Inquiries and Discussion (And Hello!)

[Armitage]

Hello everyone. Long time reader, first time posting =].

After hours... Days... Months even, of research. I have come a long way into what exactly I plan for my first Water Cooling build. It started with ugly worm clamps and has evolved into much more. So let me explain what I currently have planned.

Watercooling Setup

1. Blocks: 85$ + 125$ + 145$
   
   • HEATKILLER® CPU Rev3.0 1366
   • EK-FC275 GTX SLI - Nickel
   • EK-FB KIT EVGA X58 CLASSIFIED Full Board North/Southbridge Water Block - Act+Nik
2. Rad: 160$ Feser X-Changer QUAD 480 Extreme Performance Radiator
3. Pump: 68$ + 25$
   
   • Swiftech MCP355 12v DC Pump
   • EK Waterblocks EK-DDC X-Top Rev 2 - Acetal
4. Res : 47$ EK Waterblocks EK-Multioption RES 250 rev.2
5. Fans : 30$ 3x Scythe DFS123812-3000 "ULTRA KAZE" 120 x 38 mm
   
6. Fan Controller : 40$ ZALMAN MFC1 Plus-B Black 6 Channel Multi Fan Controller
   
7. Tubing/Liquid/Clamps: 30$ + 3$ + 70$ + 70$
   
   • 10 ft PrimoFlex Pro LRT White Tubing - 7/16in. ID X 5/8in. OD
   • Petra'sTech PT_Nuke -PHN Concentrated Biocide (10mL)
   • 14x Bitspower 7/16in. Compression Fittings for 5/8in. OD Tubing
   • 6x Bitspower Shining Silver Rotary 45 G 1/4 Threads # BP-45-R

Total: $900

This is for an i7 920 and obviously a gtx275. Case will be TJ07 because there's nothing else that compares.

At first I wasn't planning on cooling anything more then the CPU. But that leaves quite a bit of hot air in the computer, so I decided to WC the GPU. So I've pretty much decided I'm going to cool the chipset. I was going to buy the Rampage II E, but have decided the Classified goes better with my color scheme (White/black). So first

1) I currently have a 120.3 Rad picked out. But I know the 120.4 will fit the TJ07. Should I upgrade to it if I decide to WC the motherboard. I plan on OC the CPU as far as I can push it. So that also worries me. I don't really plan to OC the GPU. Will that be enough to cool those 3? And will there be enough flow through the loop to effectively do so. I know the motherboard blocks kill flow rates. EK-FB KIT EVGA X58 CLASSIFIED Full Board North/Southbridge Water Block - Act+Nik Is what I have in mind. If I do go this route, I plan on coming from the Rad>GPU>CPU>Mobo>Res. Because coming from the Rad all the way to the CPU creates too long of a tube, and looks bad. Will that hurt the OC'ing Potential?
I contemplated a dual loop, but really don't know how capable I am of that for my first build. I thought if I added another GPU at a later date, that I would also change my WC setup. Lemmie know what you think.

2) Considering this is my first WC setup, the whole drain/fill thing also bothers me. Filling I assume I can just funnel the liquid into the top of the res. But draining is another issue. I was thinking of putting a line somewhere at the bottom, but I can't figure out how to effectively do that and still make everything look clean - Any ideas?

3) I want a different fan controller. But I don't want one that Looks like trash. This is going to be a clean build, and most fan controllers look like garbage. I was looking at the aquareos (butchered spelling), but It looks like almost too much.

4)Speaking of fans, I know good choices are GT's, Yates, Slims, S-Flex's etc. So I may change up my fan choice. Noise isn't 100% an issue. I'd like to be able to adjust the fans to where I can't really hear them, but also be able to have performance for benchmarks.

5) When I was picking 45' Angle fittings. I figured you have to use rotaries right? Because the 45' (Here) if you tried to screw them into a thread, they are stuck that whatever angle they screw in at. I dunno if that makes sense... Hopefully it does.

I come up with new questions everyday it seems like. But I'll leave it at this for now.

Thanks for any replies and suggestions.

[dreamaxx]

I will never trust a fan controller again

[alacheesu]

1. Put the biggest rad you can into your case. You'll be kicking yourself forever unless you do that. Get a rad from the HWLabs GTX series if you don't mind the noise from high speed fans. A GTX + high speed fans has some serious cooling potential. It performs well at medium speed too, but at slow speed it lags behind the rads more optimized for that range. I think you need some decent fans if you plan to cool a 920 OC'ed as far as possible + a 275 on a triple rad. Loop order looks fine.

