the IHS and water
block to rise to a point where the alloy would become liquefied. If
this happens would the alloy drip downward at this point or drip out and
then cool to form tiny metal droplets that could short components? How
conductive is the alloy (i.e., could it short components)? Finally, how
long does it take to solidify at room temperature?

5. What is the freezing/cracking temperature of the metal alloy used in
IX. I am particularly curious what would happen if this ETI was used in
a Phase, SS, or LN2 cooled system.

And now the answers from Enerdyne...

1. If installation deviated from the Guide and temperature profiles were not
observed/followed, you may have varying degrees of reflow (analog: from zero
to complete reflow) and therefore performance differences.

2. We have not quantified this yet; typical desk/tabletop/lab bench is ok.

3. The alloy is far softer and Al or Cu (it is softer than tin); Brinell
hardness: IX alloy is ~1/10 to 1/20 the hardness of a typical Al alloy or
Cu.

4. If IX has already reflowed (in the horizontal position), solidified and
placed in the vertical position, the high surface energies of the lid and
block surface will prevent material migration (while liquid); this all
assumes you actually reach reflow again; additionally, any excess alloy on
the PET-based IX frame may be trapped and quenched immediately as it is no
longer thermally connected to the CPU. The alloy is conductive, similar to
solder.

5. IX includes a significant qty of Indium which cold flows (compliant) even
at cryogenic temperatures; we have arranged for a LN2 reviewer to test IX
(AM3); we are curious as well

There you go...now we know a bit more

[rge]

Thanks for info, dejanh.

The variable performance response is interesting, the 2 things I did differently ....below is a pic of the level I told you I used on cpu socket, got it at home depot back when hanging a tv on wall, that and I used calipers so all 4 screws on HK were 18.8 mm (supposed to be 19.6 but I had uselessly lapped mine, not .8mm, but just what I used). I was just trying to make sure the reflow was thin and uniform, especially after vapor made point of saying make sure horizontal.

You can see even my desktop is not exactly level, but my cpu socket was during reflow.

[Adhmuz]

So I got mine this morning, and installed it. The process took me almost an hour and was very nerve wracking, I must of heated up the room by a good 5 degrees. Re-flow has to be one of the scariest things ever, all settings on default and let it boot up, hardcore throttling until it started to set. Temps dropped (not as much as I was expecting) then climbed back up to 92*C, plugged in fans and let it cool off. Thus far my temperatures are no lower than they were before, they're about the same if not a little hotter. But as I said I warmed up my room with all my nervousness during installation. When it gets cooler I'll know for sure if its better or worse right now I cant say.

[ptrout]

Follow up.

Fried VID card.... RMA denied
Something i saw from removing 1st attempt.
Temp variation on core 1 and 3 were due to a thick layer that deposited in the screw holes of HK3.0....must have seeped in then solidified during re-flow.


2nd go at IX

What I learned from first attempt is leveling is very very important, and pressure on the mounting is as important.
I backed off a bit on the pressure, seems to allow for better re-flow.
Did everything as per guide, successful this time around, though core 3 runs 5C hotter idle and 5C cooler at peak.

Overall drop in temp is a whopping 10C from IC7.
One oddity during the re-flow, I used prime stress test to load the cores.
During the process cores 1,2,4, all hit 99~102 C during peak, and throttling kicked in. However core 3 never went past 92C, so not sure if the re-flow process was messed up directly over that core ? I find it odd that during idle core 3 runs 5C hotter 37C vs 31C-32C for the other cores, but under load, it never tops 56C while other cores hit 60~63.

Its impressive stuff.

[malik22]

whats the best paste out of these three?

MX-2
MX-3
OCZ freeze

[masska]

whats the best paste out of these three?

MX-2
MX-3
OCZ freeze

wrong place to be asking!
here is a review of tims

[Nelly]

Those reviews are old now i.e. March 2008, MX-3 isnt included as well as Coollaboratory Liquid Metal Pro.

