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Thread: Futuremark removes GTX 280 scores

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    Xtreme Owner FUGGER's Avatar
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    Exclamation Futuremark removes GTX 280 scores

    But I am told they will be back up shortly.

    All non WHQL drivers will not be publishable (a given)

    177.39 is a beta driver and will not be valid for ORB (a given)

    Nvidia 177.35 drivers are being considered for ORB approval.

    Catalyst 8.6 drivers are being considered for ORB approval.

    Physx 8.06.12 driver is a system driver and does not effect graphic display or performance on GPU tests.

    Multipath IO driver is a system driver, does not effect graphic display but does effect graphics performance.

    Vantage has a "Physics" test, no one expected it work so well.

    Futuremark is fixing the non whql drivers and the non FM approved drivers currently and that is fine and the way it should be with exception to 3Dmark 2001 where anything goes.

    The removal of 01 scores was a mistake to the global change in driver support on the ORB and it will be fixed.

    Physics is a win for consumers, ATI is freaking out with no answer as they should be, they got caught with their pants down.

    In time if ATI does get it together and delivers Physics on their GPGPU it may do better with 800sp and higher clock speeds but as it sits now, ATI wants nothing more than to snuff physics in Vantage.

    Futuremark, dont make us cripple our systems to run your benchmark.
    I would not disable Physx 8.06.12 nor would I disable Multipath IO for gaming.

    Separate "physics test" from "CPU test" and avoid the semantics being used against you. We all know and accept it is a physics test.
    Last edited by FUGGER; 06-24-2008 at 10:39 PM.
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    no sleep, always tired TheGoat Eater's Avatar
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    That blows - your hard work removed

    I have vantage but haven't run it yet and this is not not making me want to run it at all!
    ^^^This and 9600 GSOs not being implemented in ORB sucks for me also (so I can feel where you are coming from on a fraction)
    Last edited by TheGoat Eater; 06-24-2008 at 11:20 AM.
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    Xtreme Owner FUGGER's Avatar
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    Its ok, scores on 177.35 will be back up. I ran my stuff with WHQL approved drivers knowing the problems with non fm approved.

    My 119K score will be back up too, that was a mistake.

    Vince took a hit but he will recover, we undertand WHQL and FM support, we know what should be visible and accept that.
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    Any idea of a time frame when they say "being considered" ?

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    no sleep, always tired TheGoat Eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUGGER View Post
    Its ok, scores on 177.35 will be back up. I ran my stuff with WHQL approved drivers knowing the problems with non fm approved.

    My 119K score will be back up too, that was a mistake.

    Vince took a hit but he will recover, we undertand WHQL and FM support, we know what should be visible and accept that.
    yeah - good to hear that you got your results back! I know this is most likely gonna piss people off though - like those who spent a lot of time working and spent $$$ on LN2,DICE, what have you only to get results removed... with about nothing to show for it in the long run... well those that used the betas

    you agree as this is big (to me) as far as time / money

    I know i am just cutting my teeth in this arena (extreme overclocking) but to me it seems awful to loose monetary and time value put towards a goal... now if I could get 9600GSOs up and recognizd by ORB (FM) for Monday for a certain reason that would be good for me (one can hope right ) and my OC lifestyle well being
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    Xtreme Mentor STaRGaZeR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUGGER View Post
    Vantage has a "Physics" test


    FM should have warned about this, but as you see, it says CPU TEST. And CPU means no Ageia PhysX card and no PhysX on GPU, either ATI or NVIDIA. If they want a Physics test, put it alone. Both "cheats" should be disabled.

    Also I don't know if you were the one who deleted the two threads in the news section about the TheINQ article regarding this, but that's fanboyism in its pure form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post


    FM should have warned about this, but as you see, it says CPU TEST. And CPU means no Ageia PhysX card and no PhysX on GPU, either ATI or NVIDIA. If they want a Physics test, put it alone. Both "cheats" should be disabled.

