my run of the mill HIS 4870 does 860 gaming stable without voltmods lol, sadly it doesnt really like volts all that much
my run of the mill HIS 4870 does 860 gaming stable without voltmods lol, sadly it doesnt really like volts all that much
This thread is actually painful to read. I've read talk of respins, low yeailds, high yeilds, bad OC's, good OC's, and not one of those posts have any linkage at all...not one.
This is another thread based on a rumor that took off again on a wild tangeant of half baked guesses.
Nobody even knows if there will be a refresh of either companies offerings. There is no date, no codenames, no branding, no press releases from either company about either of these supposed refreshes. How we got from a rumor to respins is beyond me when nobody even knows if any of this stuff ever existed.
In closing, I guess I finished reading this thread out of the pure shock value at what I was witnessing.
probs tru I'll give you that, the mosr useful part of this thread was the gtx 260 OC vs 4870 oc comparison
Here's a pretty major, but pretty common fallacy. Basically AMD has been continually advertising this "ace in the back pocket" story so that people believe that enabling this feature will magically boost performance a bunch.Originally Posted by Klarko
All this sideport does is give a faster transport between GPUs for resources that get transferred between GPUs in AFR mode.
What does that mean? It means that the cost of transfers goes lower, but that they still exist.
Now while all that sounds great and efficient, there's one part they're failing to tell you: most major games already have certain types of unnecessary transfers between GPUs disabled via the Crossfire (or SLI) profile, to minimize the the amount of resource stalling, or they are coded out in the application by the developer themselves (if they made the game with multi-gpu in mind).
So if most game devs have removed transfers from the app-side, and most of the app profiles for Crossfire have eliminated unnecessary transfers, there is little to no gain from speeding up non-existent or non-costly transfers in existing profiled applications.
The only justification for this feature is to increase the likelihood that plain AFR (without special transfer eliminating considerations) will work much faster without the intervention of a profile, because you're driving the transfers that *do* still exist in an un-profiled application towards 0 performance-cost. That still doesn't make them free, and will never be faster than the current method of eliminating the transfers outright.
My point is I think it's more of a "Crossfire scaling compatibility with new titles which we haven't profiled for Crossfire yet" feature.
Last edited by Sr7; 11-08-2008 at 12:24 AM.
Looks like the GPU will be the last component I get on my new computer, lol, in the mean time, I'll either be using the 8800GT in this system, or keep the 7900GS in it..depending on if I re-allocate my current system upstairs and attempt to keep it folding 24/7
Current System:
eVGA 680i SLi "A2" P30 BIOS
intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 (currently at stock)
OCZ ReaperX 4GB DDR2 1000 (running at DDR2 800 Speeds with cas4)
320GB Seagate 7200.10
XFX 8800GT XXX 512MB (stock clocks)
auzentech X-Fi Prelude
PC Power and Cooling Silencer 750 Quad Copper
Win XP Pro
Interesting. What kind of transfers usually happen but are unnecessary?
I certainly hope it won't be late, competition is VERY IMPORTANT to us consumers, especially in trying times like this. I want coldwar like competition beetween the two graphic IHVs, so we can enjoy the best pricing and product advancement/innovation.
I want some WW1 style trench warfare. I wanna see bodies flying and flesh torn from the bone. I want Nvidia to use the mustard gas, and I wanna see ATI release The Red Baron, Manfred von friggin' Richthofen! Goddammit, I want WAR and a $20 GTX290! Sieg heil!
For my part I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of the stars makes me dream.
.
.
Sometimes developers will code a game under the assumption of 1 GPU being present, and as a result they can create what are called "interframe dependencies"
I just googled and found this:
http://developer.amd.com/media/gpu_a..._CrossFire.pdf
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3271Eliminate inter-frame dependencies
Since the AFR mode is the most efficient we recommend aiming for your application to work well with this mode. To achieve this you should try to reduce inter-frame dependencies. A common cause of an inter-frame dependency is when the result in a render target is reused in the next frame. This can be because of light-trail or motion blur effects or simply that the application as an optimization doesn’t update the render target every frame. For this to work the driver would have to copy the render target over to the other GPU so that it would have the data for rendering the next frame. Secondly, it would mean that the other GPU can’t render using this render target until the first GPU is done rendering to it and the copy has taken place, meaning that a costly synchronization may take place.
