1. Originally posted by Hobocrow
Hey Guys, this is becoming sorta like, well, a food fight....Fugger, I'd like to come look at it for free! I could use a road trip!
yeah i know, im done makin an as outa myself. i just let my humor get carried away sometimes.

2. Not a problem, comes natural to some people. JK!

Just think, I would have bought you a prime rib dinner.

3. My cap question was lost when I was editing my post, not sure what happened. just noticed was gone.

Run cap drops the LRA, the compressor will function more efficiantly.

4. Don't forget, you still owe me that prime rib dinner. mmmmmm

Originally posted by FUGGER
Not a problem, comes natural to some people. JK!

Just think, I would have bought you a prime rib dinner.

picture a wave of electicity..... up and down ....up and down....
just a wavey line ok

now what the run cap does is creates another wave that doesnt go down and up as much and kinda keeps it uh .... not so wavey

it just kinda sorta uh,,, makes it more dc than ac i wanna say kinda...... less amps to make the waves,,, get it?

hey you removed your "how does a run cap question"?
Hi Skipper!

I know your MO. So I assume there is a lot of PM'n going on here, that the rest of us in the public bandwidth are not aware of.... but just for some insight in regard to the run cap scenario (only because I have been doing som reading)...

In a DC circuit, the capacitor acts like a storage device, in which an applied voltage can be stored for discharge upon the reverse of the polarity of the circuit. You see, in a DC circuit, no current can pass through a capacitor.

In an A/C current (application) however, the capacitor acts as a resistor (would act in a DC current). The start winding in an A/C current motor is of a lesser resistance conductor (thinner wire) than that of the run winding. The start winding cannot tolerate full voltage (current) during the continuous operation of the motor (other wise it would burn out. The capacitor acts as a "resistor" in order to reduce the "current" through the start winding, and allow it to produce an electromagnetic effect during the continuous operation of the motor, in order to increase motor efficiency (increase torque). There are certain other notes regarding the effect of the capacitor in the A/C circuit to explain, but I won't take up bandwidth (because if I were going to explain it... it would take a lot!!!! ... of bandwidth )

I am sure that DaBit can elaborate on the discoveries of Mr. Faraday, in regard to the application of capacitors and their inherant characteristics in A/C and D/C circuits (which are very dissimilar, and interesting nonetheless).

6. Originally posted by herefishy
Hi Skipper!

I know your MO. So I assume there is a lot of PM'n going on here, that the rest of us in the public bandwidth are not aware of.... but just for some insight in regard to the run cap scenario (only because I have been doing som reading)...

In a DC circuit, the capacitor acts like a storage device, in which an applied voltage can be stored for discharge upon the reverse of the polarity of the circuit. You see, in a DC circuit, no current can pass through a capacitor.

In an A/C current (application) however, the capacitor acts as a resistor (would act in a DC current). The start winding in an A/C current motor is of a lesser resistance conductor (thinner wire) than that of the run winding. The start winding cannot tolerate full voltage (current) during the continuous operation of the motor (other wise it would burn out. The capacitor acts as a "resistor" in order to reduce the "current" through the start winding, and allow it to produce an electromagnetic effect during the continuous operation of the motor, in order to increase motor efficiency (increase torque). There are certain other notes regarding the effect of the capacitor in the A/C circuit to explain, but I won't take up bandwidth (because if I were going to explain it... it would take a lot!!!! ... of bandwidth )

I am sure that DaBit can elaborate on the discoveries of Mr. Faraday, in regard to the application of capacitors and their inherant characteristics in A/C and D/C circuits (which are very dissimilar, and interesting nonetheless).
wow man thats some good stuff u just spilled out there....how the heck do u know all this? how old r u? i mean thats some techy stuff that most people dont know ne thing about(me for one) and some how u put it in words i could understand...ever thought of teaching that stuff? nice work

7. You're not going to win this one, captain. On a normal cap tube system, the cap tube is sized for maximum capacity at a given temperature. If you lengthen the cap tube you sacrifice capacity for lower temps. If he has a lengthened cap tube, then his temps are possible. He can get those temps, especially under no load, given a longer than normal pulldown period.

8. I did some overclocking yesterday at LA Cascade.

I first tryed the Athlon 64 3200 and Gigabyte on CCs -80 plus cooler.
First, the A64 ran into problems with the combo of cold temps and high voltage. couldn't apply much over 2V without the chip freezing up. Did manage to run 3D at 2820Mhz at 2V. The cooler went from -81 to -76 under full load. We had OPPAINTER style contact with the chip, basicly achieve the perfect mobo Bowing
Next the gigabyte screwed us at 279fsb and above as far as overclocking the Graphics card. Somthing at those high FSBs messed it up.
Basicly the AMD64 is worthless for this cooling.

Next we did the P4 3.2 and Asus P4C800.
The chip did much better. The cooler ran –86 to –80 load with the P4 doing 4.6gigs 1.88V. The P4 doesn’t have the heat that the 2V Athlon has.

OPP

9. herefishy i was refering to how it looks on a old school spectrometer, that the way i was taut.

10. Originally posted by MickeyMouse
OPP, what no 3D on that 4.6ghz P4 that would have been nice..
Only used stock 9800 card on the Intel. The 404a was starting to moisten up the card after all the hours it was on.
The stock 9800 was getting 22k at stock speed, this was just clicking on benchmark button one time and letting it run all the way through. Also, the OS was for 3D03, ie had directX 9 on it. I'm thinking would would have been very close to 27k with optimal OS and overclocked Rady, maybe 26.8 or so.