    Also I don't know if you were the one who deleted the two threads in the news section about the TheINQ article regarding this, but that's fanboyism in its pure form.
    I was wondering myself about the 2 threads, but nevertheless, The PPU was allowed since launch, Futuremark clearly knew it was going to be used. PPU has been out for how many years? wasn't it out for the development of Vantage?

    Everybody heard that Nvidia was going to take PhysX and make it run on 8800s or higher GPUs. Your Acting like this is Nvidia fault, Nvidia just kept their word by developing it. It wasn't supposed to be leaked to the public either. That's why it doesn't support all the GPUs it should, Futuremark possibly knew about the work nvidia was doing. Because if you think about it, Neither parties are at fault here. Neither parties really expected a leak.
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    Xtreme Mentor STaRGaZeR's Avatar
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    I'm not against PPU or NV PhysX, never! I'm against using them in a CPU test. That was Futuremark's error since the very beginning, and now they have this rough decision to make.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerryR, on John Fruehe (JF-AMD) View Post
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    Xtreme Owner FUGGER's Avatar
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    To be fully aware, Physics was made to run on Ageia card, the driver for CPU was for development so that shoots the CPU theory down.

    Crash and Burn: Physics

    The fact is that it is a physics test.
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    Xtreme Mentor STaRGaZeR's Avatar
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    You can say what you want, in the final version you need two GPU test and two CPU test to get a score. A CPU is a CPU.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerryR, on John Fruehe (JF-AMD) View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
    You can say what you want, in the final version you need two GPU test and two CPU test to get a score. A CPU is a CPU.
    Well, Fugger is right. From what I've seen and been told. They pretty much adopted PhysX into the benchmark, So CPU Test 2 is Clearly Physics based.

    Clearly written on Futuremarks site about Vantage is this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuremark
    CPU Test 2: Physics The Physics Test features a heavy workload of future generation game physics computations. The scene is set at an air race, but with an unfortunately dangerous configuration of gates. Planes trailing smoke collide with various cloth and soft-body obstacles, each other, and the ground. The smoke spreads, and reacts to the planes passing through it. The physics test takes advantage of the AGEIA PhysX physics accelerator, if found on the system.
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    Xtreme Mentor STaRGaZeR's Avatar
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    As you know, PhysX effets can be calculated by the CPU just fine, but at much lower speed. 3DMark06 also uses the PhysX libraries and nobody told anything back then. A PPU is not a CPU and it should not be allowed in the test.

    But this thing is getting nowhere. They should have put it in a different test since the beginning, now it can't be helped. Ageia cards will still be supported, but not NV cards.

    I doubt you'll ever see PhysX on GPU (ATI/NV) allowed in Vantage.
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    Xtreme Mentor demonkevy666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
    As you know, PhysX effets can be calculated by the CPU just fine, but at much lower speed. 3DMark06 also uses the PhysX libraries and nobody told anything back then. A PPU is not a CPU and it should not be allowed in the test.

    But this thing is getting nowhere. They should have put it in a different test since the beginning, now it can't be helped. Ageia cards will still be supported, but not NV cards.

    I doubt you'll ever see PhysX on GPU (ATI/NV) allowed in Vantage.
    I agree with that.

    wouldn't you need a driver for that to work in the first place to make the card look like a PPU instead of a GPU.

    I wonder if that will make hem have to remake the whole thing to get ride of the CPU doing PPU stuff.
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    Xtreme Enthusiast bowman's Avatar
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    The second 'CPU' test has always been allowed to run a physics card, and this was widely touted before release.

    This is Futuremark's fault for calling it a 'CPU' test because it wasn't one from the start. Only if you didn't have a physics processor. Then, noone had an Ageia PPU, but now, a lot of people have a GeForce PPU (in effect, or PPonGPU if you want to be pedantic )

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    Quote Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
    As you know, PhysX effets can be calculated by the CPU just fine, but at much lower speed. 3DMark06 also uses the PhysX libraries and nobody told anything back then. A PPU is not a CPU and it should not be allowed in the test.

    But this thing is getting nowhere. They should have put it in a different test since the beginning, now it can't be helped. Ageia cards will still be supported, but not NV cards.

    I doubt you'll ever see PhysX on GPU (ATI/NV) allowed in Vantage.
    Well I guess Nvidia and Futuremark have to work out something. Because I don't think Nvidia will sit back and say "Oh noes, Don't show off our PhysX on GPUs" The best thing really is rename CPU Test 2 to Physics Test 1, And Have it effect final score less then what it does now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by [cTx]Warboy View Post
    Well I guess Nvidia and Futuremark have to work out something. Because I don't think Nvidia will sit back and say "Oh noes, Don't show off our PhysX on GPUs" The best thing really is rename CPU Test 2 to Physics Test 1, And Have it effect final score less then what it does now.
    That is the best option, scoring may change some but physics is still a major test that gamers need to know what is stronger. Its sad that ATI is so far behind it makes this a one sided race, but hey its not our fault they had plenty of time to deliver.

    ATI had the monopoly on Crossfire with Intel as AMD cpu's suck. Sure lots of people complained but we survived. Now that we have SLI on Intel its a whole new ball game and the winner is...Nvidia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUGGER View Post
    That is the best option, scoring may change some but physics is still a major test that gamers need to know what is stronger. Its sad that ATI is so far behind it makes this a one sided race, but hey its not our fault they had plenty of time to deliver.

    ATI had the monopoly on Crossfire with Intel as AMD cpu's suck. Sure lots of people complained but we survived. Now that we have SLI on Intel its a whole new ball game and the winner is...Nvidia.
    I hope Nvidia gets the license back to make Chipsets for Nehalem. Can't Wait to play with Nehalem+SLi
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    Quote Originally Posted by [cTx]Warboy View Post
    Well I guess Nvidia and Futuremark have to work out something. Because I don't think Nvidia will sit back and say "Oh noes, Don't show off our PhysX on GPUs" The best thing really is rename CPU Test 2 to Physics Test 1, And Have it effect final score less then what it does now.
    lke Fugger said, that's a reasonable option...maybe the best part is what you say about the score...should effect less...

    if FM does not correct that part it could either backfire on them or Nvidia...when it comes to reviewers...this is a example...X nvidia card gets 15k points , X Ati card gets 7k points, half the points...when the hit up the games benchmarks..frame wise..they are even...or let say..ati wins...we all know that FM benchmark is a indicative of a card performance...the higher the better...
    so the reviewers will end up with 2 conclusions...

    1.Nvidia car is a good benchmark card..but when it comes to delivering frames in a game..is bad...
    2. FM vantage is not a good indicative of performance anymore cause you got some video cards that score way less(4 -6 k points) and have give better frames in games...so is going to discredit vantage...

    and in the end...the one who is going to look good Fugger is Ati...the PR is going to be " more performance with half of the points in FM benchmarks"

    look at the bigger picture...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoc View Post
    lke Fugger said, that's a reasonable option...maybe the best part is what you say about the score...should effect less...

    if FM does not correct that part it could either backfire on them or Nvidia...when it comes to reviewers...this is a example...X nvidia card gets 15k points , X Ati card gets 7k points, half the points...when the hit up the games benchmarks..frame wise..they are even...or let say..ati wins...we all know that FM benchmark is a indicative of a card performance...the higher the better...
    so the reviewers will end up with 2 conclusions...

