Can anyone rate the primochill Typhoon III?

[Vapor]

I see, I kind of figured it wasn't worth the time or else there would be alot more info about it. So the only advantage would be essentially removing the restrictive rad from the loop...

Does the typhoon achieve this running two loops one to rad and one through the blocks seperate flow rates through each loop?

The Typhoon III is ideal for complex and restrictive loops (CPU, GPU, board, multiple rads all in one). For a simple CPU loop, it's not going to help at all (and such a simple loop usually gets high flowrates anyway).

The best way to use a Typhoon III is to take a restrictive loop and splitting it into two less restrictive subloops, with the flow-loving components being in an equally or less restrictive subloop compared to the other subloop.

Edit: I wouldn't think it would work but the whole efficiency discussion is whats confusing me.

Yeah, this is a really abstract concept and something that's probably best shown with actual numbers (I'll get to doing that maybe tonight). But let's say you have a loop that runs at 1GPM in a serial config off a D5. At 1GPM with a D5, the pressure drop of the loop will be roughly 4.5psi. That comes out to just under 2W of pumping power.

If you split the loop perfectly evenly, you'll get roughly half that pressure drop. At that pressure drop, the D5 runs at 3.25GPM, meaning ~1.6GPM per loop. Of course that is too high (it ignores equilibrium), but if you do have it in an equilibrium situation, you'll get roughly 1.3GPM per loop, or 2.6GPM through the pump. At 2.6GPM and 3.25PSI of pressure drop, that's just over 3.5W of pumping power.

The jump from 2W to 3.5W of pumping power is why this works (and that's the efficiency thing....efficiency = pumping power / power consumed). If the pumping power were untouched, you'd get identical flow per subloop, but because the pump runs so much more efficiently between 2.5GPM and 3GPM than it does at 1GPM (meaning it is more powerful from the perspective of the water), it translates into more actual flow through the pump than the 'expected' 2GPM, resulting in an increase in flow through the subloops.

[Darth_Penguin]

Well cars have thermostats to regulate flow of water through engine seperate from the radiator so it might not be so cut and dry. Has anyone ever actually tried it?

A thermostat is used to help warm the engine up to operating temperature faster to reduce wear, NOT to aide in cooling. Engine tolerances are built around a constant temperature and the thermostat help to achieve that. Thermostats actually detract from an cooling systems ability to cool.

[bluehaze]

Yeah, this is a really abstract concept and something that's probably best shown with actual numbers (I'll get to doing that maybe tonight). But let's say you have a loop that runs at 1GPM in a serial config off a D5. At 1GPM with a D5, the pressure drop of the loop will be roughly 4.5psi. That comes out to just under 2W of pumping power.

If you split the loop perfectly evenly, you'll get roughly half that pressure drop. At that pressure drop, the D5 runs at 3.25GPM, meaning ~1.6GPM per loop. Of course that is too high (it ignores equilibrium), but if you do have it in an equilibrium situation, you'll get roughly 1.3GPM per loop, or 2.6GPM through the pump. At 2.6GPM and 3.25PSI of pressure drop, that's just over 3.5W of pumping power.

The jump from 2W to 3.5W of pumping power is why this works (and that's the efficiency thing....efficiency = pumping power / power consumed). If the pumping power were untouched, you'd get identical flow per subloop, but because the pump runs so much more efficiently between 2.5GPM and 3GPM than it does at 1GPM (meaning it is more powerful from the perspective of the water), it translates into more actual flow through the pump than the 'expected' 2GPM, resulting in an increase in flow through the subloops.

OK I got it now... I think heh, It's more about increasing the flow due to the efficiency of the pump the flow increases through both loops not so much about tuning each loops flow individually? You still have to have equilibrium amongst the loops for this to work then?

At least I think that's what your saying. If i'm still not getting it i'm sure I will eventually, looking forward to You and Skinnee's testing.

Thanks

[bluehaze]

A thermostat is used to help warm the engine up to operating temperature faster to reduce wear, NOT to aide in cooling. Engine tolerances are built around a constant temperature and the thermostat help to achieve that. Thermostats actually detract from an cooling systems ability to cool.

