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Thread: AC to plateHX Chiller Conversion...56K Warning!

  1. #101
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    Ok, did some charging over the last 8 hrs. Here's some numbers:

    Ambient temp: 81-83F

    Low side: 22.5 psi / -2F
    High side: 179 psi / 93F

    Suction line temp: 9.2F

    2 gal res temp: -2.8F (-19.3C) --All I could find for this time of year was "rainx 2-in-1" which says it's good to -25. The res is simply a 5gal bucket with about 10' of tubing from the pump to the HX input, and maybe 2' of tubing from HX output into the bucket.

    Equalization psi: After 5 min or so--Low: +120 High:148

    So, if I understand things correctly, my superheat is ~ 11.2. I ended up using 1 complete 15oz. can of R-22.

    I did not take the compressorr temp or amps, but I will do that when I work with it some more--after I get some sleep. The heaters should be here today--gotta love Fedex home delivery.
    Last edited by Naja002; 08-01-2009 at 05:06 AM.

  2. #102
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    Congratulations!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Naja002 View Post
    2 gal res temp: -2.8F (-19.3C) --All I could find for this time of year was "rainx 2-in-1" which says it's good to -25.
    First of all, let me say fantastic! Secondly, you should know that Lowe's carries Ethanol. They sell it as Denatured Alcohol, but it's the same thing. And if all else fails, you can always use Rubbing Alcohol. The combination of those two chemicals will get you lower than you've considered possible.

    And while this is extremely difficult to work with, Hydrogen Peroxide at industrial strength (@20-30%) will work well with Ethanol instead of water. I found that out doing research on azeotropic solutions for deep cold mixtures. You can likely find a strong enough solution of H2O2 at a hair salon supply house.

    Shingoshi
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shingoshi View Post
    First of all, let me say fantastic! Secondly, you should know that Lowe's carries Ethanol. They sell it as Denatured Alcohol, but it's the same thing. And if all else fails, you can always use Rubbing Alcohol. The combination of those two chemicals will get you lower than you've considered possible.

    And while this is extremely difficult to work with, Hydrogen Peroxide at industrial strength (@20-30%) will work well with Ethanol instead of water. I found that out doing research on azeotropic solutions for deep cold mixtures. You can likely find a strong enough solution of H2O2 at a hair salon supply house.

    Shingoshi
    Got it. What I bought was ~$5.50 for 2 gals. Denatured Alcohol is what? ~$8/quart? This system is only going to go so low. No need spending a lot of $$ on fluids that will really provide no benefit in this situation. The downside to what I bought is that it may contain silicon which is not a plus. So, I'm going to try to hunt up some actual De-icer Monday, but I'm still looking at $3-4/gal x 3gals.

    High % H202 is a component in rocket fuel. The higher the %--the more dangerous it becomes. No need for that in this situation. It's about what works best overall in a given situation.




    Ok, Numbers, numbers, numbers....

    I have not made any adjustments--just did a long run and took some numbers:

    No Load = 40w from pump

    Ambient: 89-90F

    Res temp: 91.6

    6 mins: Low 77, High 273, Res temp: 65.2F

    14.5 Mins: Low 46 High 237.5, Res temp: 32F/0C

    30 mins: Res temp 9F

    40 mins: 1.6F

    55 mins -3.3F

    72 mins: Low 20.5 psi (-4F) High 202, Res temp: -5.2F/-20.7 Suction line: 10.6F

    Superheat ~14.6

    I've added most of the insulation...still a little bit more to add.

    It's been sitting again for ~10hrs. Just fired it up ~40 mins ago with a 540W load.
    Last edited by Naja002; 08-02-2009 at 12:15 PM.

  4. #104
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    Where are you going to get the de-icer??

    I'd be curious to see what you turn up with it. What's the boiling point of the de-icer you'll be using? And I didn't pay anywhere near $8/quart for my Denatured Alcohol. Did you really check the prices at Lowe's? I brought a gallon of it, and I certainly didn't pay $32 for it. Did you mean $8/gal? Because that would sound more like what I paid.

