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Thread: Another! D5 vario pump top. Shootout Time?

  1. #1
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    Talking Another! D5 vario pump top. Shootout Time?

    Amazing what a spur to development Pete's original thread has been.

    It's been a long road for me to get to this point, v1 performed OK, but not really good enough I didn't think. I tried keeping the Buttress threaded connection of the Laing pump, but found that I could not get performance more than an few % above the stock pump, and never as good as v1. Shame too because I bought an indexable American Buttress threading bar (big$ ), but this is the design I've ended up with.

    This basically a development version of the pump head, the CNC code, the feed rates and fixturing process is still being worked out, and I am still working on the mounting arrangement. Performance came first and now that it's up to par, it's details time .

    I'm not going to show my volute just yet, as really it's the only thing that separates this pump from the EK and Koolance. Those guys have way more resources to throw at this product than I do. It's a radial O-ring design which allows me to have a much flatter volute than the buttress threaded design. As a result, I could come much closer to a textbook example of a standard pump volute. Of course since there is no longer a threaded ring, I'm using 4 little delrin clamps and stainless M5 button head cap screws.

    Now, if you don't mind please give me your thoughts on the following:

    1) How important is a second "fillport" at the pump suction? If I were to implement a fillport, it would be a true fillport, i.e. no possibility to use it as the suction since it would have awful flow geometry, and could only be used for de-aerating and filling.

    2) How important are pump looks and bling factor? I'm going to try to work out a creative and industrial looking profile, just wondering how much effort should go there.

    3) Any other hints and general suggestions to help me? I'd really appreciate it
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    You see what you did there? You got between me and the coffee, now this creates a SITUATION!

  2. #2
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    Those are some impressive gains!


    1) Not very. To me at least. I don't know anyone that fills directly into pump.

    2) Looks are not important at all to me. For people like me with a TJ07, you don't even SEE the thing!

    3) If you do decide to add a 3rd hole, please make sure it clears 1/2ID 3/4OD BP compression fittings. the EK one doesn't and its driving me crazy!

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    1. I generally use my own T fitting for fill/bleeding so I personally would prefer not to have it.

    2. I'm one to favor performance over aesthetics, so it looks good to me. As long as the price is reasonable I'd certainly be up for one.

    3. I've been working on a built in res design but had no way to mount it to the pump. You just gave me a whole head full of new ideas.
    Last edited by DoGMaN; 09-05-2008 at 06:26 PM.
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    That looks gorgeous and looks like it takes much less space. I like it as is.
    Are you running it at 24v? If so, can we see the results at 12v.

    Maybe 2 holes on the bottom and 2 drilled holes on the sides.. No need to bling it up.. looks gorgeous
    Last edited by Eddie3dfx; 09-05-2008 at 07:05 PM.
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    Awesome work, it's not easy getting alot of gain from the D5's impeller, but that looks good.

    I don't care much about bling myself, I'd be happier to see all performance and less bling. I like delrin over acrylic too.

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    wow awesome

    we definitely need more D5 R&D

    good work

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    1. Not important.
    2. Not important.
    3. Not to expensive if possible

    So this is supposed to be even better than the EK and Koolance top? God damnit!! I just bought an EK top
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    i want one!

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    I don't care for bling either, and wouldn't shell out any extra dough or sacrifice performance for it. The 655 in particular just isn't a particularily attractive pump and I don't think any decoration on the top is going to change that.

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    simple looking yet very effective mod.. i love it
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadedNine View Post
    I don't care for bling either, and wouldn't shell out any extra dough or sacrifice performance for it. The 655 in particular just isn't a particularily attractive pump and I don't think any decoration on the top is going to change that.
    Agreed, although I do care for bling to a reasonable extent, you can't change the look on the pump itself.

    Good work.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie3dfx View Post
    That looks gorgeous and looks like it takes much less space. I like it as is.
    Are you running it at 24v? If so, can we see the results at 12v.

    Maybe 2 holes on the bottom and 2 drilled holes on the sides.. No need to bling it up.. looks gorgeous
    These are 12V results, I should have labeled that.

    Running either the stock Laing housing or this housing, I notice a lot of high frequency vibration, probably 1st order of the impeller speed being transmitted to the table. I've noticed that EK and Koolance just use tapped holes, but Swiftech supplies a gel pad to mount the housing My assumption has been that hard mounting the pump to the case may create other little BSR (I'm an automotive engineer, and BSR is a standard term, means buzz, squeak, rattle).

    Perhaps two versions? A cheaper tapped hole version, and a more expensive version that has some isolation?
    You see what you did there? You got between me and the coffee, now this creates a SITUATION!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitAC View Post
    These are 12V results, I should have labeled that.

    Running either the stock Laing housing or this housing, I notice a lot of high frequency vibration, probably 1st order of the impeller speed being transmitted to the table.

    High frequency vibration.... Do you think it's Cavitation noise???
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  14. #14
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    No Walt, it clearly cavitates below about 0.6 GPM, this is a steady tone, same freq as rotation, probably rotor imbalance.