Basically, in the instance mentioned above, where a developer codes with only 1 GPU in mind, they can safely assume/rely that whatever was in the framebuffer at the start of processing the newest frame was data from the previous frame. Sometimes developers don't want to re-render every pixel if it hasn't changed, so they render only what they need and then present it, or sometimes they want to intentionally re-use previous frames to composite them for some kind of blur effect, under the assumption that the contents of the previous frame are still there in the same GPUs framebuffer.However, NVIDIA has managed to get Crysis to scale across all four GPUs despite the interframe dependencies that make it so difficult.
As you can imagine, in a multi-gpu alternate frame rendering case (AFR) this assumption is not safe, because the previous frame was rendered on another GPU, in a completely different set of memory. So this presents the dilemma.. do you transfer the requested data from the other GPU, or do you forget about it?
If you transfer, you can slow down your frametimes because you're waiting on the synchronization of this resource. If you forget about the data and do not transfer, you risk corruption.
Without advance knowledge of what the application is doing, and in this world of thousands of possible render loop permutations/techniques, there is no easy way/algorithm for a video driver to know if the developer implicitly wants the data to be read from the previous frame, or if they don't really care for it to be transferred because the particular data that would be transferred does not end up in the final image (off screen render-target or something). So to avoid corruption, video drivers often take the conservative route by default and transfer the resource to avoid corruption, even if it comes at the cost of multi-gpu scaling.
The multi-gpu profiles that ATI and NVIDIA add to make a game scale are basically ways of telling the driver "we looked at this specific game and we know for a fact no corruption comes about from disabling transfers x and y, so if this type of resource comes up as an inter-frame requested resource, do not send it to the other GPU", which often helps performance because you're not waiting on transfers.
Don't forget there are also other things that cause poor scaling like CPU synchronization (something in the loop which causes some kind of delay or waiting, or an application throttling how many frames they're willing to queue up for the GPUs), and an application being simply CPU-bound.
Last edited by Sr7; 11-08-2008 at 02:18 AM.
Cherry picked chips? Prove that! No need to cherry picked chips for 25Mhz overclock
Most expensive 4870? Bull!
http://www.clubic.com/comparer-prix/...HD%204870.html
Regular 4870 512 200€
Gainward 4870 GS 512 235€
Palit 4870 Sonic 512 225€
Powercolor 4870 PCS+ 1Go 250€
Gainward 4870 GS 1Go 260€
http://www.clubic.com/comparer-prix/...GTX%20260.html
Less expensive 260GTX 240€
Less expensive 260GTX 216 255€
AMD Phenom II X2 550@Phenom II X4 B50
MSI 890GXM-G65
Corsair CMX4GX3M2A1600C9 2x2GB
Sapphire HD 6950 2GB
Your own evidence proves me correct.Cherry picked chips? Prove that! No need to cherry picked chips for 25Mhz overclock
Most expensive 4870? Bull
http://www.clubic.com/comparer-prix/...HD%204870.html
Regular 4870 512 200€
Gainward 4870 GS 512 235€
Palit 4870 Sonic 512 225€
Powercolor 4870 PCS+ 1Go 250€
Gainward 4870 GS 1Go 260€
http://www.clubic.com/comparer-prix/...GTX%20260.html
Less expensive 260GTX 240€
Less expensive 260GTX 216 255€
Before you get to the gainward golden sample in order of increasing price, you go through the following names,
OEM
Sapphire
Powercolour PCS+
Club 3d
Palit sonic 3d
connect 3d
Regular gainward
Regular powercolour
Gigabyte
Asus extreme
Overclocked club3d
MSI overclocked
Then finally the gainward golden sample.