    Shingoshi
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shingoshi View Post
    I'd be curious to see what you turn up with it. What's the boiling point of the de-icer you'll be using? And I didn't pay anywhere near $8/quart for my Denatured Alcohol. Did you really check the prices at Lowe's? I brought a gallon of it, and I certainly didn't pay $32 for it. Did you mean $8/gal? Because that would sound more like what I paid.

    Shingoshi
    Not sure where the "boiling point" of the de-icer factors in here.

    I was going from memory, but a quick google search pops up with about the same figure ($7.50/quart):

    ACE DENATURED ALCOHOL Prime grade ethanol

    But these are more in the price range you speak of and look a lot like the cans at Lowes, IIRC:

    KLEAN STRIP QSL-26 Denatured Alcohol, Qt.--$2.86/qt.

    KLEAN STRIP Denatured Alcohol-$17.99/gal



    More numbers....

    Load: 540W = 2x 250W heaters + 40W pump

    Ambient: 80.1F

    Res temp: 85.7F

    30 mins: 23.2/ -4.4C

    52 mins: 16.4F/ -8.3C

    70 mins: 15.5F/ -9.3C, Low: 32 psi/ 9F, High 193, Suction: 20F

    This is where I subtract 15 mins. I turned off the Chiller, pump, heaters long enough to plug in a killawatt. Compressor protection delay was probably ~2 mins. + waiting for res temp to get back to where it was--then plugged heaters back in.

    85 mins: Amps 3.4, Res temp: 13.4F/ -10C, Low 31.5 psi/ 9F, High 191, suction: 18.5F

    105 mins: Amps 3.4, Res temp: 13.5F/ -11C ( averaging 13.3-14.5F = ~14F/ -10.2C), Low 31.5 psi/ 9F, High 193, Suction: 18.9

    Superheat: ~9.9F

    Putting my hand on the compressor and/or High side line is no problem at all.


    ~15 mins ago I plugged in another 250W heater for a total 790W load.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I just added a 250W heater to the above, so temps rise...

    Load: 790W = 250W x3 + 40W pump

    Ambient: 82F

    35mins: Amps 3.51, 22.4F/ -5C, Low: 38 psi/ 15F, High: 201, Suction: 24.3F
    Superheat: 9.3F

    70mins: 23.5F/ -4.4C, Low: 38.5 psi/ 16F, High: 204, Suction: 25.2F
    Superheat: 9.2F

    100 mins: Res temp 23.4/ -4.7C, Low: 39 psi/ 16F, High: 206, Suction: 25.4F
    Superheat: 9.4F


    Running 890W load now....

    --------------------------------------------------------


    Same as above--just added 100W = 2x 50W heaters:

    Load: 890W = 3x 250W + 2x 50W heaters + 40W pump

    Ambient: 83F

    30mins: Amps 3.64, Res temp 27.5/ -2C, Low 42 psi/ 19F, High 211, Suction 27.9F
    Superheat: 8.9F

    63 mins: Amps 3.66, Res temp 28.2F/ -2.2C, Low 43 psi/ 20F, High 215, Suction 28.6
    Superheat: 8.6F

    105 mins: Amps 3.7, Res temp 28.3F/ -1C, Low 43.5 psi/ 21F, High 217.5, Suction: 29.5F
    Superheat: 8.5F

    Compressor starting to get toasty, but can keep my hand on it as long as I want....

    Moving down to 390W load....

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Load: 390W = 1x 250W + 2x 50W + 40W pump

    Start Ambient: 84.5F
    End ambient: 86.6F

    105 mins: Amps 3.48, Res Temp 13.5F/ -10.4C, Low 31 psi/ 8F, High 209, Suction: 19.1
    Superheat: 11.1F


    Moving down to 290W....


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Load: 290W = 1x 250W + 40W pump

    Ambient: 88.2F

    70 mins: Res temp 8.8F/ -12.7C, Low 27.5 psi/ 4F, High 211, Suction 16.4F
    Superheat: 12.4F


    Going No Load (=40W pump) again....


