OCZ announces Vertex Turbo SSD series

**XS_Rich** · 07-09-2009, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Shintai

Another problem is alligning partitions and selecting another than default allocation size cant be done without a running Windows OS. In short, you need to conf and setup the drive in Windows before you install Windows on it.

Errr, not according to the 30s browse I took on OCZs forum. I thought you could just use the Windows install disc (or even download the recovery disc) and do the whole diskpart thing at the command prompt? Or am I confusing things here? (wouldn't be the first time

)

**Shintai** · 07-09-2009, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by RazzleUltra

Errr, not according to the 30s browse I took on OCZs forum. I thought you could just use the Windows install disc (or even download the recovery disc) and do the whole diskpart thing at the command prompt? Or am I confusing things here? (wouldn't be the first time

)

You mean this?

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=55238

Or do you mean the repair option in Vista/Win7?

**Zaskar** · 07-09-2009, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by Shintai

Another problem is alligning partitions and selecting another than default allocation size cant be done without a running Windows OS. In short, you need to conf and setup the drive in Windows before you install Windows on it.

Not to talk about all the registry edits and disabling of anything from hibernation and pagefiles to services while disabling prefetchers, change cache sizes, disable certain NTFS naming features, running 3rd party advanced defrag utility (no its not TRIM) etc to get a working product. For me this aint tweaking and performance tuning. Its hotfixing.

I think the aligning thing is a non issue with Vista and up, but the rest still have to be manually done, and then back to the raid thing again, even with windows 7 if using a raid array it cant tell that your using SSD's and you gotta do all the tweaks manually (now that I think about it, im not even positive about the aligning with a raid since it doesnt know its a SSD there either)

Its new Technology and I am fully aware if the limitations, but the limitations with raid shouldn't be dismissed, since if your int he market for high end SSD's or WD Raptor drives, there is a good chance your also going to be using raid, so the limitations with that setup shouldn't be dismissed because there is work arounds for the lower performance single setup.

**RyderOCZ** · 07-09-2009, 06:22 AM

You guys are confusing recommendations with requirements. Also.. change the default allocation size? Where did you pick that up?

I have 2 vertexs running here on Win 7. Disabled nothing but the Auto Defrag.

All the posts about prefetcher, etc etc etc are for the older Gen drives. Can you point me to where we tell everyone that they MUST do this or that on their Vertex drives or they will not work right?

Stop spreading fud about the Vertex drives please, they work just fine without disabling 10 services, etc.

BTW.. alignment of the partition on XP, even improves performance slightly on a rotational hard drive, so I don't see the harm in recommending that at all. Try it on your "other" hard drive.. performance just might go up.

**XS_Rich** · 07-09-2009, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by Shintai

You mean this?

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=55238

Or do you mean the repair option in Vista/Win7?

I meant this:

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=53756

(so yes, the 'repair' then 'command-prompt' method)

This seems simpler to me, as if you were installing Vista/Win7 you'd have the setup disc, and it's just a single extra step.

EDIT: Did some replies below mine just disappear?

**Shintai** · 07-09-2009, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by RazzleUltra

I meant this:

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=53756

(so yes, the 'repair' then 'command-prompt' method)

This seems simpler to me, as if you were installing Vista/Win7 you'd have the setup disc, and it's just a single extra step.

But what about RAID? And why do I have to do it? I dont have to do such things on a Samsung or Intel SSD.

**XS_Rich** · 07-09-2009, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Shintai

But what about RAID? And why do I have to do it? I dont have to do such things on a Samsung or Intel SSD.

I've no idea about RAID.

Am I right in thinking that this doesn't need doing under Win7?

If so, isn't this just a case of needing a newer OS to take advantage / automatically deal with newer hardware?

Yes Intel & Samsung do it automatically, but they also carry quite a price premium. I'd be hard pressed to justify paying the extra to avoid having to diskpart the drive first.

**Shintai** · 07-09-2009, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by RazzleUltra

I've no idea about RAID.

Am I right in thinking that this doesn't need doing under Win7?

If so, isn't this just a case of needing a newer OS to take advantage / automatically deal with newer hardware?

Yes Intel & Samsung do it automatically, but they also carry quite a price premium. I'd be hard pressed to justify paying the extra to avoid having to diskpart the drive first.

Its the same for any OS. The only thing Win7 adds is TRIM basicly. Besides disabling scheduled defrag for SSDs.

**XS_Rich** · 07-09-2009, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by Shintai

Its the same for any OS. The only thing Win7 adds is TRIM basicly. Besides disabling scheduled defrag for SSDs.

I'd probably best bow out as I'm clearly just playing catch-up with everyone else

On a personal note though, the necessity (or lack of) to align it first isn't going to put me off when I come round to upgrading to an SSD.

**naokaji** · 07-09-2009, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Shintai

But what about RAID? And why do I have to do it? I dont have to do such things on a Samsung or Intel SSD.

You don't have to do it in OCZ ones either...

Just because Samsung and Intel don't have forums where they post tweaks for how you can get some free extra performance makes ocz inferior?
I just can't agree with that, besides, if you go to the ocz forums and look at the tweaks, most of them are just for Win Xp anyway.
And you can't blame ocz if raid controllers are not designed for SSDs.

**One_Hertz** · 07-09-2009, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by RyderOCZ

BTW.. alignment of the partition on XP, even improves performance slightly on a rotational hard drive

No it doesn't.