Then a regular MSI
and then you into the 1gb 4870 which are supposed to be more expensive because they have more video memory.
Anything else that is more expensive and a 512 is only sold at a single retailer and is thus a bad representation of the actual price. E.g if you were going to try to find a pentium 4 northwood right now, you would only find it at a couple retailers and it would be priced at a cost much higher than its actual worth. It obvious that a overclocked MSI should be more expensive than a non overclocked one.
Gainward Golden samples are cherry picked according to gainward, I don't need any proof because gainward themselves say they cherry picked these chips. That was the starting philosophy of the golden sample editions. Gainward started the whole high binning thing with the golden sample, they kind of invented it and this was started years ago. There is a reason they are called golden samples.
I've got a bone stock Sapphire 4870X2. 750/900 stock clocks. So far i've tested up to 825/1000.
there are good cards and bad cards. pre-overclocked cards are generally nothing special.
edit - cherry picking has been done for a lot longer than gainward has even been a company.
Last edited by STEvil; 11-08-2008 at 04:38 AM.
All along the watchtower the watchmen watch the eternal return.
Hmmm.... funny because I remember an interview with an AMD/ATi engineer specifically stating that the side-port wasn't seening enough of a performance boost to actually use it, though it slightly increased min FPS.
That is what XS news is about. Rumors are how we learn about the upcoming releases, however far off they may be. Learn to read between the lines and hear everything, you might slowly start piecing stuff together.This thread is actually painful to read. I've read talk of respins, low yeailds, high yeilds, bad OC's, good OC's, and not one of those posts have any linkage at all...not one.
This is another thread based on a rumor that took off again on a wild tangeant of half baked guesses.
Nobody even knows if there will be a refresh of either companies offerings. There is no date, no codenames, no branding, no press releases from either company about either of these supposed refreshes. How we got from a rumor to respins is beyond me when nobody even knows if any of this stuff ever existed.
In closing, I guess I finished reading this thread out of the pure shock value at what I was witnessing.
Originally Posted by motown_steve
Every genocide that was committed during the 20th century has been preceded by the disarmament of the target population. Once the government outlaws your guns your life becomes a luxury afforded to you by the state. You become a tool to benefit the state. Should you cease to benefit the state or even worse become an annoyance or even a hindrance to the state then your life becomes more trouble than it is worth.
Once the government outlaws your guns your life is forfeit. You're already dead, it's just a question of when they are going to get around to you.
Most misleading title and beginning paragraph ever? It's just speculation!!! WTF!!! Not even a rumor!
Let me point you towards my post. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...9&postcount=14This thread is actually painful to read. I've read talk of respins, low yeailds, high yeilds, bad OC's, good OC's, and not one of those posts have any linkage at all...not one.
This is another thread based on a rumor that took off again on a wild tangeant of half baked guesses.
Nobody even knows if there will be a refresh of either companies offerings. There is no date, no codenames, no branding, no press releases from either company about either of these supposed refreshes. How we got from a rumor to respins is beyond me when nobody even knows if any of this stuff ever existed.
In closing, I guess I finished reading this thread out of the pure shock value at what I was witnessing.
Just for the record......I have and continue to test or have information dating all the way back to my work with ATI on grouper and mantaThose that are/were participating members back then would consider me a reliable source without much more than my say so. Giving up my source to the general public however is out of the question, has been and always will be...Unfortunately at this point in time I however no longer get hands on with hardware, see sig.......Causes a conflict of interest. I may be playing with AMD/ATI again in the very near future......
That said there will be a refresh ( little dragon ), and it will be released late Q1 09 whether paper or actual availability I am not sure of atm...At this point in time lower power consumption would be what to expect and not so much in performance/clocks department. I can not/will not confirm anything else at this point in time.
Last edited by chew*; 11-08-2008 at 08:49 AM.
heatware chew*
I've got no strings to hold me down.