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------


    No Load: = 40W pump

    Ambient 88.4F

    65 mins: Amps 3.28, Res temp -4.8F/ -20C, Low 20.5 psi/ -4.5F, High 201, Suction 8.1
    Superheat: 12.6F

    110 mins: Amps 3.26, Res temp -4.9F/ -20C, Low 20 psi/ -5F, High 202.5, Suction: 7.6F
    Superheat: 12.6F
    Compressor is not hot at all. Warm, but not hot.


    Ok, done for now. Need to finish the insulation after everything melts and dries off. Then I can see about remounting the controller and the temp probe into the insulation, and then see what's going on with fluid temps in the 60-80F range.
    Last edited by Naja002; 08-02-2009 at 09:34 PM.

  6. #106
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    More Numbers....


    Thermostat is set on 60F and I'm just letting it cycle. Skipping the initial time and jumping to 2hrs:

    3gal Res- RV Coolant (very liquid...water consistency [-50***])
    890W load

    Cycle time:
    On ~8 mins 20 secs
    Off ~2 mins 50 secs

    Ambient: 83F

    On cycle: - (beginning to end of On cycle)

    Low: 56-54F / 30-29F
    High: 224-221 / 110-108F
    Suction: 74.9-46.1F
    Liquid: 93.4F (end of On cycle)
    Comp. temp: 130.3-128F (end of On cycle)
    Superheat: 44.9-17.1F
    Subcooling: ~14.4F


    Off Cycle: - (below is at the end of Off cycle)

    Equalization Psig: ~130 / 74F
    Suction: 74.9F
    Liquid: 86F
    Comp. temp: 130.3F



    Unit is uncased, so there is little to no air flow over the compressor. I added a small fan to blow on the compressor:


    With air flow on the compressor

    Now at about 3 hrs.

    Ambient: 85F

    On Cycle: - (beginning to end)

    Low: 52-50psig / 28-26F
    High: 223-225 / 109-110F
    Suction:70.2-44.1F
    Liquid:88-95.7F
    Comp. temp: 124.6 down to 122.5 up to 126F
    Superheat: 42.2-18.1
    Subcooling: 21-14.3F


    Off Cycle:

    Comp. temp: 125.5-124.6F
    Equalization pisg: 119


    ***Propylene glycol (57-55-6), Water (7732-18-5) DOWFROST RVR and Proprietary Rust and Corrosion Inhibitors. Good to -50F.. Use undiluted. Odorless. Non-toxic/non-staining.



    ----------------------------------------------------------


    Final numbers.....

    5.5 hrs

    Ambient 88F

    Cycle
    On: 9 mins 30 secs
    Off: 3 mins 16 secs

    On cycle:

    Low: 52.5-48 / 28-24F
    High: 234 112F
    Suction: 74.5-42.7F
    Liquid: 92.3-100.2
    Comp. temp: 130.6 down to 126.7 up to 132.4F
    Superheat: 46.5-18.7F
    Subcooling:11.8F

    Off Cycle:

    Equalization: 130 psig
    Comp. temp: 132.4-130.6F
    Last edited by Naja002; 08-04-2009 at 10:46 AM.

  7. #107
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    Crunchers on this thing yet boss?
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    CRUNCH HARD, it may not help me and you, but it might help the Kids.

  8. #108
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    Nope, not yet, Hauss. Still trying to sort out the charge, which I think is Ok for a full-range chiller....and more importantly--trying to get that stupid temp controller figured out. It's pretty whacked and I've spent quite a few hrs trying to sort out some rhyme or reason to it. Sometimes I get a 6F range, often times 10F, sometimes 8F, 12F....just take your frickin' pick! Thing is going to drive me mad!
    Last edited by Naja002; 08-06-2009 at 09:47 PM.

  9. #109
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    Amazing project! It looks very clean. I've been reading a lot and I'm really interested in making my own too.

    Do you have to start it before your computer start? Like even if the water is at room temp or you have to wait a certain time before the pc can start?

    Is it better to start this system each time you want to use your computer or it should be let 24/24?