OPP

11. Originally posted by FUGGER
CC, I was told I am not running straight 508B in second stage.
Then what?

Reggie (HVAC engineer) will be online soon and be able to answer questions and correct my mistakes.
I can't wait

Now what is that PEV you are talking about? Is that a pulsing expansion valve such as the Alco EX2-00? If so, how is superheat control done?

Man, lots of questions. I hate it when I put all my details online for others to learn, while they keep things secret

Originally posted by herefishy
I am sure that DaBit can elaborate on the discoveries of Mr. Faraday, in regard to the application of capacitors and their inherant characteristics in A/C and D/C circuits (which are very dissimilar, and interesting nonetheless).
I sure can, but I don't want to spit out the entire story again. Maybe I should make it an article on my website or so.

I will keep it simple this time. Imagine a wheel with a rod attached, just like the old train steam locomotives you see in teh western movies. Now imagine the mains A/C as the force moving the rod forward and backwards. If we only have this stick, we never know if our wheel starts turning, and if it does, what way. This main wheel+rod is our Run winding. And it exists in reality, only our rod consists of magnetic fields.

So, we need some extra help to get the wheel moving, and to produce some extra torque. This is where the start winding comes in. Imagine this as an extra rod on the wheel, some 90 degrees (a quarter of a wheel) shifted. Now if we pull correctly at the two rods, we can ensure that our wheel starts turning, and that it has the correct direction of rotation.

The problem is: we must push that second rod a bit differently from the main rod (exactly 90 degrees shifted would be nice). This is where our start capacitor comes into play. The start capacitor 'delays' the mains sinewave for a maximum of 90 degrees to generate the two forces.

If the motor is running, we don't need the extra rod anymore since the inertia of the 'wheel' will keep it moving, and it only needs to be pushed to compensate for the energy losses. This is when we can switch off the start capacitor. (CSIR motors, capacitive start, inductive run)

However, sometimes it is desired to have some extra torque. This is where we use a run capacitor; it generates a continuous second force to our 'wheel', increasing torque. (CSCR motors, capacitive start, capacitive run)

Some motors (usually A/C compressors) don't use separate run and start capacitors, but only one capacitor which stays switched in all the time (PSC motors, I think it is Permanent Start Capacitor or so). These motors are designed and optimized for fairly constant load, and thus the 'pushing forces' on the 'rods' can be optimized for the load.

3-phase motors don't need all this hassle. A 3-phase system consists of three sinewaves, each shifted 120 degrees. Thus, a 3-phase motor has a 'wheel' with 3 'rods' attached, each shifted 120 degrees in angle, and each pushing with the full force. This provides minimal energy consumption, maximal torque, and simplicity in motor design leading to robust motors.

Well, that's the simple explanation.

12. But very well put!

Sure every1 can understand that dabit...

]JR[

13. the PEV is a half ton pressure expansion valve that responds to load. Excat model unknown. Superheat is done by hand, I adjust the PEV after checking the suction side of the compressor.

14. You mean a constant evaporator pressure regulator? Those valves which you set to a predetermined evaporator pressure? Hmm, that sounds not as a superior expansion method either, and it certainly doesn't do anything on superheat control. I still haven't found the 'holy grail' in expanding low stage refrigerant.

I have been considering to convert a TEV to a heat motor operated EEV, or to use a pulse width modulated expansion valve. Both methods have their advantages over captube, but they also have their disadvantages.

15. Excellent OCing and cooling there guys

Seems that I really need to get workin on my cascade too

I've got one cascade freezer that might do the trick with some modifications. It has r502 on 1st stage and 'COLMIX' (what ever that is I dunno) on 2nd. Ive measured air temp of -91C inside the box with the fluke. That is rather good I'd guess?
I've opened it up a bit and found a knob for adjusting 1st stage temp. Scale goes down to -50C (it was set to -40C when I measured the -91C airtemp).

Now since there appers to be several experts in the forum I'd like to get your ideas on what I should do with this thing?

For instance can I just ript the parts off the case, take the refrigerant out of it, connect new CPU evap on it (with flexible tubin of course) and put the gas back in?

16. That would be at least a good start...

17. Check to see if the second stage condensing is done in walls of the fridge like mine. You might need a shell in tube condensor if it runs in the walls.

18. very nice clocks there opp on that 3.2, dare we see 5ghz soon?

19. fugger, your heat exchanger is in the bottom of your units box. Notice the thickness of yer interior wall on the bottom of the box?
Its this big funky coil of tube in tube. When i went to school at the revco factory we got to see those along with the entire esembly line. I think so-low is the only manufacturer that uses the design for wich you speak.

20. K, I will check it tomorrow. I was going to pull it apart but runs too good. I didnt see the second condensing unit in the base so I assumed the used it like conventional freezers and ran it in a layer of the freezer wall.

21. Fugger,

I'm no expert, so I can't speak to certain issues. I also find your temps suspect, but you have admitted that they are probably off. However, no one can deny your scores and you have done some wild stuff with that setup.
Congrats on your accomplishments! That's the bottom line!

Please incorporate some safety features into your cascade. Really man, that should not be ignored and should be done right away.

22. dudes right

23. Yeah, by "setup" I meant all his hardware, not just the cooling. Having access to some goodies that few others can lay their hands on doesn't hurt. Bottom line is he is keeping Xtreme in the limelight and that's a very good thing for the site!

24. 36 hours on cascade now, a few swap overs of hardware and its running so nice. Its getting a steel cover this friday.

25. Well, all temp controversy aside, the results speak for themselves, that's some damn fine stuff FUGGER.

And I'm with TheDude, get some safety measures on that puppy, would be a beehatch to lose it ll in some way.

But again, that's one hell of a fine piece of...work.

(Go on, admit it, you thought I was going to say ass.)

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