Ever take the thermostat out of your engine? We used to take them out back in my race car days thinking it would lower temps, However it actually raised temps. They make restrictor plates to replace the thermostat with so you can "tune" the amount of water flowing through the engine because just removing the thermostat in many cases would cause the engines to overheat.

[Darth_Penguin]

Ever take the thermostat out of your engine? We used to take them out back in my race car days thinking it would lower temps, However it actually raised temps. They make restrictor plates to replace the thermostat with so you can "tune" the amount of water flowing through the engine because just removing the thermostat in many cases would cause the engines to overheat.

It may be different with race engines but I can tell you with non race engines that on 2 separate occasions I have had the opportunity to run a car with no thermostat and in both situations the car failed to ever get to operating temperature.

[millertime359]

A thermostat is used to help warm the engine up to operating temperature faster to reduce wear, NOT to aide in cooling. Engine tolerances are built around a constant temperature and the thermostat help to achieve that. Thermostats actually detract from an cooling systems ability to cool.

+1

The thermostat is there to keep coolant from getting to the rad from the block. That is the reason why they are set at specific temps. it is all designed around keeping your car at a certain temp.

Ever take the thermostat out of your engine? We used to take them out back in my race car days thinking it would lower temps, However it actually raised temps. They make restrictor plates to replace the thermostat with so you can "tune" the amount of water flowing through the engine because just removing the thermostat in many cases would cause the engines to overheat.

Race engine is different. They are tuned for the most power you can get. You also tend to run them wide open. This will produce more heat.

[millertime359]

Will all this talk over running seprate loops off of this, could you have a loop that is rad only and a loop with your CPU and GPU blocks only. I wouldn't think it would work, but the T3 isn't your standard res will it allow you to do that?

[hellcamino]

It may be different with race engines but I can tell you with non race engines that on 2 separate occasions I have had the opportunity to run a car with no thermostat and in both situations the car failed to ever get to operating temperature.

I know what you are saying and yes the water will stay cold but the real tell is when you check your egt or oil temp and find out that they are skyrocketing. There is such a thing as too much flow.

[Aielman]

Fillports front and center is putting me off somewhat. I imagine you would have to tilt your case back 90deg to fill and bleed. That said it does look handy and sounds like it has performance to match. Where can I buy one? Seems like it's only available on Primochill's site.

No...you can get it a few other places. Moddersmart has it...I got the two I have from them.

[Capt Proton]

Will all this talk over running seprate loops off of this, could you have a loop that is rad only and a loop with your CPU and GPU blocks only. I wouldn't think it would work, but the T3 isn't your standard res will it allow you to do that?

Can't see this being successful. You would be relying on the warmer wtaer from the CPU loop mixing with the water from the rad loop completely and all getting cooled by the rad equally. I would think that there would be some migration, however, I also think it would not mix completely, and there would be one flow through the res that is mainly the CPU loop water, and another that would be mainly the Rad loop water. I would think it would depend on how much agitation of the water in the res there is. Enough agitation to keep the water mixed would equal a lot of water noise.

[Darth_Penguin]

I know what you are saying and yes the water will stay cold but the real tell is when you check your egt or oil temp and find out that they are skyrocketing. There is such a thing as too much flow.

Of course there is, I was just trying to point out the actual function of a thermostat which is to set a minimum temperature and aid in warm up. Since automotive water pumps are mechanical and vary based on RPM there needs to be something to restrict the flow to a level where it is actually being effective. It just happens that they build the restrictor into the thermostat.

[bluehaze]

Of course there is, I was just trying to point out the actual function of a thermostat which is to set a minimum temperature and aid in warm up. Since automotive water pumps are mechanical and vary based on RPM there needs to be something to restrict the flow to a level where it is actually being effective. It just happens that they build the restrictor into the thermostat.

The point was and still is, Thermostats are used to regulate flow.

Here from the Wiki:

A thermostat is a device for regulating the temperature of a system so that the system's temperature is maintained near a desired setpoint temperature. The thermostat does this by switching heating or cooling devices on or off or regulating the flow of a heat transfer fluid as needed to maintain the correct temperature.


Can we get back on topic now please?

[Aielman]

Post some pictures of your setup man. I honestly get a huge kick out of seeing how people use and mod this stuff.