    I don't know if it will suits my needs and I don't know if it is really practical.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadfear View Post
    Amazing project! It looks very clean. I've been reading a lot and I'm really interested in making my own too.
    Thanx! Glad you enjoy the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by deadfear View Post
    Do you have to start it before your computer start? Like even if the water is at room temp or you have to wait a certain time before the pc can start?
    You should be able to start the chiller and PC at the same time. If your chiller is set for sub-zero and your PC is max OCed based on that...then you may need to give the chiller a head start, but otherwise you should be fine.



    Quote Originally Posted by deadfear View Post
    Is it better to start this system each time you want to use your computer or it should be let 24/24?
    Depends I guess. It will take 20 minutes or more for the temp to drop pretty good. Longer to hit bottom....and it depends upon what your temp range is (sub-zero/ambient/sub-ambient), what the load is, etc. My ghetto chiller just runs 24/7 because the PCs run 24/7....

  11. #111
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    Might also give this a try just to see if i can do it

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assassin48 View Post
    Might also give this a try just to see if i can do it











  13. #113
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    Naja...pick your brain some.....the various outlets available on those plate exchangers.....are any capable of working at the pressures found in refrigeration other than those needing a brazed joint? I have very little experience of brazing dissimilar metals and am hoping a little work with a flaring tool would work with these.


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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Naja...pick your brain some.....the various outlets available on those plate exchangers.....are any capable of working at the pressures found in refrigeration other than those needing a brazed joint? I have very little experience of brazing dissimilar metals and am hoping a little work with a flaring tool would work with these.
    Honesty, OC, I'm not the one to answer that question, so hopefully one of the more knowledgeable folks will chime in....

    That said, my guess would be, Yes, that flaring would work. Honesty, I do not see why they would not work. They are used for TXVs and other things, so it should be Good...



    EDIT: On 2nd thought....the plateHX isn't going to have it's side of the flared joint, so I guess I'm retracting my comments in bold above....
    Last edited by Naja002; 08-15-2009 at 01:56 PM.

  15. #115
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    Very nice naja! I'm looking forward to see it on your computer.

    OC, I'm making my own too and I've decided to make it done by a pro, someone who work with these kind of stuff every days. I don't want to miss something and break the whole systems. A little more buck for a completly safe way to do it.

  16. #116
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    To me that is a fall back position I can go to if I need to but, provided I don't break something too expensive, The fun is in the building....and learning a new subject to some degree.


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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    To me that is a fall back position I can go to if I need to but, provided I don't break something too expensive, The fun is in the building....and learning a new subject to some degree.
    Honestly, OC, if you have any brazing experience...then you have more then I started out with... Soldering, sweating...yeah, sure. Brazing? Welding? Nope, never done either before. I've learned a lot through this experience and things will be better in the future. One thing I learned is that mapp works fine for smaller (3/8-1/4") copper, but for the stainless...whip out the oxy/mapp or oxy/acet..... The oxy/mapp works well...the biggest issue is getting the flame set with the rinkie-dink "regulator"/adjustment knobs.

    Not quite sure what you want to do, but I say: Go for it! It's really not that difficult...just a large learning curve. If you are just looking to convert something...it's quite a bit easier....

    Rock-n-roll, old man, Rock-n-roll......

  18. #118
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    On closer examination...

    I've noticed that your compressor is a smaller version of mine. I just got four of the Rechi compressors yesterday.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...EOIBSA:US:1123

    And today I got my heat-exchanger. It's a 60-plate brazed unit. Except that mine has all 3/4" FPT ports. Big and Beautiful!


    I mean you were asking for pictures, right?

    Shingoshi
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    Solution: The immediate equalization of all knowledge among all beings.

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  19. #119
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    NAJA, looking good keep it up. It appears you have a handle on it.

    Old Chap, OXY/ACET, Flux, and 45+% silver brazing rods is all you need for dissimilar meterials.

  20. #120
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    Shingoshi....What fittings / connection solution do you have planned for the refrigeration side of your exchanger??


    My Biggest Fear Is When I die, My Wife Sells All My Stuff For What I Told Her I Paid For It.
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  21. #121
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    Fittings for the cold...

