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Thread: European Union wants Windows without IE

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calmatory View Post
    Everything else such as?

    It can be, and it can't be - depending on distribution. ...and whenever one faces a problem, Google already has the solution and answer.
    Average computer user is lucky to turn on their computer and install programs from a DVD. Googling for an answer is done by the few who have a clue. You vastly over-estimate the average person's ability or desire to do anything on their computer. Ease of use for Aunt Edna is where MS has a huge advantage over Linux. And since Linux remains a bunch of competing distributions each with their own set of problems, MS appears as if they will retain that advantage for some time to come.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calmatory View Post
    Besides, the thing is not that "they bundle their own software", the thing is that they are a monopoly. For Americans this does not seem to be problem, dog eats dog etc.
    Yeah, America, the most capitalist Economy in the World, and we have no problem with monopolies

    Just think about how silly that statement is, before you start bashing America..

    How is Firefox(or anything else) supposed to compete when their competitor has clear headstart? Firefox can never gain such a high spread in desktop market since every Windows machine has IE built in. How is this competitive? Getting rid of the advantage would increase competition which would result in MS actually doing something new since Win95.
    The problem dude, is that you don't know what a REAL monopoly is.

    1) Msoft doesn't actively prevent consumers from getting other browsers.

    2) Msoft doesn't prevent other browsers from being installed on their O.S.

    3) Msoft even ALLOWS people to remove IE, Windows Media Player from the OS if they choose etc.

    Where's the monopoly in this eh?

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entity_Razer View Post
    ---> Start
    ---> Run
    >nslookup
    >ftp.mozilla.com
    >exit
    >ftp xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


    Thank you for flying Entity Airlines,
    We hope you found it a learning experience
    Code:
    C:\Users\>nslookup
    Default Server:  UnKnown
    Address:  192.168.1.1
    
    > server 208.67.222.222
    Default Server:  resolver1.opendns.com
    Address:  208.67.222.222
    
    > ftp.mozilla.com
    Server:  resolver1.opendns.com
    Address:  208.67.222.222
    
    Non-authoritative answer:
    Name:    ftp.mozilla.com
    Address:  208.69.36.132
    
    > exit
    
    C:\Users\>ftp 208.69.36.132
    > ftp: connect :Connection timed out
    ftp> quit
    Whoops! And what should all the users do if they encounter that?


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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calmatory View Post
    Windows Update?

    Wouldn't it be easy to download software from there? Firefox, IE, Chrome, paint, Paint .NET, GIMP, Abiword, Wordpad, OpenOffice, Winamp, WMP, VLC, Foobar etc in a same repository! Just check boxes and click a button and the Windows Update does the rest? What if a program has to be updated/there is new version available? Just click another button in the Windows Update and it updates all the installed software.

    Thats how it works with most Linux distributions. Though, there it is even easier.

    That would be way better than the current approach. Though, maintaining such a repository and making sure that everything works is a hassle, but if built with care it would work.

    I guess they could adopt some sort of system like that, but if you're going to call it Windows Update, you kind of have to guarantee that the product works on Windows (something which Microsoft does not do with most of what you listed). Well, they'll guarantee it for a fee that they can use to test it, but it's not their job to buy software licenses so they can test them for compatibility... it's the other way around. Linux makes this easy by not offering any guarantee (well, 'cept for Debian, but let's not get into that).
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speederlander View Post
    What "conclusion"? Say what's on your mind or don't waste the bandwidth.
    I was disputing your conclusion, or IMHO lack thereof "Most people DO use IE. IE is fine."...

    IE integration was never mission critical, unless by mission critical you mean crushing competition by any and all means available to what is known as a monopoly.

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  6. #106
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    its bs tbh , IE 8 is pretty good , If people want to use a different browser ten they just have to download it and install it.
    Whats next , It wont come with Windows media player because foobar , winamp , and Itunes.
    Its stupid.

  7. #107
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    Threads like these make me lool, 'EU sucks donkey-balls', 'Monopoly this, Monopoly that', 'Obama's gonna save the dolphins', blah, blah, blah........

    Windows without IE, shock bloody horror!! I mean, really....... who cares? Or are you Bill in disguise?

    Everyone wants a tweaked lean OS install, we rip the crap out of it just for benching and i can guarantee you that the majority on this forum use Firefox, so i'll ask again.... who cares!? lool.

