"Performance" loss with 1/4" tubing???

[Cornelious0_0]

Hi all, once again another thread, but different topic...

As mentioned in my last thread, I'm considering watercooling my Shuttle SP35P2 100% internally and as I'm looking at options one question comes up.

It seems that the easiest way for me to set all this up would be with Koolance parts due to the available right angle compression fitting nozzles and low profile of most of the components...something VERY important with the extremely cramped space available in the Shuttle.

My question is this...how much flow rate/cooling capability am i going to lose on a 1 or 2 block loop using a 120.2 rad if I go with 1/4" tubing compared to 3/8" (assuming the same pump is used no matter what)? Normally I'd automatically go 3/8" or 7/16" but the extra flexibility of 1/4" may come in handy VERY much...I just wanna make sure I'm not shooting myself in the foot at the same time. Essentially, as long as my temps are going to be better then stock air cooling in the Shuttle (Q6600 @ 3GHz 1.2v 45c idle, 58c load + HD4870 55c idle, 80c load) by even a small margin I'll be happy, as the watercooling would be going in mainly for the fun of it and to reduce noise...lower temps are more of a bonus then the main goal.

Please let me know if it gets irritating that I start a new thread if I have a completely different topic to bring up if it's happening rapidly...but I'm very close to being able to say that all of this WILL be possible and I wanna get it all ironed out asap so I can rest easy.

[MpG]

Not that I'd normally advocate 1/4" tubing on this forum, but... to be honest, at a measely 3.0Ghz, even 1/4" tubing will work. That simply isn't much of a heat load where water-cooling is concerned.

Martin's flow rate estimator doesn't allow for 1/4" tubing, but even using 3/8" tubing, an EK-Supreme (restrictive), a D-Tek Fuzion GFX (restrictive) and a stock DDC 3.1 (weak), the estimate still comes up at 0.8gpm. Use less restrictive blocks and you're laughing, even with thinner tubing.

So I'd say that you could get away with 1/4" tubing, no problem at all. You might take a few teases from other watercoolers, but no worries.

[Webby]

See Cathar's thread for the impact on tubing size

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=147767

Personally if you wanted small tubing I would go for 8mm/10mm or maybe Fesers 3/8"ID 1/2" OD tubing coupled with their compression fittings

[gurusan]

There's very little real world differences between tubing size, but 1/4" is pretty derned small. I'd go with 10mm tubing like the thermaltake stuff.

[twwen2]

Edit: dangit, Webby beat me to it. Read it though, Cathar knew his stuff.

[Xilikon]

No problem doing 1/4" loop but you will be hard pressed to find parts. A better alternative is 3/8" ID 1/2" OD with Koolance fittings

[aster]

Finding 1/4" parts is easy in Europe. In most of shops in France and Germany, this is the only size available :/

[Xilikon]

OP is in Canada so finding 1/4" parts is much more harder than ever That's why I made that suggestion of 3/8" ID 1/2" OD

[Martinm210]

The biggest problem with smaller tubing is "IF" you use smaller barbs.

Smaller 1/4" barbs will turn an ultra free flowing MCW30 into a very high restriction block. An not just double the restriction we're talking factors of 10 more restrictive.


Everything in the estimator is based around 1/2" barbs and you can get 3/8" tubing on 1/2" barbs, so I included that, but you'd have to go smaller on the barbs for 1/4" tubing and that I can't estimate in the estimator. Everything would have to be retested.

Water has an amazing specific heat value which makes it do really well in todays blocks even at lower flow rates, but how low would you end up I don't know.