I mounted mine at the top of an MM 1203 front.



The plan is to use the one on the left for the chipset and CPU and the right for the GPUs. Gotta save some ducats first though.

the term fatboy is very offensive I prefer 'economy-sized male' or 'horizontally challenged'.

Oh come now...surely you could be mistaken...

[millertime359]

Can't see this being successful. You would be relying on the warmer wtaer from the CPU loop mixing with the water from the rad loop completely and all getting cooled by the rad equally. I would think that there would be some migration, however, I also think it would not mix completely, and there would be one flow through the res that is mainly the CPU loop water, and another that would be mainly the Rad loop water. I would think it would depend on how much agitation of the water in the res there is. Enough agitation to keep the water mixed would equal a lot of water noise.

Yea, I wouldn't think it would work either. You would basically be turning the res into the rad. I would be interesting to hear from BoxGods if he took that into consideration during the design of this thing.

[millertime359]

Oh come now...surely you could be mistaken...

[Aielman]

Exactly right.

[surfhick]

There are actually small acrylic washers that go on the rubber mounting washers just to spread out the load.

There are also acrylic SPACERS that are included for the 8 poly carbonate compression fittings that come with the T3. The T3 uses a cavity (for want of a better word) to retain the O ring so it doesn't spread out under compression. The poly compression fittings fit that cavity so no spacer needed for T3 mounting (or on any other part with the O ring captivation on the part) but if users want to mount the compression fittings in any parts that don't have the cavity, the spacer slips right on and your good to go.

As for the front fill ports. They are designed that way for several reasons. The goal was for the easiest to install, fill, bleed, and drain system I could come up with. It had to be that for as many different set ups as possible, and for users from novice to uber. With those ports on the front, with the over flow basins to prevent accidents, with two ports so one fills while the other expels trapped air, and the concave inner face you get ease of use no rez with top mounted fill ports can touch.

Post some pictures of your setup man. I honestly get a huge kick out of seeing how people use and mod this stuff.

Thank you. I was using the washers in this manner. I just wasn't sure. I didn't even see the ones on the fittings until I read your post. To retain the o-rings in their seats. I'm trying my first case modding and watercooling at the same time. I started out just painting the case. Looking at it, though, I couldn't help but notice how a radiator would fit underneath the top. When researching parts, I liked how I could mount amy pump right to the back of the Typhoon. I think this will make for a cleaner looking loop. You have to look pretty hard to even see the pump. The reservoir with its LEDs will be the only place my water has any color to it. I plan to line the hoses with primochill's yellow anti kink coils. I just need some clamps and elbow fittings to arrive before I finish. My radiator is a swiftech 320 and the top fans will be the Enermax ones with the orange blades. I was afraid of having too many LEDs.

[

[Oberon]

Yea, I wouldn't think it would work either. You would basically be turning the res into the rad. I would be interesting to hear from BoxGods if he took that into consideration during the design of this thing.

The temperature of the water everywhere in the loop will be roughly the same (yay for steady state!), so it wouldn't matter if you had the rad and block on different loops.

[eth0s]

OK I got it now... I think heh, It's more about increasing the flow due to the efficiency of the pump the flow increases through both loops not so much about tuning each loops flow individually? You still have to have equilibrium amongst the loops for this to work then?

At least I think that's what your saying. If i'm still not getting it i'm sure I will eventually, looking forward to You and Skinnee's testing.

Thanks

The increased efficiency of the pump is a result of the changes to the total system characteristics. The change in efficiency is not "causing" anything to happen. Improved efficiency is a result, not a cause.

You were right to question the changes in dynamic pressure between the two loops (which you referred to as "flow"), since there is no pressure control valve. I kept looking for one, until i realized why this is such an ingeniously simple design for increasing flow. If this was planned, it is quite a feat of practical engineering. If by accident, then it is still a great design.