[Ultim8]

just for info guys on the IE I work for a large disti in the UK and have contacted them about Distributing the product in the UK and europe so hopefully we can help out getting this product out to the UK and European users

I will let you know how it goes and if they accept where you can expect to get the product

Cheers

Ulti

[Ar3s]

Could you please do a mini update with the new matrix tim by arctic silver & tim-consultants available from PTS ?

[Vapor]

Yeah, I'm working on a part 2 of TIM testing and saw that as well at a few places, so I'm definitely considering it. My gut says "it must be good" because it's the first new consumer TIM from Arctic Silver in quite some time, so it's probably worth it to pick up a couple tubes with my next PTS order

The main difference from part 1 to part 2 is that I'm planning on doing this series of tests on an AMD CPU (965BE). I know I'll be testing Indigo Xtreme, X23-7783D, MX-2 (or MX-3, I don't know if I'm going to do both), Arctic Silver Lumiere, and probably 2-3 others (I'm open to suggestions, this AS Matrix looks like a good one).

[Vapor]

Alright, yeah, double post...but I want input for my next batch of testing

For my 2nd batch of TIM tests, I've decided I want to test 6 TIMs (scheduling reasons), and here are the givens: Indigo Xtreme, X23-7783D, MX-#, and Arctic Silver Lumiere. If I include AS Matrix, MX-2 and MX-3, that pushes it to six. I would prefer not to test AS5, Ceramique, or IC Diamond again (especially the latter). I'm really asking for suggestions here more than anything.

Here's my thought process though: Indigo Xtreme for AMD I already have here and is waiting to be tested, so that's a given. X23-7783D was the best paste last time, so I think it should automatically be passed on to Round 2 to see if it gets dethroned. MX-2 is a mainstay in this community and I think it's a solid reference point for A LOT of readers. I don't think I gave a fair shake to MX-3 last time (seeing as I learned to use it as testing progressed--never a good thing), but I'm not sure how much I want to test it again...it's obvious it beats MX-2 but won't catch X23-7783D (from what I've seen). I need to test Lumiere before my next batch of CPU block tests (if all goes right with Lumiere, it will improve my block tests on many levels).

If there is exceptional cause, I will push it to 7 TIMs (I'll basically make Lumiere its own test vs. MX-2), but from the look of what's available on P-PCs/FCPU/PTS/Sidewinder/Newegg/etc, I'm not seeing anything that jumps out at me. AS Matrix is sounding better and better (since it's new, it'll be fun to test--and Arctic Silver hasn't delivered a new consumer TIM in years), but I'd like to hear thoughts of others

EDIT: I'm considering dropping MX-3 and testing something assumed to be bad, like a thermal pad or something like that. We have no idea how it performs...nor do we really have perspective on the darkside of TIM performance.

[dejanh]

Alright, yeah, double post...but I want input for my next batch of testing

For my 2nd batch of TIM tests, I've decided I want to test 6 TIMs (scheduling reasons), and here are the givens: Indigo Xtreme, X23-7783D, MX-#, and Arctic Silver Lumiere. If I include AS Matrix, MX-2 and MX-3, that pushes it to six. I would prefer not to test AS5, Ceramique, or IC Diamond again (especially the latter). I'm really asking for suggestions here more than anything.

Here's my thought process though: Indigo Xtreme for AMD I already have here and is waiting to be tested, so that's a given. X23-7783D was the best paste last time, so I think it should automatically be passed on to Round 2 to see if it gets dethroned. MX-2 is a mainstay in this community and I think it's a solid reference point for A LOT of readers. I don't think I gave a fair shake to MX-3 last time (seeing as I learned to use it as testing progressed--never a good thing), but I'm not sure how much I want to test it again...it's obvious it beats MX-2 but won't catch X23-7783D (from what I've seen). I need to test Lumiere before my next batch of CPU block tests (if all goes right with Lumiere, it will improve my block tests on many levels).

