Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 102

Thread: 4+1 vs. 8+2(8+1) Phase Power Design

  1. #51
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by xoqolatl View Post
    Dr. MOS is, in short, a technology where a pair of mosfets (high & low) and a mosfet driver are integrated into one circuit. Instead of three (driver, mosfet low, mosfet up) you have one. They have nothing to do with phase count, but MSI says they run cooler and output less ripple. MSI is not the only company that uses integrated mosfets; Gigabyte has them too, for example on GA770T-UD3P.
    Are you sure about that? I've never heard or seen this model. Could you provide me a link to it?

  2. #52
    all outta gum
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    3,393
    Here you go: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/...ProductID=3096
    I used it in my Regor and Callisto review.



    Here's the PWM area with integrated mosfets:
    www.teampclab.pl
    MOA 2009 Poland #2, AMD Black Ops 2010, MOA 2011 Poland #1, MOA 2011 EMEA #12

    Test bench: empty

  3. #53
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    109
    Dude, I believe its just marketing of normal mosfets. Maybe better components but nevertheless it aint driver mosfets.

    Here are some shots of Driver Mosfets. Notice they have combined the 3 components into a single chip for each phase?




  4. #54
    all outta gum
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    3,393
    You are right, these are not driver mosfets. My bad
    But I'm sure I have seen such fets somewehere not on MSI board...
    www.teampclab.pl
    MOA 2009 Poland #2, AMD Black Ops 2010, MOA 2011 Poland #1, MOA 2011 EMEA #12

    Test bench: empty

  5. #55
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by xoqolatl View Post
    You are right, these are not driver mosfets. My bad
    But I'm sure I have seen such fets somewehere not on MSI board...
    No worries man.

    Another company that has used non traditional power circuits is DFI. I believe they were one of the first to use digital pwm mainstream and it seems EVGA has started to do so too.

    Just curious how DrMOS and Digital PWM stack up to traditional mosfets since Asus and Gigabyte seem to swear by them (in huge numbers) in their top range boards.

  6. #56
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    106
    ASUS M4A89GTD PRO/USB3

    is that a true 8+2 Power Design?






    here's some data on the design:

    [EPU (ASP0902) PWM + PEM (ASP0910) PWM + uP6282AD Driver]

    ASUS M4A89GTD Pro/USB3 Intel CPU from the mainboard, the power supply have been used primarily by a combination of EPU and the PEM CPU up 8Phase, memory support 2Phase configuration has 8 +2 Phase Power Supply. Also, Phase 2, the MOSFET and 5 per uP6282AD MOSFET driver is a combination. EPU processor clocks and voltages depending on the load, lower power consumption, ASUS EPU-6 engine that can be reduced (CPU, memory, chipset, HDD, VGA, paenkeonteurol management) is the key.
    Last edited by erek; 06-25-2010 at 11:05 AM.

  7. #57
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    106
    they say..


    ASUS new improved ASP0902 series PWM chip, with PEM form 8 +2 Phase Power Supply System.
    Last edited by erek; 11-07-2010 at 12:12 PM.

  8. #58
    Xtreme Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    966
    to me, 8+2 phase design is to evenly shared the load over a parallel channel
    so that each MOSFET only take up the load half of what 4+1 phase design is taking;
    hence, this would lower the operating temperature of MOSFET while user pushes the voltage when overclocking.
    Main Rig:
    Processor & Motherboard:AMD Phenom II x6 1090T / Asus Crosshair Formula III
    Random Access Memory Module:Kingston KVM 2x4GB DDR3-1333MHz
    Graphic Card:Sapphire HD7970
    Power Supply Unit:FSP AURUM 92+ Series PT-650M
    Storage Unit:Seagate 500GB Hdd
    Processor Heatsink Fan:CoolerMaster V6GT
    Chasis:Thermaltake Level 10GTS Black

  9. #59
    Brilliant Idiot
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hell on Earth
    Posts
    11,011
    afa8ik there is not true 8 phase PWM......they are all 4+4+2 or whatever....thats how it works.......ati once made an extremely well laid out true 6 phase back in rd 480 580 days.....
    heatware chew*
    I've got no strings to hold me down.
    To make me fret, or make me frown.
    I had strings but now I'm free.
    There are no strings on me

  10. #60
    NooB MOD
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    5,804
    Quality phases mean more than quantity

    Quote Originally Posted by hipro5 View Post


    Actually there is NO NEED for 164 phases that companies put in nowadays mobos.... FOUR (4) are enough with nowadays materials and maybe SIX (6) with the upcoming Gulftowns....
    The 1024 phases is a "marketing trick" nowadays....
    You will buy MY mobo because I put 2048 phases in my motherboard....