2. I like this fan controller. The Scythe Kaze Master is pretty sweet also, but I like the minimalist look more.

3. I don't think you'll find a fan that covers the range from almost inaudible to 3000rpm, but I could very well be wrong. Noise is subjective though, and I'm a silence freak.

[Armitage]

Thanks for the input alacheesu.

If I was going for striaght performance, over noise in this case. The HWLabs GTX would perform better then the xchanger480?

[shazza]

Welcome to XS, Armitage.

Looks like you've done your research, so not much to add. You will be "okay" with the triple rad (XSPC and the new HW Labs SR1s are also good choices), but may decide you'd like more if you do your chipset and add another GPU. You can look at putting a 240 in the top or in the front bays (or even a 120 on the exhaust fan, I think).

Lots of fan choices these days ... the Gentle Typhoons seem to be quite popular and do a good job, as do the others you've mentioned.

Definitely go with the rotary 45s ... you can get them now with the compression fitting built in. You might want to pick up a couple extras, cause they are very handy!

Re the drain situation ... yep, it's important to know how you are going to drain it. There are several threads here that discuss drains (too late for me to do a search .

What motherboard are you planning to use? If you think you'll want to add blocks down the road, good idea to pick one of the popular ones that have blocks.

Not sure what the situation is with the GTX 275 cards (are they all reference PCBs?). Just make sure you confirm that the block is compatible with the card before purchase.

Can't think of anything else off the top of my head. Good Luck, and enjoy the building process. I'm sure you've read all about leak testing

[Armitage]

Thanks for the reply Shazza. I'm up late listening to some Tool And drinking tea. It's a good thinking environment =]

Anywho. I like the GT's. But I kinda of want to go with something more powerful, or the option to blow more air. But I don't know if the x38mm depth of those Sycthes will fit.

The only Compression Rotary i can find is the feser one. Am I missing something?

- Also, I posted the block I planned on using with the Classified : Here. Biggest questions is how much flow does it effect?

I havn't made 100% sure the gtx block will fit, but I'll worry about that when I actually order everything.


Also I just came the realization that if I go with the 120.4 rad, I wont be able to fit a 120.2 down there(On the TJ07) if I decide to add another loop. I've seen 360 + 240 down there, but not a 480 and 240. Hmmm.

[Jah]

I would just skip cooling the MB as a start, on your first build try, to keep it as simple as possible. The benefits of liquid cooling the NB/SB is questionable at best, just stick a fan on it

Regarding rad size, bigger is better, get as much rad area as you can fit in the case and then get enough fan to cope with the heat, noise is not a non issue in the long run.

Shazza have a good point make sure you get a working combination of GPU layout and FC block, it's a jungle out there.

[millertime359]

Hey bud, just wanted to pop in and say .

On my way to work now, but I'll check in later. It seems you are getting your questions answered though.

[Armitage]

I would just skip cooling the MB as a start, on your first build try, to keep it as simple as possible. The benefits of liquid cooling the NB/SB is questionable at best, just stick a fan on it

Regarding rad size, bigger is better, get as much rad area as you can fit in the case and then get enough fan to cope with the heat, noise is not a non issue in the long run.

Shazza have a good point make sure you get a working combination of GPU layout and FC block, it's a jungle out there.

70% of the reason I want to WC the Nb/Mosfet/SB is because it helps with tube length and looks. I know that sounds silly, hah. But If I go from GPU>CPU>Res, it doesn't look at good as it would if I add that block in. I understand your hesitation though. I have quite a bit to think about.

I guess I have no reason to not go for the 480 =]

[millertime359]

I may look into the T3 for your res. With a full internal build and a regular tower case, it is a breeze to fill, and not much harder to drain. It will also allow you to run parallel loops. A few guys have compared temps between T3 parallel and try dual loops and haven't seen any real temp difference.

If you want to do dual loops. A pair of DDCs with a XSPC restops work pretty well. They are compact and get the job done. Yon can also look into the XSPC dual 5 1/4" res. It now has a divider that allows for a true dual loop setup.