If there is exceptional cause, I will push it to 7 TIMs (I'll basically make Lumiere its own test vs. MX-2), but from the look of what's available on P-PCs/FCPU/PTS/Sidewinder/Newegg/etc, I'm not seeing anything that jumps out at me. AS Matrix is sounding better and better (since it's new, it'll be fun to test--and Arctic Silver hasn't delivered a new consumer TIM in years), but I'd like to hear thoughts of others

EDIT: I'm considering dropping MX-3 and testing something assumed to be bad, like a thermal pad or something like that. We have no idea how it performs...nor do we really have perspective on the darkside of TIM performance.

I'm curious about AS Matrix, particularly because of this statement about the new product..

"Matrix’s silicone suspension fluid and conductive fillers are engineered for easy application and superior surface wetting. This enhances performance in moderate bond line applications and offers better performance than other Arctic Silver retail market thermal compounds in large bond line situations."

Sounds to me like this TIM is designed for liberal application but at the same time this does not say much for small applications such as when doing the rice-grain method...

Edit: Having a baseline TIM such as a thermal pad is not a bad idea. Then we can really rank performance.

[Equinediver]

Yes, it would be good to see a test on the new AS Matrix. One problem I can foresee is getting accurate results, as according to their website it takes 300 hours to cure

Quot from AS Matrix website:

it will take a minimum of 300 hours and multiple thermal cycles to achieve maximum particle to particle thermal conduction and for the heatsink to CPU interface to reach maximum conductivity

[WaterFlex]

Wow! Never heard about this stuff! Trying to get it!

[Vapor]

Alright, so I decided to drop Lumiere from the roundup and make it a separate entity, so that opens up space for one more I guess.

Indigo Xtreme
X23-7783D
MX-2
AS Matrix
Open slot #1
Open slot #2

I won't do the Coollaboratory stuff (I like my blocks too much and need them to be untainted for future testing with them). I don't want to do IC Diamond again (my CPU has been polished enough, thank you).

I'm ordering a Luna Rev.A from Newegg for my WB testing, so I figured I might as well try a couple from there?

Wildcard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835200052 (Rosewill, silver paint basically)
Baseline: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835230029 (most generic paste I can find anywhere)

EDIT: or I can do Gelid-Extreme or whatever

[WaterFlex]

Thats a nice idea, Vapor

[masska]

ok I understand about Coolab and your hesitation to use it, good performer but it is an absolute pain in the ass to clean off.
are you still going to use thermal pads for this test and if so which ones?
I have some Phobya pads I can send you if you like.
looking forward to round 2

Alright, so I decided to drop Lumiere from the roundup and make it a separate entity, so that opens up space for one more I guess.

Indigo Xtreme
X23-7783D
MX-2
AS Matrix
Open slot #1
Open slot #2

I won't do the Coollaboratory stuff (I like my blocks too much and need them to be untainted for future testing with them). I don't want to do IC Diamond again (my CPU has been polished enough, thank you).

I'm ordering a Luna Rev.A from Newegg for my WB testing, so I figured I might as well try a couple from there?

Wildcard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835200052 (Rosewill, silver paint basically)
Baseline: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835230029 (most generic paste I can find anywhere)

EDIT: or I can do Gelid-Extreme or whatever

[Vapor]

Regarding the Coollaboratory stuff, I considered using it for round 1...did a single trial mount with it before real testing started and took me almost 2 hours to clean off my block

I've used it for 24/7 on a GPU and I like its performance, but for something like this where I need the blocks to not change (ever), it's not viable.

I've gone from a pad to the generic paste--I think it's a more useful baseline since there are so many variations of pads these days (but generic silicone TIM is pretty ubiquitous).

Still searching for something to fill the sixth slot Debating between a wildcard like the Rosewill or something like the Gelid-Extreme that is doing well in other reviews.