Here is what makes it an ingenious design, IMO: the key to the design is having the water from the two loops mix in the reservoir. The Reservoir is not acting like a radiator, it is acting like a pressure control valve. It equalizes the dynamic pressure of each loop before entering the pump. So it really doesn't matter if you load up one loop with 3 blocks and 2 radiators and have only 1 radiator on the other loop. The dynamic pressure (velocity) will be equalized in the reservoir. Now what this does is essentially double the size of the pipe (tubing) you are using. This is how the Typhoon 3 achieves higher flow, by essentially increasing the size of the tubing. To the pump, it still looks like one giant loop, just with a much bigger tube. The change in this pumping constraint shifts the pumping curve outward to the right, which gives you a new equilibrium point with higher flow overall. (I wish my photoshop skillz weren't so poor, so I could show you a pumping curve v. system curve graph, and illustrate what I mean. You will just have to draw one in your mind.) Remember without changing the size or speed of the impeller, the total head pressure of the Laing D5 pump will be the same, all that is changing is the system constraint, i.e., the total pressure drop has been decreased by effectively using a bigger pipe. The same thing would happen if you switched to 1" ID tubing (actually that would be an even bigger improvement). However, if you were to use double or triple the length of tubing in your two loops, as you did in the single loop, you would eventually cancel out the gains from the two parallel loops, by offsetting the gain of splitting the loop with higher pressure loss due to friction in the tubes. So make sure you use to two short loops to replace one long loop, for maximum benefit.

As for temperature, the system temp will eventually come to an equilibrium point since the water is mixing in the reservoir. Will this result in overall better temps for cpu and gpu? I don't know, it depends on the flow rate you get in each loop. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. But you will definitely get higher flow rates THROUGH THE PUMP with dual loops over a single loop, even though you still have the same head pressure. And it is the higher flow rate through the pump that increases the pumps overall efficiency (although it might decrease the pump's volumetric efficiency, since volume flow leakage would increase -- but, I'm not sure.)

Final Point: a car's radiator is designed to keep the car's engine operating in a specific temperature range. It is not supposed to get too hot, and not supposed to get too cold. Hence the use of a thermostat in the car's radiator. But in our computers, we want to get the temps as low as possible and as close to the ambient air temperature as possibe (or below if you use more exotic cooling). We can never be "too cold", so your analogy is inapposite.

[eth0s]

I just read my post, and I didn't really explain the gain in efficiency. Efficiency is essentially the gain in work output for the amount of energy input. Here, the Typhoon 3 with dual loops in parallel is more "efficient" than a regular Laing D5 in a single loop, since it pumps more gallons per minute using the same amount of energy. So what does that mean? Are you a hero for the environment? Not really, you are not cutting greenhouse gas emissions, or reducing your "carbon footprint", since you are using the same amount of electricity as before, but you are "wasting" less of it than before. So in a sense you can pat yourself on the back for being a good citizen of the Earth, because you have become a more "efficient" energy hog.

[Darth_Penguin]

The point was and still is, Thermostats are used to regulate flow.

Here from the Wiki:

A thermostat is a device for regulating the temperature of a system so that the system's temperature is maintained near a desired setpoint temperature. The thermostat does this by switching heating or cooling devices on or off or regulating the flow of a heat transfer fluid as needed to maintain the correct temperature.


Can we get back on topic now please?

You keep missing the point. Can we agree that a thermostat is designed to raise the temperature and hold it at a desired range? If you can agree to this then you should be able to agree to the fact that a thermostat is NOT maximizing the cooling efficiency of the system, which is what we are after with water cooling out computers. This is the point I have been trying to make to you the whole time.

And why aren't we on topic? you did bring up thermostats didn't you?

[BoxGods]

Thank you. I was using the washers in this manner. I just wasn't sure. I didn't even see the ones on the fittings until I read your post. To retain the o-rings in their seats. I'm trying my first case modding and watercooling at the same time. I started out just painting the case. Looking at it, though, I couldn't help but notice how a radiator would fit underneath the top. When researching parts, I liked how I could mount amy pump right to the back of the Typhoon. I think this will make for a cleaner looking loop. You have to look pretty hard to even see the pump. The reservoir with its LEDs will be the only place my water has any color to it. I plan to line the hoses with primochill's yellow anti kink coils. I just need some clamps and elbow fittings to arrive before I finish. My radiator is a swiftech 320 and the top fans will be the Enermax ones with the orange blades. I was afraid of having too many LEDs.