[Eddie3dfx]

I'll see if I can find this link but an old review site had an innovatek kit and had a 3c increase in performance when going from 1/4" compression tubing/barbs to 3/8" tubing/barbs.
According to cathars graph, the 3/8" tubing with quickfit barbs perform almost the same as 1/2" tubing.barbs.
I assume he means push fit barbs? I've never seen push fit in 3/8 though

[Cornelious0_0]

It's actually quite easy for me to order 6mm and 10mm compression fittings and waterblocks with compatible G1/4" threads...performance-pcs carries the Bitspower compression fittings I would need/want and there are tons of waterblocks/pumps/rads that support the G1/4" thread...here's what I'm looking at so far:

- Swiftech Apogee GT Extreme CPU block
- DangerDen CPX1 Compact Low Noise Pump
- Black Ice GT Stealth 120 Radiator
- Bitspower Premium G1/4" High Flow 1/4"ID Compression fittings x 8
- Koolance Drain Valve
- Blue PVC 1/4" Tubing

There's probably a little bit of explaining in order to get my point across in regards to a few parts. The CPU block I thought was a fairly good one, and I need something with a fairly basic mounting plate, as i will have to make my own or drill holes into the existing one to match the mounting holes on my Shuttle's motherboard that are not standard distances apart.

The Pump still seems to have very good max head compared to other pumps of similar size and I need something as compact as possible, as it's gonna be sitting ontop of the PSU in the empty space shown here.

The Radiator also has to meet certain size restrictions, it has to be 40mm or less in thickness, and the Black Ice GT Stealth was (I thought) the best performing rad within those size constraints when I was looking at over a dozen last night.

The Bitspower fittings are fairly self explanitory along with the tubing. I know people are going to try and get me to go with 3/8" and it's what I would normally do as well, but within the space contraints of the Shuttle I really need all the flexibility I can get when it comes to the tubing. Check this out to see what I mean. Kind of a bad picture but the CPU block will be behind the 92mm fan in the front of the picture, the hard drive in the bottom 3.5" bay and the radiator and 120mm fan above the drive. Just shows how little space there really is, the 6mm tubing is more of a requirement in my eyes then a convenience option.

The last part I'm fairly excited about is the Koolance Drain Valve. I'm gonna have it mounted in the back of the case where the two rear 60mm fans are with the drain nozzle sticking out the back of the case. I'll probably setup a T-line just before or after the Drain nozzle to fill the system, and draining will be as simple as tilting the Shuttle on it's back and opening the drain valve.

One thing that I didn't include in the parts list is a GPU block. I'm still trying to figure out how it would work out, but I'd like to also put my HD4870 in the same loop with the CPU. I know normally would start yelling not to put the Q6600 and HD4870 in the same loop with only a 120.1 rad but the CPU is currently loading at 60c and the GPU at 80c on air...I doubt temps would be any worse then that if they shared that rad. As long as my CPU doesn't load at 60c and the GPU doesn't hit 80c I really don't care what the temps are like...I don't plan on dong a lot of extra overclocking with this setup, it's mainly to eliminate fans and noise in the system (and obviously for the impressive look of a watercooled Shuttle)...lower temps are more of a bonus. If I do choose to add the HD4870 to the loop I'm not sure if it'll be a GPU only block or full coverage but that's neither here nor there...just a future possibility for me to ponder for now.

I dunno how easy it is to visualize all this but after spending a few hours last night measuring things out I'm positive all this would work. The hardest and most involving part will be making a mounting plate for the Apogee to match the holes on the Shuttle mobo...but once that's done I'll be laughing!

I'm completely open to suggestions when it comes to the block/pump/rad. If something is suggested that doesn't meet measurement requirements I'll let the poster know but otherwise I'm very open to discussion...the more input the better as it'll be a little while before I can start work on this.

All the input thus far has been appreciated...keep it comin'...just remember that everything has been chosen up to this point for very specific reasons and I might not be TOO flexible to change my plans beyond a less restrictive CPU block

[Xilikon]

Just a question, did you consider the radiator fans ? If you forgot about that then it's 40mm+25mm and depending about where you put it, it's impossible

[Eddie3dfx]

It's actually quite easy for me to order 6mm and 10mm compression fittings and waterblocks with compatible G1/4" threads...performance-pcs carries the Bitspower compression fittings I would need/want and there are tons of waterblocks/pumps/rads that support the G1/4" thread...here's what I'm looking at so far:

- Swiftech Apogee GT Extreme CPU block
- DangerDen CPX1 Compact Low Noise Pump
- Black Ice GT Stealth 120 Radiator
- Bitspower Premium G1/4" High Flow 1/4"ID Compression fittings x 8
- Koolance Drain Valve
- Blue PVC 1/4" Tubing

There's probably a little bit of explaining in order to get my point across in regards to a few parts. The CPU block I thought was a fairly good one, and I need something with a fairly basic mounting plate, as i will have to make my own or drill holes into the existing one to match the mounting holes on my Shuttle's motherboard that are not standard distances apart.