Drain line isn't too hard. You can do T-lines in lowest point of case and use these ball valves. You screw a barb into it and a spare peice of hose run to a bucket and let er rip.

Depending on the res you settle on, filling can be done with a funnel, one of those injectors, and/or a fillport.

I love my GTs, but if you don't mind noise, some Panos or Deltas on those high FPI HW Lab rads are suppose to do nice for cooling. It will get loud though. I may look into a 480 and a 220 though. I would also look into the XSPC or HW Labs SR1s instead, like Shazza linked you. You might get a little annoyed at the noise after a while and those will still perform quite nice.

[Sadasius]

I will never trust a fan controller again

Ah it is how you use them that defines the guru. Relying on a fan controller itself can cause disaster when your fans don't turn on or just turn off on it's own. Use a back up like setting BIOS for fan RPM in a hard fail situation to shut down. It's easy to do...Just run one RPM wire to the mobo. It's all you need. That one fan goes down, the system shuts off. I have many fail safes built in to my system from flow sensing to temps and RPM. Any of the three goes wonky then it simply shuts down. Nice and simple like! Plus I don't like voltage drop fan controllers. I like the PWM one's as they can handle more power and also use the current the fan was meant to run on.

To the OP...Welcome!

[Armitage]

I may look into the T3 for your res. With a full internal build and a regular tower case, it is a breeze to fill, and not much harder to drain. It will also allow you to run parallel loops. A few guys have compared temps between T3 parallel and try dual loops and haven't seen any real temp difference.

If you want to do dual loops. A pair of DDCs with a XSPC restops work pretty well. They are compact and get the job done. Yon can also look into the XSPC dual 5 1/4" res. It now has a divider that allows for a true dual loop setup.

Drain line isn't too hard. You can do T-lines in lowest point of case and use these ball valves. You screw a barb into it and a spare peice of hose run to a bucket and let er rip.

Depending on the res you settle on, filling can be done with a funnel, one of those injectors, and/or a fillport.

I love my GTs, but if you don't mind noise, some Panos or Deltas on those high FPI HW Lab rads are suppose to do nice for cooling. It will get loud though. I may look into a 480 and a 220 though. I would also look into the XSPC or HW Labs SR1s instead, like Shazza linked you. You might get a little annoyed at the noise after a while and those will still perform quite nice.

I considered the T3, but never quite liked the look. If I ran dual loop, it would definitely involve 2 of EK's multioption.

Thanks for all the advice.

I have 2 more questions.

1) I can't find a direct comparison of the XSPC and hardware labs rads compared to the Feser. I looked in the sticky, but the results vary test to test. Some had the Feser, but didn't have the HWlabs etc.

2) It seems some people like the DDC's over the D5's. Which one strictly performs better? The D5 has better GPH of course, but I've read it depends on your loop. This might be a redundant question, I'll try the search feature.

[millertime359]

The DDC vs D5 debate is 50/50 it seems. If you wish to run dual loops, I would get the DDCs. They are smaller, therefore easier find spots to mount them. The GPH doesn't really matter with WC'ing. Head pressure is what matters. DDCs tend to have more than a D5, making them a little easier to put up with restrictive loops. They both work just fine and it is pretty hard to say one performs better than the other.

For the rads. I would just look over this test. You may have to google or try the search function to find more on the Feser.

[alacheesu]

1) I can't find a direct comparison of the XSPC and hardware labs rads compared to the Feser. I looked in the sticky, but the results vary test to test. Some had the Feser, but didn't have the HWlabs etc.

skinnee has tested the TFC, PA, MCR, XSPC and GTX, check out skinnee labs.

2) It seems some people like the DDC's over the D5's. Which one strictly performs better? The D5 has better GPH of course, but I've read it depends on your loop. This might be a redundant question, I'll try the search feature.

It depends on your loop, but the DDC3.2 with an after-market top usually comes out on top. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the better choice, because the difference is usually so small it means no measurable difference in temperature. It's better to look at the other features of those two pumps when making a decision. (and yes, you really should have used to search function for this one )

[shazza]

Oops ... didn't see where you mentioned the Classified in your first post. That's a good choice - lots of water blocks available.