[

I know lots of companies claim they are real gamers or real modders...I have several hundred mods under my belt though so when I Drew up the T3 it was first and foremost a part for case modders. I could have reversed the pump side with the fitting side for example but that would have made the tubing too far back into the case and the pump (and it's power wire) right in your face. Obviously I didn't ignore performance, but performance is also about how something makes you feel too. Look at the bike above. If you can stare at that and NOT think of a beautiful woman...then you likely ARE a woman lol.

I am so glad your enjoying your T3's and thank you for the pictures.

Edit: The acrylic fitting spacers are ONLY needed if your using the fittings in a part that does NOT have the recess for the O ring built in. The T3 DOES have the recess so you do NOT need to use the spacer with it.

[bluehaze]

You keep missing the point. Can we agree that a thermostat is designed to raise the temperature and hold it at a desired range? If you can agree to this then you should be able to agree to the fact that a thermostat is NOT maximizing the cooling efficiency of the system, which is what we are after with water cooling out computers. This is the point I have been trying to make to you the whole time.

And why aren't we on topic? you did bring up thermostats didn't you?

I'm not missing the point LOL I'm the one that was making the point remember? The point was thermostats are used to regulate flow in the automotive industry and via regulating that flow are able to increase or decrease temperatures. Doesn't matter how or why the thermostat works...the point is altering the flow changes the temperatures as you yourself are admitting by trying to explain it to me

Perhaps the same premise is not noticeable with watercooling a computer because the temps are miniscule by comparison but the point remains the same if regulating flow rate through a car radiator changes temps then same can be said for regulating flow through a computer radiator albeit evidently on a much more miniscule scale. <- And that was the answer to the question I was asking, it's not worth it because adjusting flow rates is not going to make much if any difference be it increasing or decreasing flow.

Thanks

[BoxGods]

The increased efficiency of the pump is a result of the changes to the total system characteristics. The change in efficiency is not "causing" anything to happen. Improved efficiency is a result, not a cause.

You were right to question the changes in dynamic pressure between the two loops (which you referred to as "flow"), since there is no pressure control valve. I kept looking for one, until i realized why this is such an ingeniously simple design for increasing flow. If this was planned, it is quite a feat of practical engineering. If by accident, then it is still a great design.

Here is what makes it an ingenious design, IMO: the key to the design is having the water from the two loops mix in the reservoir. The Reservoir is not acting like a radiator, it is acting like a pressure control valve. It equalizes the dynamic pressure of each loop before entering the pump. So it really doesn't matter if you load up one loop with 3 blocks and 2 radiators and have only 1 radiator on the other loop. The dynamic pressure (velocity) will be equalized in the reservoir. Now what this does is essentially double the size of the pipe (tubing) you are using. This is how the Typhoon 3 achieves higher flow, by essentially increasing the size of the tubing. To the pump, it still looks like one giant loop, just with a much bigger tube. The change in this pumping constraint shifts the pumping curve outward to the right, which gives you a new equilibrium point with higher flow overall. (I wish my photoshop skillz weren't so poor, so I could show you a pumping curve v. system curve graph, and illustrate what I mean. You will just have to draw one in your mind.) Remember without changing the size or speed of the impeller, the total head pressure of the Laing D5 pump will be the same, all that is changing is the system constraint, i.e., the total pressure drop has been decreased by effectively using a bigger pipe. The same thing would happen if you switched to 1" ID tubing (actually that would be an even bigger improvement). However, if you were to use double or triple the length of tubing in your two loops, as you did in the single loop, you would eventually cancel out the gains from the two parallel loops, by offsetting the gain of splitting the loop with higher pressure loss due to friction in the tubes. So make sure you use to two short loops to replace one long loop, for maximum benefit.

As for temperature, the system temp will eventually come to an equilibrium point since the water is mixing in the reservoir. Will this result in overall better temps for cpu and gpu? I don't know, it depends on the flow rate you get in each loop. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. But you will definitely get higher flow rates THROUGH THE PUMP with dual loops over a single loop, even though you still have the same head pressure. And it is the higher flow rate through the pump that increases the pumps overall efficiency (although it might decrease the pump's volumetric efficiency, since volume flow leakage would increase -- but, I'm not sure.)