    You know what, i'd love a copy of Windows with all the sh*t i never use not preinstalled. Sorry, i'll back up a bit. I'd love to have THE CHOICE of buying a copy of Windows with all the sh*t i never use not preinstalled. Happy days..... you get me? No big deal really is there.

    And for those wondering how on earth anyone could use the internet without a browser should really check out wget and learn to master their fear of the command line. Obviously those knowledgeable Linux users in this thread would have already known that Now theres an idea for MS.......

  8. #108
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    I guess a solution could be having a browser list in programfiles. So people could start go in there and download X browser. Just like Windows Update doesnt use IE anymore.

    However MS would have to fix sharepoint functionality with other browsers.
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  9. #109
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    This is retarded. Every OS needs to offer a web browser out of the box. Microsoft's IE is the default one for Windows. Monopoly? Windows is the most used OS out there, thus its default browser will be used the most too. That's not monopoly, FFS.

    The only thing that should be done is to put a big uninstall button for IE just in case the user doesn't want the default one.
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  10. #110
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    Someone ealier hit the nail on the head for me, simply expand on the N versions to satisfy EU conditions, undermarket the product and sit back happy while everyone still goes and buys the normal bloat version. We'd still get the choice and everyone can go home rich and play soggy biscuit.

  11. #111
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    This is really retarded. MS doesn't control the computer platform. Install whatever OS that will work on your PC that you want. IE is part of the Windows product. This just doesn't make sense.

  12. #112
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    Just change EU package to "Internet Explorer X (Microsoft Windows X included)".
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  13. #113
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    It seems that everyone forgets that not everyone knows how to use a computer. So the command prompt I think would be out of the deal because very few people even know how to get to that let alone a command that works in it. Secondly everyone saying they should give you the choice at the begining, why when they already got there own?? Third if you dont like IE just dont use it. Its not hurting you even when it is there.

    And instead of thinking how you normally do thinking like George Bush trying to work on a computer make it a little harder.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by del_fuego View Post
    And for those wondering how on earth anyone could use the internet without a browser should really check out wget and learn to master their fear of the command line. Obviously those knowledgeable Linux users in this thread would have already known that Now theres an idea for MS.......
    So the answer is to use Linux instead? Because XP doesn't have a command-line browser in it, nor does Vista to the best of my knowledge (though its new command line could, I haven't looked that closely at it. I mean, if you're going command line anyway, go *nix..).

    Incidentally, though I am proficient enough in Linux to use it as a daily OS and only terminal into my computer (and thus must daily "master my fear of the command line") *I* can see that a command-line solution is maybe the worst possible solution in terms of usability to the general population.
    Last edited by Serra; 01-22-2009 at 01:05 PM.
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    I dont get why other peoples products that are based off of (leaching) another persons product should even be a concern. Its kind of messed up that you can make something, and then be told you cant add more features because its not fair to the other leach companies that wanna use it. Were not talking about purposefully squelching competition here.

    It would be like the EU telling Valve that they cant release any mods with their games because its not fair to the people who wanna make a mod for the HL2 engine.

    Since the first thing you should do when installing is run windows update, whats next, they cant even have it on their suggested updates list because that still would make it easier to install for most then other browsers? (and almost the same as having it included if your someone who runs updates)

    Quote Originally Posted by Serra View Post
    Incidentally, though I am proficient enough in Linux to use it as a daily OS and only terminal into my computer (and thus must daily "master my fear of the command line") *I* can see that a command-line solution is maybe the worst possible solution in terms of usability to the general population.
    It along with having to compile most software is THE reason linux could Never become a mainstream OS for the general public, anyone who uses linux knows this.
    Last edited by Zaskar; 01-22-2009 at 01:06 PM.
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  16. #116
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    Yeah yeah yeah...just send them a DOS version and tell them they can upgrade it...for $100 per module of code. I bet they'll straighten their ass up then.
    Last edited by T_Flight; 01-22-2009 at 01:27 PM.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefy22 View Post
    I was disputing your conclusion, or IMHO lack thereof "Most people DO use IE. IE is fine."...
    Most people DO use IE. Do you dispute that?
    Most people never know the difference. It works fine for them. Do you dispute that? What does Uncle Joe need that's in firefox to make his scanning of cnn.com more dynamic?