    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Shingoshi....What fittings / connection solution do you have planned for the refrigeration side of your exchanger??
    I'm looking at using stainless steel 3/4" MPT reducing bushings to AN fittings. The fittings in this picture are MPT, but mine are actually FPT. But I'm also considering directly connecting either a vortex tube or gas-motive injector to the ports also. Then my tubing would attach to either of those.

    Shingoshi
    EDIT: At some point, I'm going to need an assortment of fittings. Especially bulkhead fittings for refrigerant applications. Here's an example of what I mean.

    I will need to be able to pass lines through the walls of my case.
    Last edited by Shingoshi; 08-19-2009 at 12:24 AM.
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    Solution: The immediate equalization of all knowledge among all beings.

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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shingoshi View Post

    I mean you were asking for pictures, right?

    Shingoshi
    Yes, Shingoshi, Your pictures in Your thread. Not more stock photos in other people's threads....

    Quote Originally Posted by ultralo1 View Post
    NAJA, looking good keep it up. It appears you have a handle on it.
    Thanx, ultralo 1! And Thank You for your help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shingoshi View Post
    I'm looking at using stainless steel 3/4" MPT reducing bushings to AN fittings. The fittings in this picture are MPT, but mine are actually FPT. But I'm also considering directly connecting either a vortex tube or gas-motive injector to the ports also. Then my tubing would attach to either of those.

    Shingoshi
    EDIT: At some point, I'm going to need an assortment of fittings. Especially bulkhead fittings for refrigerant applications. Here's an example of what I mean.
    I will need to be able to pass lines through the walls of my case.
    Again, what does that have to do with this project?

  23. #123
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    shingoshi, as i said at eocf.... the thread jacking has to stop.


    Naja i have followed all (i think?) of your threads and whilst i have not posted in them, i love what you do and even more im loving how much more advanced your projects are gettting. Sorry if you said it but after this whats next?
    mentally confused and prone to wandering

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by teyber View Post
    shingoshi, as i said at eocf.... the thread jacking has to stop.


    Naja i have followed all (i think?) of your threads and whilst i have not posted in them, i love what you do and even more im loving how much more advanced your projects are gettting. Sorry if you said it but after this whats next?
    Thank You, Teyber, on all counts. And support from people here with experience is genuinely appreciated!

    So, what's next? Hmmmm, I don't know yet. But if ya want to read a small book....here's what's going through my mind:

    First, I've learned a lot through this experience. It's opened up a new world with many possible paths. I'm going to sell this chiller and see about building one that suits my needs now and in the future--but I don't know that I am going to build that next. This chiller works fine, except the controller temp range is just too squirrly. So, whatever chiller I build for myself in the future will incorporate a 3rd party controller onboard. My ghetto chiller works well, summer is almost over--so, I'll be switching back to the indoor rad for winter heat before too long. So, that leaves the door wide open. I started pondering the possibility of an AC converted to an Autocascade....then found the one done by Mytekcontrols. With his superb layout and documentation, I could definitely get past the physical build, so it would be the tuning that would be the serious challenge....plus the cost of the other gases and recovery tanks, etc. Not quite sure I'm ready for all of that. But I must say: Michael--what a fantastic job on that thread!!!

    I'm not really into "phase", but a SS unit large enough to handle an i7 would be cool to play with,.....Ummmm, I mean test! But, again, that would be something I would turn around and sell, because it's really not my thing and it doesn't fit in with my future plans/project.

    And then, of course, there's the 2-stager. Again, not sure I'm ready for that.

    Don't get me wrong: I'm not sitting here thinking that I am now "Master of the Universe" or anything. But as long as I have a pretty good handle on a concept....I can usually stumble and fumble my way through it, and I'm always up for a challenge!

    So, atm I'm really not sure what's next. If I can sell this chiller reasonably quickly, then I may just build another one to sell in order to help recoup a little bit of what I've spent on tools, equipment, supplies, etc. Maybe not....I'll deal with that then. I've still got the Evap that came out of the AC unit, so I could probably build a decent i7 phase using that evap for the condesner. That's been the biggest issue for me building from scratch--finding the condenser coils. I guess I have to get enough experience with this stuff in order to get the secret decoder ring to find out where to get condenser coils!


    Here's some more pix:








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