The Pump still seems to have very good max head compared to other pumps of similar size and I need something as compact as possible, as it's gonna be sitting ontop of the PSU in the empty space shown here.

The Radiator also has to meet certain size restrictions, it has to be 40mm or less in thickness, and the Black Ice GT Stealth was (I thought) the best performing rad within those size constraints when I was looking at over a dozen last night.

The Bitspower fittings are fairly self explanitory along with the tubing. I know people are going to try and get me to go with 3/8" and it's what I would normally do as well, but within the space contraints of the Shuttle I really need all the flexibility I can get when it comes to the tubing. Check this out to see what I mean. Kind of a bad picture but the CPU block will be behind the 92mm fan in the front of the picture, the hard drive in the bottom 3.5" bay and the radiator and 120mm fan above the drive. Just shows how little space there really is, the 6mm tubing is more of a requirement in my eyes then a convenience option.

The last part I'm fairly excited about is the Koolance Drain Valve. I'm gonna have it mounted in the back of the case where the two rear 60mm fans are with the drain nozzle sticking out the back of the case. I'll probably setup a T-line just before or after the Drain nozzle to fill the system, and draining will be as simple as tilting the Shuttle on it's back and opening the drain valve.

One thing that I didn't include in the parts list is a GPU block. I'm still trying to figure out how it would work out, but I'd like to also put my HD4870 in the same loop with the CPU. I know normally would start yelling not to put the Q6600 and HD4870 in the same loop with only a 120.1 rad but the CPU is currently loading at 60c and the GPU at 80c on air...I doubt temps would be any worse then that if they shared that rad. As long as my CPU doesn't load at 60c and the GPU doesn't hit 80c I really don't care what the temps are like...I don't plan on dong a lot of extra overclocking with this setup, it's mainly to eliminate fans and noise in the system (and obviously for the impressive look of a watercooled Shuttle)...lower temps are more of a bonus. If I do choose to add the HD4870 to the loop I'm not sure if it'll be a GPU only block or full coverage but that's neither here nor there...just a future possibility for me to ponder for now.

I dunno how easy it is to visualize all this but after spending a few hours last night measuring things out I'm positive all this would work. The hardest and most involving part will be making a mounting plate for the Apogee to match the holes on the Shuttle mobo...but once that's done I'll be laughing!

I'm completely open to suggestions when it comes to the block/pump/rad. If something is suggested that doesn't meet measurement requirements I'll let the poster know but otherwise I'm very open to discussion...the more input the better as it'll be a little while before I can start work on this.

All the input thus far has been appreciated...keep it comin'...just remember that everything has been chosen up to this point for very specific reasons and I might not be TOO flexible to change my plans beyond a less restrictive CPU block

TSK TSK That drain valve is aluminum.. Don't mix metals!

[Cornelious0_0]

Just a question, did you consider the radiator fans ? If you forgot about that then it's 40mm+25mm and depending about where you put it, it's impossible

Yeah...the 40mm thickness restriction is for the rad alone...i still have enough room for a 25mm fan and it'll just barely fit...actually pretty cool how close the measurements worked out in my favor.

TSK TSK That drain valve is aluminum.. Don't mix metals!

Wow...nice catch...I didn't see that at all. Dunno if I'll use something like that at all...maybe just a T-Line one way or another for fill and drain.

That's what I mean...if you guys see something that doesn't look quite right please let me know...I'll ditch the drain valve for sure and work something else out in it's place in the mean time.

[Xilikon]

Also, if you want a better pump while keeping in the same form factor as the CPX-1, get a DDC with a Alphacool top then you have more flexibility with the connections.

[Cornelious0_0]

I think I'm gonna go with the Alphacool Laing DDC listed here and just put this water tank attachment on top.

