Nvidia, AMD accused of conspiracy to keep graphics pricing high

[cky2k6]

http://theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36258
I'm not liking this one bit, as suing the pants off ati/nvidia will not bring any positive changes that werent already happening. intel is getting back in the stand alone game, so the monopoly will surely take a hit, and although im sure they do try to keep the prices high, i dont see ati or nvidia making extraordinary profits on their products. if this crap goes through, i dont think the r&d budget will remain too high... instead of stiffling development on the gpu front, why dont the doj pursue exxon? oh right, i forgot, the government is in bed with them.

[Kanavit]

haha, i like this theory. but to be honest, it's just ludicrous that high -end graphics now retails at $499-$599. only reason why i'm still using my trusty old video card setup now. I won't pay more than $399 for one high-end card anymore.

[cky2k6]

some people do though, and its because of them that the prices are high, if there are people willing to pay, they will sell them at that price. its not like if this lawsuit goes through that we're gonna start seeing jumps like from the 7900gtx to the 8800gtx for only 399 for the highest performing card. if theyre gonna charge us less, theyre gonna do less... so id rather see them battle it out at the top, and have the mid range cards recieve the trickle down effect. this is just a money-grabbing scheme that will hurt us more than ati/nvidia in the long run.

[VulgarHandle]

welcome to a free market, if they will pay, they will charge

don't wanna pay? don't

[gOJDO]

it is from the_INQ...

[cky2k6]

ati and nvidia did get subpoenas, thats not just inquirer rumor, and this makes sense. why else would they get subpoenad? theres also the chance that its related to the memory makers, as ati and nvidia do have close relations with samsung/infeneon, but i suspect that this is probably the reason for the subpoenas. http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/V...114493,00.html http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_37789.html

[kemist]

haha, i like this theory. but to be honest, it's just ludicrous that high -end graphics now retails at $499-$599. only reason why i'm still using my trusty old video card setup now. I won't pay more than $399 for one high-end card anymore.

Contrast this with a 1000$ processor, which is about 10x more ludicrous given they can generally sell the same thing at 100$ and still make a good profit.

With a video card at least your price is somewhat approaching your BOM considering you are paying for a pcb, large amounts of memory, a die thats larger than those $1000 processors, voltage regulators, etc. You also see much more drastic performance improvements with high end video cards compared to low end video cards than you do for high/low processors.

Realistically we'd all like to pay less, but the price of processors is much more ludicrous IMO.

[M.Beier]

I belive its true..

It seems quite obvious that if not caught Nvidia & ATI would make a cartel, eventhough they are competetors.. - The marketform is a duopol, or nearly, its a differentiated oligopol, with ATI & NVIDIA as only firms that makes graphic cards for gaming usage..
So yeah, ofcause it can be true..

And those GFX prices, man, they're FAR FETCH!!
- one cant purchase a high-end gfx product at sub-750$ in Denmark!!

- Back in the GF4, and 9700/9800pro days, they were actually buyable..

[red]

There is a pretty legit PDF link attached..

[Kobalt]

Contrast this with a 1000$ processor, which is about 10x more ludicrous given they can generally sell the same thing at 100$ and still make a good profit.

You have no clue about business or the stock market...

[situman]

High development costs are self imposed by GPU makers. No one said you have to refresh your gpu every six months. Nothing wrong with releasing a gpu that's two to three times faster than the curent generation AFTER a year and half and sell it for $350 or so.

[xenolith]

Originally Posted by kemist
Contrast this with a 1000$ processor, which is about 10x more ludicrous given they can generally sell the same thing at 100$ and still make a good profit.

You have no clue about business or the stock market...

You beat me to it.

With this same logic, Microsoft could sell their latest OS for $2 and still make tons of money. After all, it only cost them about $1 for the disk, processing, and packaging costs, and they still would be making a 100% profit.

I shouldn't laugh. I've seen too many people make this kind of argument. It's sad really.

[STEvil]

considering a CPU takes about $22/die on a wafer to make....

Well, thats actually old numbers from the P4/XP days, but if its gone up substantially the market would be hurting. It isnt, so probably hasnt changed a lot.

[kemist]

You beat me to it.

With this same logic, Microsoft could sell their latest OS for $2 and still make tons of money. After all, it only cost them about $1 for the disk, processing, and packaging costs, and they still would be making a 100% profit.

I shouldn't laugh. I've seen too many people make this kind of argument. It's sad really.

Yup you guys are geniuses Nvidia/DAMMIT both have packaging, marketing, R&D, indirectly fund TSMC's Fab upgrades, have much shorter design cycles, etc. Yet right now you can get a 7950gx2 for $425, that includes 1gb of fast GDDR2, 2 dice, 2 large pcbs, voltage regulation,heatsinks etc.

in contrast intel is selling conroe cores with same die size and packaging as their recent flagship X6800 as E6300's for $180 retail. Wonder what their good buddies the Tier 1 distributors get them for? But they arent making any profit are they? None at all right? Oh wait the majority of Intel's profit comes from the volume of the low end and they sell very small amounts of X6800? Oh and on top of that their design cycles are much longer than graphics companies. But the X6800 at $1000 isnt ludicrous even though the performance increase compared to the low end is very small and the production costs are the same. Really it isnt. Right.