    Someone please calculate the Wattage of a P4 Gallatin at 2.23VCore at 4600MHz with ONLY FOUR phases and tell us what you see.....
    The Legend Speaketh (TM)
    Xtreme SUPERCOMPUTER
    Nov 1 - Nov 8 Join Now!


    Quote Originally Posted by Jowy Atreides View Post
    Intel is about to get athlon'd
    Athlon64 3700+ KACAE 0605APAW @ 3455MHz 314x11 1.92v/Vapochill || Core 2 Duo E8500 Q807 @ 6060MHz 638x9.5 1.95v LN2 @ -120'c || Athlon64 FX-55 CABCE 0516WPMW @ 3916MHz 261x15 1.802v/LN2 @ -40c || DFI LP UT CFX3200-DR || DFI LP UT NF4 SLI-DR || DFI LP UT NF4 Ultra D || Sapphire X1950XT || 2x256MB Kingston HyperX BH-5 @ 290MHz 2-2-2-5 3.94v || 2x256MB G.Skill TCCD @ 350MHz 3-4-4-8 3.1v || 2x256MB Kingston HyperX BH-5 @ 294MHz 2-2-2-5 3.94v

  11. #61
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Falkenberg, Sweden
    Posts
    365
    Quote Originally Posted by chew* View Post
    afa8ik there is not true 8 phase PWM......they are all 4+4+2 or whatever....thats how it works.......ati once made an extremely well laid out true 6 phase back in rd 480 580 days.....
    This has gotten me to read thru old Grouper/Manta/Sturegon threads, but I could only find 4 phase PWM´s. Wich board hade the 6 phase PWM?
    AMD
    955BE, 720BE & Athlon II 250
    Gigabyte 790FXT-UD5P F5 Bios
    Crucial Value 2*1Gb D9 JNM
    XFX 4770
    Seventeam 650w

  12. #62
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    249
    Quote Originally Posted by G.Foyle View Post
    There seems to be a lot of confusion about ASUS 8+2 power circuitry.
    Both Crosshair 3 and M4A79T-Deluxe use L6740 PWM controller made by ST Micro.
    It's a 4+1 phase controller, which means power regulation is done in 4 phases for core voltage and in 1 phase for NB voltage.
    That is the same controller used by Biostar for the TA790GXE 128M and presumably all the other 4+1 boards they released at the same time. The TA890FXE is now on the L6717 controller. My experience with the L6740 from my TA790GXE 128M was that it was best to disable the active phase switching when overclocking. With phase switching enabled I could crash/shutdown the board stopping a Prime95 run whereas the same frequencies and voltages were perfectly stable in the same scenario with phase switching disabled via the BIOS.

  13. #63
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Sweden, Linköping
    Posts
    2,034
    Quote Originally Posted by chew* View Post
    afa8ik there is not true 8 phase PWM......they are all 4+4+2 or whatever....thats how it works.......ati once made an extremely well laid out true 6 phase back in rd 480 580 days.....
    Feels like I am nagging, but how about the ASUS Crosshair IV Formula? Is that also a 4+1 + 4+1 phase design?

    And what about those Intel board with 24 and even 32 phases are those 6 and even 8 pairs of 4-phase designs? Seems kinda stupid to me... Not disbelieving you, I am sure this kind of marketing works great.
    SweClockers.com

    CPU: Phenom II X4 955BE
    Clock: 4200MHz 1.4375v
    Memory: Dominator GT 2x2GB 1600MHz 6-6-6-20 1.65v
    Motherboard: ASUS Crosshair IV Formula
    GPU: HD 5770

  14. #64
    Xtreme Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    966
    Quote Originally Posted by Smartidiot89 View Post
    Feels like I am nagging, but how about the ASUS Crosshair IV Formula? Is that also a 4+1 + 4+1 phase design?