    If you dispute either, then provide details.
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by del_fuego View Post
    And for those wondering how on earth anyone could use the internet without a browser should really check out wget and learn to master their fear of the command line. Obviously those knowledgeable Linux users in this thread would have already known that Now theres an idea for MS.......
    Yes, make it so 95% of their user base has to call a help line. There's a great idea for MS...
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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speederlander View Post
    Most people DO use IE. Do you dispute that?
    Most people never know the difference. It works fine for them. Do you dispute that? What does Uncle Joe need that's in firefox to make his scanning of cnn.com more dynamic?

    If you dispute either, then provide details.
    I do not dispute that most people use IE or that it works fine for them... Those statements prove nothing and mean absolutely nothing unless put into proper context. However you seem content to not dig further so I'll post the relevant info for you, thus providing context...

    IV.

    THE MIDDLEWARE THREATS


    68. Middleware technologies, as previously noted, have the potential to weaken the applications barrier to entry. Microsoft was apprehensive that the APIs exposed by middleware technologies would attract so much developer interest, and would become so numerous and varied, that there would arise a substantial and growing number of full-featured applications that relied largely, or even wholly, on middleware APIs. The applications relying largely on middleware APIs would potentially be relatively easy to port from one operating system to another. The applications relying exclusively on middleware APIs would run, as written, on any operating system hosting the requisite middleware. So the more popular middleware became and the more APIs it exposed, the more the positive feedback loop that sustains the applications barrier to entry would dissipate. Microsoft was concerned with middleware as a category of software; each type of middleware contributed to the threat posed by the entire category. At the same time, Microsoft focused its antipathy on two incarnations of middleware that, working together, had the potential to weaken the applications barrier severely without the assistance of any other middleware. These were Netscape's Web browser and Sun's implementation of the Java technologies.

    1. The Netscape Web browser

    69. Netscape Navigator possesses three key middleware attributes that endow it with the potential to diminish the applications barrier to entry. First, in contrast to non-Microsoft, Intel-compatible PC operating systems, which few users would want to use on the same PC systems that carry their copies of Windows, a browser can gain widespread use based on its value as a complement to Windows. Second, because Navigator exposes a set (albeit a limited one) of APIs, it can serve as a platform for other software used by consumers. A browser product is particularly well positioned to serve as a platform for network-centric applications that run in association with Web pages. Finally, Navigator has been ported to more than fifteen different operating systems. Thus, if a developer writes an application that relies solely on the APIs exposed by Navigator, that application will, without any porting, run on many different operating systems.

    70. Adding to Navigator's potential to weaken the applications barrier to entry is the fact that the Internet has become both a major inducement for consumers to buy PCs for the first time and a major occupier of the time and attention of current PCs users. For any firm looking to turn its browser product into an applications platform such to rival Windows, the intense consumer interest in all things Internet-related is a great boon.

    71. Microsoft knew in the fall of 1994 that Netscape was developing versions of a Web browser to run on different operating systems. It did not yet know, however, that Netscape would employ Navigator to generate revenue directly, much less that the product would evolve in such a way as to threaten Microsoft. In fact, in late December 1994, Netscape's chairman and chief executive officer ("CEO"), Jim Clark, told a Microsoft executive that the focus of Netscape's business would be applications running on servers and that Netscape did not intend to succeed at Microsoft's expense.

    72. As soon as Netscape released Navigator on December 15, 1994, the product began to enjoy dramatic acceptance by the public; shortly after its release, consumers were already using Navigator far more than any other browser product. This alarmed Microsoft, which feared that Navigator's enthusiastic reception could embolden Netscape to develop Navigator into an alternative platform for applications development. In late May 1995, Bill Gates, the chairman and CEO of Microsoft, sent a memorandum*PDF* entitled "The Internet Tidal Wave*HTML*" to Microsoft's executives describing Netscape as a "new competitor ‘born' on the Internet." He warned his colleagues within Microsoft that Netscape was "pursuing a multi-platform strategy where they move the key API into the client to commoditize the underlying operating system." By the late spring of 1995, the executives responsible for setting Microsoft's corporate strategy were deeply concerned that Netscape was moving its business in a direction that could diminish the applications barrier to entry...