Look at intel's revenues then look at what percentage of that the x6800 makes up. Like i said high end processor prices are ludicrous compared to high end video cards.

P.S. none of my comments have to do with how intel runs their business, or how they deal with the stock market, obviously they want to price at what the market will bear. i'm talking from an enthusiasts point of view on price/performance and costs of materials for each product.

[gn0s1s]

You beat me to it.

With this same logic, Microsoft could sell their latest OS for $2 and still make tons of money. After all, it only cost them about $1 for the disk, processing, and packaging costs, and they still would be making a 100% profit.

I shouldn't laugh. I've seen too many people make this kind of argument. It's sad really.

I didn't see that he missed anything.... he was pointing out that the corporate mandate to be only accountable to shareholders profit at any cost is what causes these pricing attrocities... much like most of the worlds problems.

[xenolith]

I didn't see that he missed anything.... he was pointing out that the corporate mandate to be only accountable to shareholders profit at any cost is what causes these pricing attrocities... much like most of the worlds problems.

Oh, then thank you for the education. So we're all victims to big silicon, like Nvidia, ATI/AMD, Intel... like all corporations in general which are solely accountable only to shareholders ... which are the cause of most of the world's problems... like global warming and wars... I see...

...

[blink hi]

instead of stiffling development on the gpu front, why dont the doj pursue exxon? oh right, i forgot, the government is in bed with them.

contrary to popular belief, big oil companies usually only hang around 10% profit margins.. as opposed to google, with 30%...

edit: and stifling the "gpu front" has much less impact on, say, the economy of the country as a whole than trying to punish gigantor operators it still maintains the image of the govt cracking down on unfair trade practices. except its own of course

I didn't see that he missed anything.... he was pointing out that the corporate mandate to be only accountable to shareholders profit at any cost is what causes these pricing attrocities... much like most of the worlds problems.

profit is what drives progress. if i produce soemthing and am forced to sell it at cost or just above cost, i make no money and can't go on to make anything else. yes, they are greedy, but so are you. when you sell an old piece of hardware, you don't sell it just above shipping cost, you try to sell it as close to what you paid for it as possible. intel had to pay for r&d to get a dependable and efficient process for producing 65nm features. they pass that cost on to the consumer. don't like it? don't consume.

[onewingedangel]

The lawsuit seems stupid - both ati and nvidia offer gpus at every conceivable pricepoint, so the argument that prices are artificially high would be ludicrous. The highest end graphics are being priced higher because people are willing to pay more - and in return the extra profit goes into r+d and allows product refreshes every six months or so. All that extra r+d benefits everyone from the high end down to entry level.

Personally i wouldn't pay more than £200 for a graphics card, because I'd rather be a year behind the absolute leader in peformance (sometimes the difference isn't even that great), and pay half as much for the card, sell that card when I upgrade down the line to another mid range card more powerful than the highest end was at the time of the original purchase happy in the knowledge that I have a faster gpu that cost me less than the depreciation on the highest end models.

[DilTech]

The lawsuit seems stupid - both ati and nvidia offer gpus at every conceivable pricepoint, so the argument that prices are artificially high would be ludicrous. The highest end graphics are being priced higher because people are willing to pay more - and in return the extra profit goes into r+d and allows product refreshes every six months or so. All that extra r+d benefits everyone from the high end down to entry level.

The bolded statement is exactly why this lawsuit is for real...

Pricing higher merely because people are willing to pay more is a form of price fixing, and is against the law. This isn't a supply and demand issue, as there's plenty of high end cards as of late.

I think the real one that caught the DOJ's attention was NVidia releasing the 7900GTX, which was noted to be much cheaper to produce than the x1900xtx, but at the same time they charged the same amount or more for the GTX. If they were trying to really compete on price NVidia could've drastically undercut ATi with the GTX, we all know it, but instead they charged the same as ATi.

Now mind you, I did buy a 8800GTX, but I see what their case is, and it is legit.

[djgandy]

Well lets all file suits against Ferrari because their cars are too expensive. I mean they are priced high because people are willing to pay that

If you want the best, you pay for it, or.....use American culture and sue for it.

[M.Beier]

Cartel is illigal in most contries in the world, and thats what they're being accused of.. Right?

[DilTech]

Well lets all file suits against Ferrari because their cars are too expensive. I mean they are priced high because people are willing to pay that

If you want the best, you pay for it, or.....use American culture and sue for it.

Ferrari's are also hand built, each and every one of them. Human labor costs a LOT more than a factory line. Besides, you don't see other car companies also matching up to their high-prices, do you?

This is nothing like that one.

[topaimz]

What? How is this NEWS?!

We all knew what we were getting ourselves into when we started
to spend over $400 on graphic cards :P
We all knew it was scams!

jks

[arisythila]

instead of stiffling development on the gpu front, why dont the doj pursue exxon? oh right, i forgot, the government is in bed with them.

OT:
LOL....... Soooo true.Seriously why the hell are we still using gas power vehicles.

I think some people are just willing to pay high prices. Maybe for the same reason, I bought 3 PS3's and sold each one of them for about 3500 a pop. People are stupid i guess.

~Mike

[M.Beier]

exxon?
Now what is that?

Btw, if its OPEC and the olie market, keep in mind that those contries dont have any laws against cartel, USA + all European contries does, and I think australia + asia is about the same..