About pumps ... you can search til the cows come home, and I doubt you will find a definitive answer about whether the D5 or DDC 3.2 is best. As stated previously, I'd just pick the one that will fit in your system best. I prefer the 3.2s because they are smaller, although am using a D5 on the T3 and it's good too. Chances are, you won't see any performance difference with the pumps. Your biggest question will be one loop/one pump or two loops/two pumps (and yes, you can do two pumps in a single loop, but seems to me you'd be better off with two loops if that's the way you go). It really is a matter of preference.

About radiators ... you're right, testing of the Feser rads is sparse. What you can do is compare performance to a radiator that is used in both tests - not perfect by any means, but gives you an idea. From all the reading I've done, I just don't think there is a significant difference in performance between the Thermochill, XSPC RX, Feser X-Change, and possibly the new HWLabs SR1 (too new for much data to be out). These are thicker rads, better for lower speed (noise) fans, but they also do quite well with higher fans. People tend to gloss over the Swiftech MCR320s, but you get a lot of rad for the cost. The Black Ice GTX is also apparently a good performer with higher CFM fans. Again, personal preference. I like the flexibility to use low speed fans, so would go with the first grouping. Just buy the one you like the best, and the one you can find in stock.

It's easy to get sideways at first thinking there is ONE BEST product for each area of water cooling. But, that's not always the case - depends on your exact setup and needs. You won't go wrong using any of the products you've been researching. What I can say with confidence is, if you really get into this hobby, you'll ultimately end up with at least one of everything anyway

[alacheesu]

It's easy to get sideways at first thinking there is ONE BEST product for each area of water cooling. But, that's not always the case - depends on your exact setup and needs.

Best advice I've read all day.

[millertime359]

What I can say with confidence is, if you really get into this hobby, you'll ultimately end up with at least one of everything anyway

I was trying to find the BP bot, but forgot what buildlog it was in.

[skinnee]

Shazza has this stuff on lock... excellent advice from a member I have a tremendous amount of respect for. Nothing to add, shazza already took care of everything. I have to quote this paragraph though... dead on.

It's easy to get sideways at first thinking there is ONE BEST product for each area of water cooling. But, that's not always the case - depends on your exact setup and needs. You won't go wrong using any of the products you've been researching. What I can say with confidence is, if you really get into this hobby, you'll ultimately end up with at least one of everything anyway

shazza!

[millertime359]

Shazza has this stuff on lock... excellent advice from a member I have a tremendous amount of respect for. Nothing to add, shazza already took care of everything. I have to quote this paragraph though... dead on.


shazza!

Hey, who let skinnee out of the lab.

and +1 on that. Certain things you will find are personally preference it seems.

[Armitage]

Well my world revolves computers. I work on hardware everyday, and Have been in the whole thing for almost 10 years (I'm 20).

Watercooling hasn't looked this good until now. 2-3 years ago, you definitely didn't have the looks you do now, which is partially what I'm going for.

Thanks for the advice. Biggest reason I picked the feser was from what I have read. It also seems to be the pick that most top end work logs I see. not all of course =]

[millertime359]

If you want some nice looking rads that seem to perform pretty well, I would check out those new HW Labs SR1s. The few people that got their hands on them so far were extremely impressed with the fit and finish on those.

[Armitage]

Well I just read Martin's review:

http://martinsliquidlab.i4memory.com...80-Review.html

It obviously beats the Thermochill and HWlabs. But the SR1s Obviously are not in there. I'll check them out =]

[shazza]

I don't think Martin did a direct comparison of the Thermochill in that review, as I believe it was only available in a triple at that time...

[alacheesu]

It obviously beats the Thermochill and HWlabs. But the SR1s Obviously are not in there. I'll check them out =]

He's comparing the QUAD feser radiator against the TRIPLE Thermochill radiator. Also, the GTX beats the Feser with 2000rpm and 3000rpm fans.

Also, these damn animals keep beating me to every post.

[millertime359]

Well I just read Martin's review:

http://martinsliquidlab.i4memory.com...80-Review.html

It obviously beats the Thermochill and HWlabs. But the SR1s Obviously are not in there. I'll check them out =]

Well actually you can't say that it beats the HW Labs GTX480 outright. You see from that test that the Feser is designed to be better with low-med RPM fans where the GTX480 loves some high speed fans.

If you are going to run dual loops, then the pressure drop won't be a big factor for you. If you were trying one big loop, you would need to pay attention to it as the higher restriction will effect your temps past a certain point.