    Withholding Crucial Technical Information


    90. Microsoft knew that Netscape needed certain critical technical information and assistance in order to complete its Windows 95 version of Navigator in time for the retail release of Windows 95. Indeed, Netscape executives had made a point of requesting this information, especially the so-called Remote Network Access ("RNA") API, at the June 21 meeting. As was discussed above, the Microsoft representatives at the meeting had responded that the haste with which Netscape received the desired technical information would depend on whether Netscape entered the so-called "special relationship" with Microsoft. Specifically, Microsoft representative J. Allard had told Barksdale that the way in which the two companies concluded the meeting would determine whether Netscape received the RNA API immediately or in three months.

    91. Although Netscape declined the special relationship with Microsoft, its executives continued, over the weeks following the June 21 meeting, to plead for the RNA API. Despite Netscape's persistence, Microsoft did not release the API to Netscape until late October, i.e., as Allard had warned, more than three months later. The delay in turn forced Netscape to postpone the release of its Windows 95 browser until substantially after the release of Windows 95 (and Internet Explorer) in August 1995. As a result, Netscape was excluded from most of the holiday selling season.

    92. Microsoft similarly withheld a scripting tool that Netscape needed to make its browser compatible with certain dial-up ISPs. Microsoft had licensed the tool freely to ISPs that wanted it, and in fact had cooperated with Netscape in drafting a license agreement that, by mid- July 1996, needed only to be signed by an authorized Microsoft executive to go into effect. There the process halted, however. In mid-August, a Microsoft representative informed Netscape that senior executives at Microsoft had decided to link the grant of the license to the resolution of all open issues between the companies. Netscape never received a license to the scripting tool, and as a result, was unable to do business with certain ISPs for a time.

    I. The Success of Microsoft's Effort to Protect the Applications Barrier to Entry from the Threat Posed by Navigator

    377. In late 1995 and early 1996, Navigator seemed well on its way to becoming the standard software for browsing the Web. Within three years, however, Microsoft had successfully denied Navigator that status, and had thereby forestalled a serious potential threat to the applications barrier to entry. Indeed, Microsoft's Kumar Mehta felt comfortable expressing to Brad Chase in February 1998 his "PERSONAL opinion" that "the browser battle is close to over." Mehta continued: "We set out on this mission 2 years ago to not let netscape dictate standards and control the browser api's [sic]. All evidence today says they don't."
    Long long story short, most people use IE because MS employed monopolistic tactics(again read above and even more @ link) and the fact that it works fine is hardly consolation. But please feel free to provide details if you dispute that.


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  20. #120
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    Internet Explorer wants Windows without EU

  21. #121
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    i dont really see the problem here. I'm not forced to use IE on a new install, yes, its the first browser there, but no one is forcing you to use it. IE's market share has been dropping lately anyways, since more and more people are finally using other browsers.

  22. #122
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    It's their product take it or leave it. Either way I like Windows and I am going to buy Windows till they piss me off which they have not done yet. Windows is their OS and IE is their browser. So they put both into one pack, smart in my books. Same reason Mac includes Safari with their OS, because it is their product and they can make it how they like.
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calmatory View Post
    Do you understand what word monopoly means? Can you understand how Microsoft and monopoly are related?

    There has to be certain restrictions set for a company having a monopoly position. That is, chance for others to catch up. Microsoft already locks people to their own software too tightly and people don't like this. But what can they do? Nothing. Why? Monopoly.

    Microsoft builds it's business over a platform which prevents competition against them. Basically whatever they do, they do it to distinguish competition around them. This is not good for other companies, nor for consumers.
    I agree. I like to game on my pc and how can I do that without DirectX? Do you really think that these game developers arent getting some deal to use DX over OpenGL?

  24. #124
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    I'd love it if they got IE removed from the os. I hate all those programs that use IE only calls and avoid what I have set as the default internet browser. I wouldn't want them to include other browsers is the OS because I doubt Microsoft would be honest enough to include a current version. windows 3.11 and the first version of windows 95 didn't have any web browsers you had to install them yourself.


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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefy22 View Post
    Long long story short, most people use IE because MS employed monopolistic tactics(again read above and even more @ link) and the fact that it works fine is hardly consolation. But please feel free to provide details if you dispute that.
    Here's a detail. Whatever was bundled with Windows, most people will use. Why? Because they don't care. It's all the same to them. Forcing them to choose when they don't know jack about the choices gains them what? The people who KNOW are already FREE TO CHOOSE. They can switch whenever they want. But you act like the unwashed masses are somehow forced against their will to use IE. That's bull. The masses just want something that works and they don't want to go looking for it.
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