    And what about those Intel board with 24 and even 32 phases are those 6 and even 8 pairs of 4-phase designs? Seems kinda stupid to me... Not disbelieving you, I am sure this kind of marketing works great.

    IMO, if they make the power phase parallel, it helps when you up the voltage to a certain level since the current were shared by more MOSFET, those MOSFET definitely would run cooler than lesser phase
    Main Rig:
    Processor & Motherboard:AMD Phenom II x6 1090T / Asus Crosshair Formula III
    Random Access Memory Module:Kingston KVM 2x4GB DDR3-1333MHz
    Graphic Card:Sapphire HD7970
    Power Supply Unit:FSP AURUM 92+ Series PT-650M
    Storage Unit:Seagate 500GB Hdd
    Processor Heatsink Fan:CoolerMaster V6GT
    Chasis:Thermaltake Level 10GTS Black

  15. #65
    Xtreme 3D Team
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    8,482
    ASUS/GIGABYTE's 8+2 phase is indeed a 4+1/4+1 phase design. It was an AM2 socket design contstraint and the board is only able to have a true 4+1 phase design. That didn't stop manufacturers from doubling up though.

    As for my board's 6+2 design and BIOSTAR's 6+2 design I'm not exactly 100% sure on how they achieved that.
    Smile

  16. #66
    Brilliant Idiot
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hell on Earth
    Posts
    11,011
    Quote Originally Posted by BadNizze View Post
    This has gotten me to read thru old Grouper/Manta/Sturegon threads, but I could only find 4 phase PWM´s. Wich board hade the 6 phase PWM?
    some PWMS chokes and caps count does not equal phase
    heatware chew*
    I've got no strings to hold me down.
    To make me fret, or make me frown.
    I had strings but now I'm free.
    There are no strings on me

  17. #67
    Brilliant Idiot
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hell on Earth
    Posts
    11,011
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBeep2 View Post
    ASUS/GIGABYTE's 8+2 phase is indeed a 4+1/4+1 phase design. It was an AM2 socket design contstraint and the board is only able to have a true 4+1 phase design. That didn't stop manufacturers from doubling up though.

    As for my board's 6+2 design and BIOSTAR's 6+2 design I'm not exactly 100% sure on how they achieved that.
    thats not 6 phase...........
    heatware chew*
    I've got no strings to hold me down.
    To make me fret, or make me frown.
    I had strings but now I'm free.
    There are no strings on me

  18. #68
    Xtreme 3D Team
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    8,482
    Quote Originally Posted by chew* View Post
    thats not 6 phase...........
    *scratches chin*
    Smile

  19. #69
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    249
    The Biostar FX board is 4+2. Although the stock cooling solution is possibly worse than what I had modded onto my TA790GXE 128M 4+1 board the FX power supply is still much stronger in practice. The 4+1 board I have can handle quads fine but not a X6 at high voltage. The TA890GXE is 4+1 too but judging from other users here it is definitely improved over the previous generation of 4+1 boards Biostar had.

  20. #70
    Xtreme Enthusiast TheBlueChanell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    565
    I think you are all reading way to far into this. Everyone's been on the phase kick since the MSI with 4+1 kept blowing up. The key is to keep the PWM's cool. I've pushed my GD70 pretty hard but I've always had active cooling over the NB/PWM area and I've not had any issues. I plan on pushing it harder when I get around to picking up a Thuban before replacing it with a 890FX board. There was an article, I believe on bit-tech, a while back regarding "Phase" design. 4+1, 4+4+1 etc.