    1.Nvidia car is a good benchmark card..but when it comes to delivering frames in a game..is bad...
    2. FM vantage is not a good indicative of performance anymore cause you got some video cards that score way less(4 -6 k points) and have give better frames in games...so is going to discredit vantage...

    and in the end...the one who is going to look good Fugger is Ati...the PR is going to be " more performance with half of the points in FM benchmarks"

    look at the bigger picture...
    that sounds like the 2900 XT descriptions lol

    benchamrks where high but FPS in games wheren't as great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoc View Post
    lke Fugger said, that's a reasonable option...maybe the best part is what you say about the score...should effect less...

    if FM does not correct that part it could either backfire on them or Nvidia...when it comes to reviewers...this is a example...X nvidia card gets 15k points , X Ati card gets 7k points, half the points...when the hit up the games benchmarks..frame wise..they are even...or let say..ati wins...we all know that FM benchmark is a indicative of a card performance...the higher the better...
    so the reviewers will end up with 2 conclusions...

    1.Nvidia car is a good benchmark card..but when it comes to delivering frames in a game..is bad...
    2. FM vantage is not a good indicative of performance anymore cause you got some video cards that score way less(4 -6 k points) and have give better frames in games...so is going to discredit vantage...

    and in the end...the one who is going to look good Fugger is Ati...the PR is going to be " more performance with half of the points in FM benchmarks"

    look at the bigger picture...
    I do look at the biggest possible picture.
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    Xtreme 3D Team Member jimmyz's Avatar
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    If they are going to change the benchmark (highly doubtfull) then they should do something about the other issues like load times.


    And while they are at it they can rewrite the graphics test to use DX10.1. after all it is std now with service pack 1.
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    Xtreme Owner FUGGER's Avatar
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    Good points Jimmy.
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    Xtreme Mentor STaRGaZeR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [cTx]Warboy View Post
    Well I guess Nvidia and Futuremark have to work out something. Because I don't think Nvidia will sit back and say "Oh noes, Don't show off our PhysX on GPUs" The best thing really is rename CPU Test 2 to Physics Test 1, And Have it effect final score less then what it does now.
    That's not possible and you know it. Then Vantage would be a completely different benchmark. The same goes to DX10.1 . That can be done for Vantage 2 or whatever. The only thing they can do now is, without changing anyhing in the current scores and tests, add another preset with GPU PhysX or DX10.1 allowed. Or do nothing and just block any submissions done with this driver.

    But I want NV there doing pressure, that will force ATI to do something. Now that we are in the beginning of the GPGPU era so to speak they should define an open source language that can be used by everyone. CUDA and CTM are not a viable option IMO.
    Last edited by STaRGaZeR; 06-24-2008 at 04:18 PM.
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    The Doctor Warboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
    That's not possible and you know it. Then Vantage would be a completely different benchmark. The same goes to DX10.1 . That can be done for Vantage 2 or whatever. The only thing they can do now is, without changing anyhing in the current scores and tests, add another preset with GPU PhysX or DX10.1 allowed. Or do nothing and just block any submissions done with this driver.

    But I want NV there doing pressure, that will force ATI to do something. Now that we are in the beginning of the GPGPU era so to speak they should define an open source language that can be used by everyone. CUDA and CTM are not a viable option IMO.
    It is very possible, all they have to do is change a simple bitmap and how it calculates scores and boom, Hotfix 2 for Vantage.
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    Xtreme Owner FUGGER's Avatar
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    It is possible and the best route.

    Will I consider a game now that support Physx? yes.

    AMD and Havok announce plans to optimize physics processing on the AMD platform

    SUNNYVALE and SAN FRANSISCO, Calif. — June 11, 2008 — AMD (NYSE: AMD) and Havok today announced plans to jointly investigate the optimization of physics effects utilizing AMD’s full line of products.
    Havok Physics scales extremely well across the entirely family of AMD processors, including quad-core products such as the AMD Phenom™ X4. As part of the collaboration, Havok and AMD plan to further optimize the full range of Havok technologies on AMD x86 superscalar processors. The two companies will also investigate the use of AMD’s massively parallel GPUs to manage appropriate aspects of physical world simulation in the future.
    Reality is that I have had more time to investigate Superpi on CUDA...

    http://www.havok.com/content/view/639/53/

    If and when this becomes reality then hopefully FM will have an appropriate benchmark ready, cant blame FM when ATI hasnt done anything to date.
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