One kinda cool thing is that the pump with the water tank is about 3 or 4mm to tall to fit in the case, but I'll cut out a hole in the top of the case above the water tank, not only will I be able to look down and see the water flowing (more "wow" factor never hurts) but it'll also leave the cap completely exposed and accessible from outside the case, making it easy to fill the system with absolutely NO risk of spilling water on the PSU or anything inside the case!

Now I'm even more excited...thing's are definitely looking up.

[Xilikon]

For the radiator, I suggest you get a MCR120 instead : http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=3495 due to better flowrate and only 34mm thick.

[Cornelious0_0]

It says that the Swiftech rad has barbs pre-mounted to it, which makes me think I couldn't put the same Compression fittings on it that the rest of the loop is using, but if it gives you the option to change the barbs when ordering then don't think think it'd be possible to take the barbs off?

Can anyone confirm whether or not the Swiftech MCR120 uses standard G1/4" threads and has removable barbs? If so then I'll switch for sure if it's less restrictive.

[Xilikon]

It says that the Swiftech rad has barbs pre-mounted to it, which makes me think I couldn't put the same Compression fittings on it that the rest of the loop is using, but if it gives you the option to change the barbs when ordering then don't think think it'd be possible to take the barbs off?

Can anyone confirm whether or not the Swiftech MCR120 uses standard G1/4" threads and has removable barbs? If so then I'll switch for sure if it's less restrictive.

Yes, I confirm it take G1/4" barbs. the description and pictures are old but to be sure, send a email to Hank to check this. I have a MCR120 myself and it take G1/4" barbs.

[LinusTech]

All MCR series rads (excluding the reservoir versions) we've ever had in stock have had G1/4 compatible threads on them. We've been carrying Swiftech for almost 2 years. I wouldn't worry about getting one of the old ones.

As for the performance impact between 1/4" and 3/8", if you're not going to go crazy overclocking and the water cooling is more for silence than for performance, then 1/4" is fine for your purposes. Like most North American shops though, we don't stock a lot of 1/4", so 3/8" thin wall with some anti-kink coils might be your best bet.

[Eddie3dfx]

Depends on where you get them.
I got my mcr320 and 220 from microcenter last year and didn't realize they were both 3/8 npt

[LinusTech]

Yeah I guess I can't vouch for other stores' inventory...

[Cornelious0_0]

Nice to see you posting regularly here Linus, I just put through a $2,100 order for a watercooled system for a client of mine with you guys and I have been very happy with the service...just had to RMA one of the radiator barbs as I was sent the wrong size for one of them.

I checked NCIX and there isn't a lot of 6mm fittings that I'm looking for, most of the other parts are in stock though that i could use, do you know (Linus) if it's possible to order the 1/4" ID Bitspower compression fittings so that I can deal with you guys isntead of an american company?

Other then that...good to hear about the Swiftech rad...I'll go with that instead of it is a lower restriction rad for sure.

I'm not planning on doing crazy overclocking...just whatever i can get, as long as i can at least keep my 3GHz quadcore.

Thanks again for the help thus far everyone...very much appreciated.

EDIT: Do you guys think that with the MCR120 and a 80cfm fan I could get away with the 3GHz quadcore and the HD4870 with a full coverage block and keep the cpu under 60c load and the GPU under 80c load? I really wanna put the CPU and GPU both on water, and even if the temps suck...I really don't care, as long as they're the same as or better then my air temps. For me, the benefits of watercooling the 4870 and getting rid of both ICE fans AND the 4870's cooler far outweigh the extra cost and overall higher water temps. If the Swiftech rad offers lower restriction and I'm going with the DDC I should be ok with how small the loop is in terms of water preasure/flow...just wanna make sure I'm not somehow gonna see my temps higher then they are on air at the moment.

[Eddie3dfx]

Sharka has 8/11mm compression fittings.
I believe thats 5/16 id and 7/16 od..

[Cornelious0_0]

I'm taking a look now and if I can get all the parts I need through Sharka i might go with the 8mm ID tubing...might as well go a LITTLE larger, that 2mm shouldn't sacrifice any flexibility, I just dont wanna go as big as 3/8".