Final Point: a car's radiator is designed to keep the car's engine operating in a specific temperature range. It is not supposed to get too hot, and not supposed to get too cold. Hence the use of a thermostat in the car's radiator. But in our computers, we want to get the temps as low as possible and as close to the ambient air temperature as possibe (or below if you use more exotic cooling). We can never be "too cold", so your analogy is inapposite.

Your correct about the design acting a lot like a regulator. That's why the name says "Typhoon III with PEC Technology". The PEC stands for pump expansion chamber which sums up what the T3 does in a mechanical sense. The goal is to get that equalization across as much of the curve that we use for water cooling as possible.

[bluehaze]

The increased efficiency of the pump is a result of the changes to the total system characteristics. The change in efficiency is not "causing" anything to happen. Improved efficiency is a result, not a cause.

You were right to question the changes in dynamic pressure between the two loops (which you referred to as "flow"), since there is no pressure control valve. I kept looking for one, until i realized why this is such an ingeniously simple design for increasing flow. If this was planned, it is quite a feat of practical engineering. If by accident, then it is still a great design.

Here is what makes it an ingenious design, IMO: the key to the design is having the water from the two loops mix in the reservoir. The Reservoir is not acting like a radiator, it is acting like a pressure control valve. It equalizes the dynamic pressure of each loop before entering the pump. So it really doesn't matter if you load up one loop with 3 blocks and 2 radiators and have only 1 radiator on the other loop. The dynamic pressure (velocity) will be equalized in the reservoir. Now what this does is essentially double the size of the pipe (tubing) you are using. This is how the Typhoon 3 achieves higher flow, by essentially increasing the size of the tubing. To the pump, it still looks like one giant loop, just with a much bigger tube. The change in this pumping constraint shifts the pumping curve outward to the right, which gives you a new equilibrium point with higher flow overall. (I wish my photoshop skillz weren't so poor, so I could show you a pumping curve v. system curve graph, and illustrate what I mean. You will just have to draw one in your mind.) Remember without changing the size or speed of the impeller, the total head pressure of the Laing D5 pump will be the same, all that is changing is the system constraint, i.e., the total pressure drop has been decreased by effectively using a bigger pipe. The same thing would happen if you switched to 1" ID tubing (actually that would be an even bigger improvement). However, if you were to use double or triple the length of tubing in your two loops, as you did in the single loop, you would eventually cancel out the gains from the two parallel loops, by offsetting the gain of splitting the loop with higher pressure loss due to friction in the tubes. So make sure you use to two short loops to replace one long loop, for maximum benefit.

As for temperature, the system temp will eventually come to an equilibrium point since the water is mixing in the reservoir. Will this result in overall better temps for cpu and gpu? I don't know, it depends on the flow rate you get in each loop. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. But you will definitely get higher flow rates THROUGH THE PUMP with dual loops over a single loop, even though you still have the same head pressure. And it is the higher flow rate through the pump that increases the pumps overall efficiency (although it might decrease the pump's volumetric efficiency, since volume flow leakage would increase -- but, I'm not sure.)

Final Point: a car's radiator is designed to keep the car's engine operating in a specific temperature range. It is not supposed to get too hot, and not supposed to get too cold. Hence the use of a thermostat in the car's radiator. But in our computers, we want to get the temps as low as possible and as close to the ambient air temperature as possibe (or below if you use more exotic cooling). We can never be "too cold", so your analogy is inapposite.

I understand how it works now, I was confused due to the efficiency discussion I was thinking that for some reason they were able to achieve seperate flow rates on each loop due to the design of the res but it is actually just due to the efficiency of the pump and the flow is increasing on both the loops.

The point about the car was as stated above temps change due to being regulated through a thermostat so the same can be said for a computer radiator. Problem is as Sniipe said it's still a closed loop so changing flow through rad means your also changing flow through the blocks. It's not possible to have seperate flow rates best I can tell while still sharing the same res in a closed loop system. So I imagine noone truly knows what effect flow rates would have on a rad alone as it's impossible to have seperate flow rates for rad and blocks.

Hope I explained it now...Vapor understood what I was trying to figure out and he already answered everything up top.

Thanks