**Zaskar** · 07-09-2009, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by naokaji

And you can't blame ocz if raid controllers are not designed for SSDs.

No you cant, but you also cant dismiss the fact that TRIM doesn't work at all currently on RAID(and isn't even known if current motherboards or raid controllers will even be able to at all, depends if its firmware or driver support that's needed) and RAID is what the high end systems use for extra performance.

So when making a product for the enthusiast, you cant dismiss how it performs in the kinds of setups most of them will be using them in. Saying that TRIM wasn't used in the comparison to a normal HD is all fine and good, but for most of us looking to see how they will perform in a high end setup (RAID) this is the kind of thing we need to see, since the fact that you can use TRIM in lower end single drive setups is irrelevant to us.

**naokaji** · 07-09-2009, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by Zaskar

No you cant, but you also cant dismiss the fact that TRIM doesn't work at all currently on RAID(and isn't even known if current motherboards or raid controllers will even be able to at all, depends if its firmware or driver support that's needed) and RAID is what the high end systems use for extra performance.

You are right that the lack of TRIM when using raid is a problem, but my post was aimed at Shintai who tried to spin it into a argument against OCZ while forgetting that most other SSD manufacturers don't even give you TRIM on single drives.

**Utnorris** · 07-09-2009, 08:25 AM

So which is better, use a single 60Gb drive for the OS or go with 2 x 30Gb drives in a RAID 0? I know with RAID you lose the capability of TRIM, but how necessary is that? I know Hardforum did a RAID scaling on W7 just recently and it looked like it is worth doing RAID, even if you do lose the capability of TRIM. Can't you just Clone the RAID array over to another drive, TRIM them and put the Clone back on?

**Shintai** · 07-09-2009, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Utnorris

So which is better, use a single 60Gb drive for the OS or go with 2 x 30Gb drives in a RAID 0? I know with RAID you lose the capability of TRIM, but how necessary is that? I know Hardforum did a RAID scaling on W7 just recently and it looked like it is worth doing RAID, even if you do lose the capability of TRIM. Can't you just Clone the RAID array over to another drive, TRIM them and put the Clone back on?

That makes no sense. You wouldnt need TRIM there since you could simply erase the drives. TRIM is essentially not needed at all. Its a minor enhancement. It marks the blocks for erase each time you delete a file etc. So to use it you would need it running always.

**~~Baron_Davis~~** · 07-09-2009, 09:10 AM

Friendos...question

From what I read the OCZ Summit has some sort of auto TRIM when the drives are in idle for a while, so would that mean that a RAID 0 array with Summits could theoretically stay fresh and not degrade?

**Tony** · 07-09-2009, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by One_Hertz

No it doesn't.

can do and does massively in raid.

unaligned extra IO used.

**Tony** · 07-09-2009, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Baron_Davis

Friendos...question

From what I read the OCZ Summit has some sort of auto TRIM when the drives are in idle for a while, so would that mean that a RAID 0 array with Summits could theoretically stay fresh and not degrade?

Idle time garbage collection, FW18C and 1901, anything prior does not have it.
Also
vertex FW 1.3 has it
Agility FW 1.3 has it
EX FW 1.20 has it

this only restores drives to 80% tops, TRIM brings them to 95%.

So listening to shintai you will be losing 15% performance for nothing

**sonofander** · 07-09-2009, 12:13 PM

Will win 7 properly allign a SSD if it is a non-member raid on ICH10?

**ExodusC** · 07-09-2009, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by sonofander

Will win 7 properly allign a SSD if it is a non-member raid on ICH10?

Yes, it should do so just fine. Windows 7 queries the drive for rotational speed, SSDs will report back 0, and Windows 7 will flag it as a SSD and enable the tweaks needed (disable defrag, align partition properly, etc).

**sonofander** · 07-09-2009, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by ExodusC

Yes, it should do so just fine. Windows 7 queries the drive for rotational speed, SSDs will report back 0, and Windows 7 will flag it as a SSD and enable the tweaks needed (disable defrag, align partition properly, etc).

I just did a win7 install on my vertex as a nonmember raid and defrag was not disabled by default. I think it sees the ICH10 and not the drive when the mobo is set to raid

here comes a re-install

**Praz** · 07-09-2009, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by sonofander

I just did a win7 install on my vertex as a nonmember raid and defrag was not disabled by default. I think it sees the ICH10 and not the drive when the mobo is set to raid

here comes a re-install

Why would you reinstall. The alignment is going to be correct regardless.

**sonofander** · 07-09-2009, 01:09 PM

Are you sure? Seems that win7 wasn't able to identify my drive as an SSD...

**ExodusC** · 07-09-2009, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by sonofander

I just did a win7 install on my vertex as a nonmember raid and defrag was not disabled by default. I think it sees the ICH10 and not the drive when the mobo is set to raid

here comes a re-install

Do you have any hard drives in the system? Windows 7 may have enabled defrag to defragment those hard drives, if so. I've not installed using a SSD as a non-member when in a RAID system.

Originally Posted by Praz

Why would you reinstall. The alignment is going to be correct regardless.

This. Have you used a tool to check your alignment? There is information on the OCZ forums on how to do so. Windows 7 should have aligned it properly.

**sonofander** · 07-09-2009, 01:17 PM

Tool link?

I have my ICH10 set to raid with 2 vraps in raid 0 for working storage and my vertex as my os/apps drive.

Thread: OCZ announces Vertex Turbo SSD series

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