    It's not very loud at all, but I would think it could excite other parts of a case to buzz. This happens with the stock top and my top, it's just a characteristic of the pump I think.
    You see what you did there? You got between me and the coffee, now this creates a SITUATION!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaptCrunch View Post
    correct for its a dc/ac pulse phase motor, the sound you hear is the coils energizing @ a frequency

    note when change setting on the vario different tone/pitch

    When changing RPM if the frequency change is from the pump and not the motor, it's usually due to hydraulic pressure changes witch apply lateral force on the impeller. One of the things a volute does is help Balance the hydraulic pressure inside the pump head. Most pumps have a "sweet spot" (RPM wise)
    if it's motor noise thats different.

    In my first life I worked as deep mine engineer. pumped a lot of water.

    Eric would be able to determine pump noise from motor noise.

    BTW nice compact design Eric, can't wait to see the finished product
    Last edited by wdrzal; 09-06-2008 at 08:04 AM.
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

  16. #16
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    Perhaps add some kind of mounting holes to the top for easier mounting?
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitAC View Post
    These are 12V results, I should have labeled that.

    Running either the stock Laing housing or this housing, I notice a lot of high frequency vibration, probably 1st order of the impeller speed being transmitted to the table. I've noticed that EK and Koolance just use tapped holes, but Swiftech supplies a gel pad to mount the housing My assumption has been that hard mounting the pump to the case may create other little BSR (I'm an automotive engineer, and BSR is a standard term, means buzz, squeak, rattle).

    Perhaps two versions? A cheaper tapped hole version, and a more expensive version that has some isolation?
    I wouldn't worry about it to much, most of us spl anal retentites will find some convoluted personal "best" vibration damping method, or just hang the pump from the tubes. Threaded holes are sufficient.
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    i don't care about the fillport, and don't care too much about the looks (though everyone says that until Feser comes up with a butt-ugly pump top, and then they go crazy about how they won't buy it because it "looks cheap"). I mainly just care about performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by headala View Post
    i don't care about the fillport, and don't care too much about the looks (though everyone says that until Feser comes up with a butt-ugly pump top, and then they go crazy about how they won't buy it because it "looks cheap"). I mainly just care about performance.
    Maybe 2 designs a cheaper "no thrills" but "performance" model and one made for the guys you like bells and whistles,of course that would cost more, and if you get what appears to be "bell and whistles" at the same cost (from another manufacturer),you probably got a cheaper pump.Cost cuts in either motor, or the way the pump way built.

    DetriotAC wouldn't put out a product that didn't meet very high standards in performance & reliability..

    Walt
    Last edited by wdrzal; 09-09-2008 at 07:27 PM.
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitAC View Post

    2) How important are pump looks and bling factor? I'm going to try to work out a creative and industrial looking profile, just wondering how much effort should go there.
    I am planning on using inexpensive gold leaf on a pump or two for some real Bling.

    EDIT: forgot to say, I really like the clean look you've got going on so far.
    Last edited by mindspat; 09-10-2008 at 10:43 AM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mindspat View Post
    I am planning on using inexpensive gold leaf on a pump or two for some real Bling.

    EDIT: forgot to say, I really like the clean look you've got going on so far.
    Thats a great idea and easy to apply.

    Thats just a prototype,I think Eric is the kind of guy who will produce some designs that,lets say just isn't your everyday box and will out perform any thing out there. If he has the time and ambition, Or he won't waste his time if he can't "beat the socks off everyone else" .
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

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    I'm definitely liking this design. Fillports aren't a need for me but it would be nice to have screwholes for a stand or something so that its easier to change the pump's position.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitAC View Post
    No Walt, it clearly cavitates below about 0.6 GPM, this is a steady tone, same freq as rotation, probably rotor imbalance.

    It's not very loud at all, but I would think it could excite other parts of a case to buzz. This happens with the stock top and my top, it's just a characteristic of the pump I think.
    Curious what your plans are with this.
    Are you going to mass produce it and sell it yourself or have a store sell it or what..
    Let us know, because I think I'm up for a few
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie3dfx View Post
    Curious what your plans are with this.
    Are you going to mass produce it and sell it yourself or have a store sell it or what..
    Let us know, because I think I'm up for a few
    I have the fixtures (mostly) built to produce this myself with a reasonable time investment. I have an eBay store that I'll put these in for those that prefer the safety (?? perceived safety??) of eBay. I'd prefer to skip past eBay and sell them directly via paypal, but really either way will be fine.

    I don't really think the market for these will be larger than I can handle, and if I sell them myself, I can keep the costs down, Right now, it can easily be the cheapest D5 pump head on the market. We'll see...maybe keeping up with shipping headaches and orders will be just too much of a diversion from my other efforts.

    I will likely want to find a retailer in the EU for these, if they prove to be successful in the US.
    You see what you did there? You got between me and the coffee, now this creates a SITUATION!

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    I'll be wanting at least one for my build in Singapore

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