To make me fret, or make me frown.
I had strings but now I'm free.
There are no strings on me
You are absolutely correct, the golden samples pre-overclock is so minimal that we do not understand why the site was comparing it to a super-overclocked GTX-260 that most people cannot get. I mean, most 260's cannot go any higher than 700 MHz.
Oh well, the golden sample mini-overclock should have been overclocked using the drivers (ATT, Rivatuner, or Catalyst--it doesnt matter which one). Many get their 4870's to at least 800 MHz.
--two awesome rigs, wildly customized with
5.1 Sony speakers, Stereo 3D, UV Tourmaline Confexia, Flame Bl00dr4g3 Fatal1ty
--SONY GDM-FW900 24" widescreen CRT, overclocked to:
2560x1600 resolution at 68Hz!(from 2304x1440@80Hz)
Updated List of Video Card GPU Voodoopower Ratings!!!!!
My evidence just prove that 4870 oc with improve cooling are less expensive than 260GTX even 192. That the point! Gainward 4870 GS in particular is less expensive than 260GTX. So deny this review because of 4870 GS price it's stupid.
4870 GS is cherry picked? Ok, now you know the card we have to buy
AMD Phenom II X2 550@Phenom II X4 B50
MSI 890GXM-G65
Corsair CMX4GX3M2A1600C9 2x2GB
Sapphire HD 6950 2GB
THANK YOU!
CHARMINGget your Weaties this morning I see
SuperMicro X8SAX
Xeon 5620
12GB - Crucial ECC DDR3 1333
Intel 520 180GB Cherryville
Areca 1231ML ~ 2~ 250GB Seagate ES.2 ~ Raid 0 ~ 4~ Hitachi 5K3000 2TB ~ Raid 6 ~
dumb question but some may find it useful information,
what is the industry accepted definition of a "refresh" in terms of a gpu card ?
I don't think there is any common understood rule, but in my opinion, I'd say a refresh would be anything short of an architectural shift, or at the very least, a major GPU core revision.
For my part I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of the stars makes me dream.
I never said anything about the 4870 vs gtx 260 in regards to price difference. You are not reading me properly, you are not putting words in your head when you are reading my post or something.My evidence just prove that 4870 oc with improve cooling are less expensive than 260GTX even 192. That the point! Gainward 4870 GS in particular is less expensive than 260GTX. So deny this review because of 4870 GS price it's stupid.
4870 GS is cherry picked? Ok, now you know the card we have to buy
In the first place, I said you can't compare a golden sample overclock to a regular overclock, which you mentioned in your original post of being 835/1160 for the core/memory clock. This is what my post was directing at. You are being really really rude with the
You are really trying to be a smarta$$ in all your post. I have responded with no attitude compared to you.
Lets look at the original argument.
Did you not mention the overclock of the 4870 GS being 835, 1160. Yes you did, and I said you cannot take this as what any run of the mill 4870 will achieve because Golden sample are binned higher(according to gainward) and this particular model does not have a reference cooler, but a much better performing non reference cooler. As a result of these features the Gainward GS cost more.
In my last response before this one, I simply said you proved the 4870 Golden sample was among the most expensive 4870 which it is when you compare it to models which have the same amount of video memory.
I said in my original post the gainward 4870 GS was the most expensive 4870. Then you proceed to say BullS#*4. And provide evidence that shows it is among the most expensive 4870 512 editions(which was not your intentions obviously).
I simply pointed this out this.
Now you say it evidence that shows the 4870 is cheaper than the gtx 260.
One question, if you were debating with me (you had to, you quoted me)
Where did I say anything about the gtx 260? Nowhere.Zilch. So how is your most recent post valid anymore against the original debate which was the 4870 was among the most expensive 4870s and because of the added feature cannot be taken as a regular 4870 overclock. It's only provides evidence in favor of me because I mention nothing of the gtx 260. We were debating the overclock of the 4870 and the price of it compared to other 4870's.