    Less is more can apply here as long as the quality of components is high, and to those worrying about your boards being 4+4+2/1 whatever and not true 8+2 dont worry and just enjoy your board and the overclock that comes with it. If this thread was never made a majority of you would of never known the difference and/or care.
    Main: 900D - Prime 1000T - Asus Crosshair VI Extreme - R7 1700X @ 4.0ghz - RX Vega 64? - 32GB DDR4 3466 - 1TB 960 Pro -
    --- XSPC AX360 x3 - HK IV Pro - HK RX480 - HK 200 D5 - BP Compression ---
    HTPC: 250D - Prime 850T - Gigabyte G1 ITX - i7 6700K @ 4.5ghz - GTX 1080 Ti - 16GB 3200 - 1TB 960 Pro -
    --- ST30 x UT60 - Kyros HF - KryoGraphics 1080 - HK100 DDC - Monsoon Compression ---
    HV01: Define XL R2 - Prime 1200P - Asus Zenith Extreme - TR 1950X - RX580CF - 128GB DDR4 ECC - 512GB 960P - 4x 2TB RE
    HV02: Node 804 - Prime 850T - SuperMicro X1SSH - E3-1230 v6 - Vega FE - 64GB ECC - 512GB 960 Pro - 4x 6TB Gold -

  21. #71
    Xtreme 3D Team
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    8,482
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueChanell View Post
    I think you are all reading way to far into this. Everyone's been on the phase kick since the MSI with 4+1 kept blowing up. The key is to keep the PWM's cool. I've pushed my GD70 pretty hard but I've always had active cooling over the NB/PWM area and I've not had any issues. I plan on pushing it harder when I get around to picking up a Thuban before replacing it with a 890FX board. There was an article, I believe on bit-tech, a while back regarding "Phase" design. 4+1, 4+4+1 etc.

    Less is more can apply here as long as the quality of components is high, and to those worrying about your boards being 4+4+2/1 whatever and not true 8+2 dont worry and just enjoy your board and the overclock that comes with it. If this thread was never made a majority of you would of never known the difference and/or care.
    6-core?

    All I was saying in the other thread is that MSI should NOT need a fan over the NB/PWM area. They design those heatsinks for a reason. It doesn't say in the manual to buy a fan separately and stick it over them. It's supposed to stay cool. If ASRock, ASUS, Gigabyte, ECS, DFI can do it then why can't MSI?
    Last edited by BeepBeep2; 06-29-2010 at 10:31 AM.
    Smile

  22. #72
    Xtreme Enthusiast TheBlueChanell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    565
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBeep2 View Post
    6-core?

    All I was saying in the other thread is that MSI should NOT need a fan over the NB/PWM area. They design those heatsinks for a reason. It doesn't say in the manual to buy a fan separately and stick it over them. It's supposed to stay cool. If ASRock, ASUS, Gigabyte, ECS, DFI can do it then why can't MSI?
    If my memory serve's me well DFI had issue's with pwm's blowing up on the M2R boards. The one's that were stable, were as rock solid as you can get.

    On the MSI if you run the CPU stock, or push light voltage I don't think you'd need a fan but if you're pushing heavy clocks and volts you should probably throw some cooling on there just like any other component that you're overvolting and clocking. Especially on air. It just seems like good practice to me but idk :/ ymmv.

    Edit: Forget to tell you what I was running. It's a 965BE 140w, if you read my earlier post more carefully you'll see I mention moving to a Thuban. I'm been doing some other stuff so it's not high on my priority list atm.
    Last edited by TheBlueChanell; 06-29-2010 at 11:13 AM.
    Main: 900D - Prime 1000T - Asus Crosshair VI Extreme - R7 1700X @ 4.0ghz - RX Vega 64? - 32GB DDR4 3466 - 1TB 960 Pro -
    --- XSPC AX360 x3 - HK IV Pro - HK RX480 - HK 200 D5 - BP Compression ---
    HTPC: 250D - Prime 850T - Gigabyte G1 ITX - i7 6700K @ 4.5ghz - GTX 1080 Ti - 16GB 3200 - 1TB 960 Pro -
    --- ST30 x UT60 - Kyros HF - KryoGraphics 1080 - HK100 DDC - Monsoon Compression ---
    HV01: Define XL R2 - Prime 1200P - Asus Zenith Extreme - TR 1950X - RX580CF - 128GB DDR4 ECC - 512GB 960P - 4x 2TB RE
    HV02: Node 804 - Prime 850T - SuperMicro X1SSH - E3-1230 v6 - Vega FE - 64GB ECC - 512GB 960 Pro - 4x 6TB Gold -

  23. #73
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    milwaukee
    Posts
    1,683
    i beat the hell out my 790fx-gd70 & 965be - over 1.54v 24/7 & constantly over 1.6v benching, never w/ active cooling on pwm's - and stable as a rock. they were always hot as hell too because they were hiddin out of the case airflow behind my 120mm rad. the gd70 was prolly the best board ive owned regardless if it has 0+1 phases
    LEO!!!!
    amd phenom II x6 1100T | gigabyte 990fxa-ud3 . .
    2x2gb g.skill 2133c8 | 128gb g.skill falcon ssd
    sapphire ati 5850 | x-fi xtrememusic. . .
    samsung f4 2tb | samsung dvdrw . .
    corsair tx850w | windows 7 64-bit.
    ddc3.25 xspc restop | ek ltx | mc-tdx | BIP . .
    lycosa-g9-z2300 | 26" 1920x1200 lcd .

  24. #74
    NooB MOD
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    5,804
    Anyone care to work out the wattage on an FX-55 at 2v/3.92GHz max (albeit idle) and 1.68v/3.45GHz 100% load running F@H 24/7? I get 183w, which was stable for MONTHS without the proper cooling on the PWMs - and that was only four phase. It really isn't the NUMBER of phases but the quality. Now take George's example of a P4 3.4GHz EE Gallatin core at 4600MHz and 2.23v and I get 288w, again done on 4 phase back then.

    What's the TDP on an X4 965BE C2 at 4GHz 1.54v? And an X6 1090T at the same speed? I don't understand why the number of cores affects anything if the TDP is similar. Please someone enlighten me
    Xtreme SUPERCOMPUTER
    Nov 1 - Nov 8 Join Now!


    Quote Originally Posted by Jowy Atreides View Post
    Intel is about to get athlon'd
    Athlon64 3700+ KACAE 0605APAW @ 3455MHz 314x11 1.92v/Vapochill || Core 2 Duo E8500 Q807 @ 6060MHz 638x9.5 1.95v LN2 @ -120'c || Athlon64 FX-55 CABCE 0516WPMW @ 3916MHz 261x15 1.802v/LN2 @ -40c || DFI LP UT CFX3200-DR || DFI LP UT NF4 SLI-DR || DFI LP UT NF4 Ultra D || Sapphire X1950XT || 2x256MB Kingston HyperX BH-5 @ 290MHz 2-2-2-5 3.94v || 2x256MB G.Skill TCCD @ 350MHz 3-4-4-8 3.1v || 2x256MB Kingston HyperX BH-5 @ 294MHz 2-2-2-5 3.94v

  25. #75
    I am Xtreme zanzabar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    SF bay area, CA
    Posts
    15,769
    Quote Originally Posted by Oj101 View Post
    What's the TDP on an X4 965BE C2 at 4GHz 1.54v? And an X6 1090T at the same speed? I don't understand why the number of cores affects anything if the TDP is similar. Please someone enlighten me
    the thulban parts have a better design than the denab, the l3 and IMC (or the cpu-NB on the cpu settings) make up most of the TDP and amd specs teh TDP for a batch of parts not the individual. so i would guess that they have an over estiment on the 965 c3 and that the 1090 comes close to 125W, but at least with my chip amd gave it a VID of 1.3V but it can do stock at 1.18V so it is lower watt than amd is saying it is and they over volted it. for amd TDP is a measure of the cooling needed not the power consumption so to really tell u need a board that can read the amps going to the cpu (i know that the gd70 can in the bios it would be nice to see some1 tap that setting.)
    5930k, R5E, samsung 8GBx4 d-die, vega 56, wd gold 8TB, wd 4TB red, 2TB raid1 wd blue 5400
    samsung 840 evo 500GB, HP EX 1TB NVME , CM690II, swiftech h220, corsair 750hxi

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •