M$ Certifications

[nfm]

Hi,
Did anyone here took any M$ tests such as MCP (Microsoft Certified Professional), MCTS (Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist), MCSA (Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator). I was only able to find out how much MCP costs and it was $125. If anyone knows how much MCTS and MCSA is and what it takes to pass please share. I trying to compare this to computertraining.com and to see if $27 is really worth it. What do you guys think is better, getting certified or working working hard for bachelor's degree in computer science. I'm beginning to hear that bachelor's will get you nowhere, you need to be certificated to get a job.

[Serra]

I did the whole track for Server 2003. I knew it was a waste of money at the time, and years later I still think it was a waste of money. No-one hires based on having an MCSE, and no-one really takes them seriously. Way too many people went out and used TestKing and other cheating material and passed - I'd say easy 80%+ of all MCSE's are "paper" MCSE's, and they've ruined the certification. Besides, it's ridiculously easy. The answer to every third question is "Use the wizard". I literally just did a walk-in with no prep to my last two exams.

As to whether you should get a bachelors or a certification - bachelors, hands down. The idea of getting an MCSE *instead* is actually pretty well ridiculous.

And no, certifications alone will not get you a job. If you walk up to a company with a fistful of certifications but no experience, they'll assume (probably correctly) that you've just cheated your way into them. A bachelors on the other hand doesn't have that issue. Don't get me wrong, unless you're programming, a bachelors in computer science really doesn't do you any *practical* good anymore... but companies still hire like it does.

No matter what, you have to start at the bottom. With a bachelors though, the idea is that your bottom might not be as bad as it could be otherwise, you can go into more fields to start with (one of the big bonuses - for example, you could jump from there into software, hardware, networking, and a myriad of other things), and maybe you pick up enough information to help you get a promotion faster (the last point is increasingly incorrect excepting software development, but meh).

[Th3MadScientist]

jobs want one thing...experience, if you have experience you should know whats on these Microsoft test and pass them without completely hitting the books, sure it will look good on a resume but overall experience is key. For those types of tests, I would honestly go out and get experience for what you are trying to pass, you'll never pass the Server 2003 test unless you have experience with it, studying for it would take a long time to retain that amount of information without having a chance to apply it.

Me personally I'd take up something that can be applied in any situation, I'd study VBScript or something of that nature and take up Virtualization. Virtualization is gonna be big, my company is about to go virtual with all our servers.

[jbartlett323]

jobs want one thing...experience, if you have experience you should know whats on these Microsoft test and pass them without completely hitting the books, sure it will look good on a resume but overall experience is key. For those types of tests, I would honestly go out and get experience for what you are trying to pass, you'll never pass the Server 2003 test unless you have experience with it, studying for it would take a long time to retain that amount of information without having a chance to apply it.

Me personally I'd take up something that can be applied in any situation, I'd study VBScript or something of that nature and take up Virtualization. Virtualization is gonna be big, my company is about to go virtual with all our servers.

I disagree... well kinda...

Expirience is paramount!!!! must have to get anywhere!!
however it will do absolutly jack crap on any certification except mess you up cause how microshaft wants you to do it and the best way are totally different things!

certification can be great things! i am 2 years out of a six month MCSA course (of which i only completed the A+ N+ and windows xp tests), didn't go to my last day of school cause i had i job, and am currently employed full time making *decent* money...

but everyone i work with has a bachelors... guess what... they admit i learned more in school than they...

I guess the point is yes certs are good things... as long as you can demonsrate the knowledge they claim you have!

[systemviper]

i would have to say the Bat degree for sure, i agree that there are just to many paper microsoft tigers out there.

also keep your credit good, now that is the first thing they run, a damn credit check

[whatever]

I think the SSCP and CISSP are way better than M$ certifications !

[Serra]

CISSP requires 5 years experience in security. You can do it without, but if your employer knows what it is, they'll know why you shouldn't have it.

A lot of guys working at Best Buy have MCSE's and go to MCSE training. Not too many of them make 80k+/year or will ever have the opportunity to do so. A guy with a bachelors on the other hand, his chances are notably better. I don't remember the last time I saw one of them working a job like that (not that I haven't met some that should have).

I mean, look at self-study vs real school this way. With real school, you can walk right up to a decent job. With self study of something like virtualization (to borrow from an above poster) or an MCSE, all you can do is walk up to an employer and say "I have an MCSE" or "I have really read a lot of books about and worked on virtualization in my home, can I please have a job with some responsibility within your companies IT infrastructure?". You'll get laughed out and end up taking some notably worse job than you could have otherwise had. You can work up, but it may very well take a lot more time.

[nfm]

I've asked them many questions, when you get to finish that school you will have to start at the bottom, level 1 meaning pc technician , help desk, sales rep. Then when you get experience in that you can move up, this is where other certification will come useful. I was told that certifications play a greater role than bachelor's degree in IT world, but they did not discourage me to continue learning. %70 of all students at the end of the course must be employed, they said that's the requirement from ms. I don't really like ms but that's where the business is. I'm more of a linux and c programmer guy, I'm thinking of getting some experience in IT field and hopefully some company will sponsor me to learn something else I would be willing to do. How did you guys start working in IT?

[Serra]

This is probably going to be kind of long. I apologize for that in advance, but I've been where you are and I just want to pass off what I've seen so you can make the most informed decision you can.

I started in networking. I can actually assure you that a Cisco certification is far more valuable than any Microsoft certification, though obviously in different areas. The thing with Microsoft is that yes, they have a popular appeal as being "the big thing"... but really, all they are is an OS. Companies don't hire you to support an OS (except as a help desk guy) - they hire you to support those *applications* that run on the OS. When you really get down to it, the OS just doesn't do that much, aside from providing permissions as to who can access what (but sadly, not really in a true "security" area sense of the phrase).

Before I go on, also realize I'm no poo-pooing *every* certification - but the MCSE is a tragic way to start. Certifications in Citrix, Cisco, Juniper, etc. are all perfectly fine and have a different path.


Let me outline your carrier path for you with only an MCSE:
First you'll spend 1-2 years working as a PC technician at Best Buy, a job you could probably get right now. Now, statistically, you'll probably either end up staying there or going to a similar job or different career area altogether, but let's assume that's not the case. After a few years, you get annoyed with working there and get lucky and get a job as a PC technician for a company. You work there for a year, making a bit more money, but really you're not getting anywhere. If you're really on the ball and offer to help out in other areas, maybe they let you help out and do support for a particular application... though at the same wage, just extra work because it might help you get a promotion later. Now here's where things can go one of two ways: either you keep applying for a real server job and get the lowest step-up they could give you (after which, with more years of work, you might get to really do some work with real responsibility) OR (and this is very common) you don't get promoted because you're type-cast within your organization as a help-desk guy with no real server experience. "But I have an MCSE" you'll tell them.. and they'll say "Yeah, you're an MCSE on a server system that was in 5 years ago... and you've never had any real experience in that roll". Incidentally, you will never work in software or hardware development. After a few years in server, you may get to move into entry-level corporate networking though.

Can you catch a break? Sure. But you can't plan your life hoping to "catch a break". Realistically, no company you would want to work for would ever give any real responsibility to someone from a help desk without a lot of years of work, and I guarantee a lot of it is going to be free overtime and doing out-of-scope work. And even then, you start at the *bottom* with the server stuff because all you know is a basic OS and some client-side technology.


Let's look at Bob with a bachelors though.

Bob bypasses the helpdesk stage altogether (unless he's not motivated enough and just takes the first job he sees an add for, I have seen that before). In school, Bob may have decided he prefers hardware development and goes to work for Bell Labs. Or maybe, he learned he like software and went to work for the NSA. Perhaps he prefers networking, and so he decides to get into that... and starts working on quantum networking in a lab.

Still, he could come out just preferring vanilla server/applications/networking. Well, OK. Let's go with "server"s for now. He bypasses all that garbage you had to deal with as a help desk guy and goes straight into being a server admin. If you're lucky and caught some breaks, the you who took the MCSE program might even start on the same day in the same position as him. Looks to me like your solution was the best, as really you made money while he was in school and you're both doing the same thing. But is it really that simple? When the chance comes up for a promotion, let's see what the managers are saying:
Manager 1: We have two candidates, Mr. MCSE or Bob the BSC. Mr. MCSE has worked with us in a help desk for a few years, and has been a server admin for 1. Bob has only been a server admin for 1, but has a bachelors in Comp Sci.
Manager 2: Well, I think Bob likely learned more in his years of school that will help our company than Mr. MCSE did as a basic help desk technician. Also, I kind of have to question Mr. MCSE's credentials, as that was a cert that was offered 3 years ago. Bob on the other hand has used his bachelors in comp sci to write scripts and patched that custom application we have and really pulled us out of a jam.
Manager 1: So Bob, hands-down?
Manager 2: Yeah, obviously.


And really, that's how it's going to be until you've been in the job role area you want to be in for a long enough time that you do have enough experience to start to win in those competitions.


Now who am I to say this? I was in a university for 3 years to get a degree in Engineering (1st year was in another faculty, 2nd year I failed one class and couldn't declare a major... at the third year I decided I didn't want to spend another 3 years to get the degree for reasons outside the scope of this post), and switched to a respectable college for a 2-year degree in Networking (and picked up a CCNP along the way - a great investment). I've been through both kinds of schooling (academic and practical), I have friends who finished both, and I have my own experience in the working world. I also have known people in my part-time jobs through school who went the other route and just got some paper certifications (A+, MCSA/E, etc)... well, let's just say, I haven't seen them outside of the kinds of places you work part-time while you're in school and I don't expect I ever will.


If it sounds to you like you'd still prefer to do the MCSE thing, that's fine - I've said my peace. I just want to make sure you're well aware of the path those things tend to get you. My best advice if you go that route is:
1. Stay current. Don't just sit with an MCSE - move on to other things, and never stop until you get to where you want to be (at least). That certification has a much shorter shelf life than you might think, especially if you aren't using it.
2. Never become so happy with your job that you stop looking for something a bit better. Don't change jobs too often, but make sure that where you work you have a real career path available.
3. Especially when you're starting - be prepared to do some free overtime and take on additional work. You'll never leave the help desk unless you start making contributions to other teams.
4. Keep in touch with people as you go from job to job. Even if you just send them an e-mail every month or so, you never know when the contact could come in handy.

[MikeB12]

The one good thing about the Microsoft certs is it will at least get your resume past the first weed out.. I've been out of the game since I got sick about 5 years ago and ended up getting a double organ transplant last year, which has put me on long term disability for the forseeable future from the resulting lifestyle of meds, constant complications, and immune system crap...

But I started in IT in the 90's as a bachelor degree (bba of all things) and CNE (Novell), then MCSE through NT and 2000.... Finally ended up as a admin on the application side of the network doing app pushes and managing desktop population apps... and I can tell you when we hired desktop techs and had a stack of resumes in front of us, the first thing we did was go through and weed out all the ones that had no certs... so there is some value to at least having a MCSA or MCP....

but as said by others here, always keep up and keep moving... the certs may get you into the interview, and the interview may get you hired, but then it's up to you to produce some good work and be an asset to the IT organization.

so the certs are worth it, they may help you get that first interview that you would not have gotten without it..

[nfm]

@Serra, big thanks. Th3MadScientist, jbartlett323, systemviper, whatever, MikeB12, thanks.

Serra, I'm planning to do MCP, MCSA, MCSE, A+, and CCNA altogether (maybe even a Novel, Red Hat, Ubuntu, Linux+, or LPI if there's a job to work on UNIX systems). After 6 months training I would continue my path to bachelor's in CS. I like C, kernel, low-level, assembly programming. My dream job would be programming hardware or administrating Linux servers. Do you think it would be a better idea take A+ with CCNA, save $27K, and if I'm lucky, start a job similar to what MCSE or MCSA offers?