I was not arguing about the gtx 260 at all(by the way, the cheapest gtx 260 in north american is cheaper than the cheapest 4870 on newegg200 vs 220. I only mention this because of your obvious love of AMD/ATI.)
Basically your original intention when you were arguing against me was to prove that the golden sample 4870 was not among the most expensive 4870s(which it is in reality). If your original argument argument against me was to compare this pricing to the gtx 260, this is a phantom arguement because I didn't mention anything about the gtx 260 at all.
However in the end, your evidence only proves my original point, which I hope I do not have to repeat again.
Last edited by tajoh111; 11-09-2008 at 03:04 AM.
^
tl, np, dr;
Geez. Stop making ****ton long posts that have no substance at all.
The pre-overclock of that Golden Sample is actually only 775 MHz, a measly 25 MHz increase. That's why the site's benchmarks made it look so bad to the UBER-OVERCLOCKED GT200.I never said anything about the 4870 vs gtx 260 in regards to price difference. You are not reading me properly, you are not putting words in your head when you are reading my post or something.
In the first place, I said you can't compare a golden sample overclock to a regular overclock, which you mentioned in your original post of being 835/1160 for the core/memory clock. This is what my post was directing at. You are being really really rude with the
You are really trying to be a smarta$$ in all your post. I have responded with no attitude compared to you.
Lets look at the original argument.
Did you not mention the overclock of the 4870 GS being 835, 1160. Yes you did, and I said you cannot take this as what any run of the mill 4870 will achieve because Golden sample are binned higher(according to gainward) and this particular model does not have a reference cooler, but a much better performing non reference cooler. As a result of these features the Gainward GS cost more.
In my last response before this one, I simply said you proved the 4870 Golden sample was among the most expensive 4870 which it is when you compare it to models which have the same amount of video memory.
I said in my original post the gainward 4870 GS was the most expensive 4870. Then you proceed to say BullS#*4. And provide evidence that shows it is among the most expensive 4870 512 editions(which was not your intentions obviously).
I simply pointed this out this.
Now you say it evidence that shows the 4870 is cheaper than the gtx 260.
One question, if you were debating with me (you had to, you quoted me)
Where did I say anything about the gtx 260? Nowhere.Zilch. So how is your most recent post valid anymore against the original debate which was the 4870 was among the most expensive 4870s and because of the added feature cannot be taken as a regular 4870 overclock. It's only provides evidence in favor of me because I mention nothing of the gtx 260. We were debating the overclock of the 4870 and the price of it compared to other 4870's.
I was not arguing about the gtx 260 at all(by the way, the cheapest gtx 260 in north american is cheaper than the cheapest 4870 on newegg200 vs 220. I only mention this because of your obvious love of AMD/ATI.)
Basically your original intention when you were arguing against me was to prove that the golden sample 4870 was not among the most expensive 4870s(which it is in reality). If your original argument argument against me was to compare this pricing to the gtx 260, this is a phantom arguement because I didn't mention anything about the gtx 260 at all.
However in the end, your evidence only proves my original point, which I hope I do not have to repeat again.
--two awesome rigs, wildly customized with
5.1 Sony speakers, Stereo 3D, UV Tourmaline Confexia, Flame Bl00dr4g3 Fatal1ty
--SONY GDM-FW900 24" widescreen CRT, overclocked to:
2560x1600 resolution at 68Hz!(from 2304x1440@80Hz)
Updated List of Video Card GPU Voodoopower Ratings!!!!!
I have the 1GB GS edition, and actually is pretty well made. With the dual slot cooling and set to 63%, its still silent and idling at 39C and 56C under load.
As for the overclock, there is a normal and turbo switch near the DVI. I set it to turbo mode and set 24/7 830/1100 and its stable without any artifacts. For bench i can go up to 860/1150.
As for price, i bought it for actually quite a bargain, 237€.
My PC
Collecting dust....
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks