Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 46

Thread: Tech Report & TG Daily's report on Ubi's removal of DX10.1 from AC

  1. #1
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    4,811

    Tech Report & TG Daily's report on Ubi's removal of DX10.1 from AC

    Assassin's Creed is a third-person stealth game found on the PC, PS3 and Xbox360. When it was announced that Ubi would remove DX10.1 do to a rendering pass in post processing that is costly conspiracy theories starting brewing. The Tech Report was able to setup a brief interview with Charles Beauchemin, the tech lead for the Assassin's Creed development team to answer a few questions surrounding this controversy. Below, is interview:

    TR: First, what is the nature of the "costly" "post-effect" removed in Assassin's Creed's DX10.1 implementation? Is it related to antialiasing? Tone mapping?

    Beauchemin: The post-effects are used to generate a special look to the game. This means some color correction, glow, and other visual effects that give the unique graphical ambiance to the game. They are also used for game play, like character selection, eagle-eye vision coloring, etc.

    TR: Does the removal of this "render pass during post-effect" in the DX10.1 have an impact on image quality in the game?

    Beauchemin: With DirectX 10.1, we are able to re-use an existing buffer to render the post-effects instead of having to render it again with different attributes. However, with the implementation of the retail version, we found a problem that caused the post-effects to fail to render properly.

    TR: Is this "render pass during post-effect" somehow made unnecessary by DirectX 10.1?

    Beauchemin: The DirectX 10.1 API enables us to re-use one of our depth buffers without having to render it twice, once with AA and once without.

    TR: What other image quality and/or performance enchancements does the DX10.1 code path in the game offer?

    Beauchemin: There is no visual difference for the gamer. Only the performance is affected.

    TR: What specific factors led to DX10.1 support's removal in patch 1?

    Beauchemin: Our DX10.1 implementation was not properly done and we didn't want the users with Vista SP1 and DX10.1-enabled cards to have a bad gaming experience.

    TR: Finally, what is the future of DX10.1 support in Assassin's Creed? Will it be restored in a future patch for the game?

    Beauchemin: We are currently investigating this situation.
    In a nutshell, the performance gains with DX10.1 and AA are in fact real. The removal of the rendering pass in post processing is a direct result of DX10.1's antialiasing efficiency and doesn't effect IQ. What is concerning is they are non-committal in restoring DX10.1 once removed via patch. I encourage you can to read more of this article here. One thing that caught my attention about this article is this:

    We'll be watching to see what happens next. For our part, the outcome will affect whether and how we use Assassin's Creed and other Ubisoft and Nvidia "TWIMTBP" titles in our future GPU evaluations.


    The article from TG Daily. Take note of the article's title.

    ...The difference that developers failed to explain is the way how AntiAliasing is controlled in DirectX 10.0 and 10.1. In DX10.0, it was impossible to access information for each sample from a depth buffer. This actually led to a costly slowdown in AntiAliasing operations. 10.1 allows shader units to access all AntiAliasing buffers. All of this was brought to limelight by article an over at Rage3D (http://www.rage3d.com/articles/assassinscreed/).

    Following three quotes from software developers, this effect was experienced with all DirectX 10 titles, and there is a good chance that you've already played their games. We talked to a (DX10.0) game developer close to Ubisoft, who requested to remain anonymous, told us that Ubisoft’s explanation walks on thin ice. Here is what he responded to our inquiry and his take on Ubisoft’s statement:

    “Felt you might want to hear this out. Read the explanation and laughed hard … the way how DX10.1 works is to remove excessive passes and kill overhead that happened there. That overhead wasn't supposed to happen - we all know that DX10.0 screwed AA in the process, and that 10.1 would solve that [issue]. Yet, even with DX10.0, our stuff runs faster on GeForce than on Radeon, but SP1 resolves scaling issues on [Radeon HD 3800] X2.”

    We received a second reply from another game developer, who is currently a DirectX 10.1 title that fully compliant with DX10.0 hardware:

    “Of course it removes the render pass! That's what 10.1 does! Why is no one pointing this out, that's the correct way to implement it and is why we will implement 10.1. The same effects in 10.1 take 1 pass whereas in 10 it takes 2 passes.”


    A third email reply reached us from a developer a multiplatform development studio:

    “Our port to DX10.1 code does not differ from DX10.0, but if you own DX10.1-class hardware from either Nvidia or ATI, FSAA equals performance jump. Remember "Free FSAA"?”
    Last edited by Eastcoasthandle; 05-09-2008 at 09:51 AM.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #2
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    uk , bristol
    Posts
    312
    so can nvidia cards render those effects .....im sure i read somewhere that they cant and newer ati cards can .....and ubisoft being in bed with nvidia "TWIMTBP" branded made ubisoft look stupid as only ati could pull it off....ofcourse i could just be steaming drunk and made all this up as i have no proof...

  3. #3
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,713
    thanks.... it looks like DX10 games are finally getting their foot in the door. Shame that Ubisoft is so conflicted about DX10.1 support. First they tell you they are removing it to do i properly, and then when you ask them when they will do it properly they tell you that they have not decided whether to actually do it properly.
    TAMGc5: PhII X4 945, Gigabyte GA-MA790X-UD3P, 2x Kingston PC2-6400 HyperX CL4 2GB, 2x ASUS HD 5770 CUcore Xfire, Razer Barracuda AC1, Win8 Pro x64 (Current)

    TAMGc6: AMD FX, Gigabyte GA-xxxx-UDx, 8GB/16GB DDR3, Nvidia 680 GTX, ASUS Xonar, 2x 120/160GB SSD, 1x WD Caviar Black 1TB SATA 6Gb/s, Win8 Pro x64 (Planned)

  4. #4
    Xtreme Mentor
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    3,080
    So what is the conspiracy theory then?...what are the tech sites trying to imply in Ubi removing DX10.1?
    Gigabyte EP45-DQ6 - rev 1.0, F13a bios | Intel Q9450 Yorkfield 413x8=3.3GHz | OCZ ProXStream 1000W PSU | Azuen X-Fi Prelude 64MB X-RAM| WD VelociRaptor 74HLFS-01G6U0 16MB cache 74GB - 2 drive RAID 0 64k stripe | ASUS 9800GT Ultimate 512MB RAM (128 SP!!) | G.SKILL PC2-8800 4GB kit @ 1100MHz | OCZ ATV Turbo 4GB USB flash | Scythe Ninja Copper + Scythe 120mm fan | BenQ M2400HD 24" 16:9 LCD | Plextor 716SA 0308; firmware 1.11 | Microsoft Wireless Entertainment Desktop 8000 | Netgear RangeMax DG834PN 108mbps; firmware 1.03.39 + HAWKING HWUG1 108mbps USB dongle | Digital Doc 5+ | 7 CoolerMaster 80mm blue LED fans | Aopen H700A tower case | Vista Home Premium - 32bit, SP1

  5. #5
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    4,811
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Dower View Post
    So what is the conspiracy theory then?...what are the tech sites trying to imply in Ubi removing DX10.1?
    Several reviewers have examined this game:
    -PC Games Hardware
    -HardOCP
    -Rage3d + Rage3d's Addendum
    as well as StarGazer's IQ observations and the general consensus that I understood was that although the game had a few bugs that needs to be fixed there is no reason (so far) to remove DX10.1 altogether. Also, DX10.1 performance is better with AA when compared with DX10 but is still slower then DX9 (per StarGazers observations). So far there isn't an IQ issue in post processing that warranted the removal of DX10.1 . If there is it should be fixed, not removed IMO.
    Last edited by Eastcoasthandle; 05-08-2008 at 06:02 PM.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #6
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hopatcong, NJ
    Posts
    1,078
    [mulder]

    basically.... it implies that DX 10.1 performance improvements are removed from AC and other TWIMTBP titles because NVidia cards cannot take advantage of the render pass savings since all its current hardware is DX 10.0. Giving AMD cards extra performance gains with no image quality loss in TWIMTBP titles is bad for Nvidia's reputation. There is no reason to remove 10.1 support because it benefits the consumer, so the only other explanation is that NVidia does not want it there!!!

    [/mulder]

    'Gaming' AMD FX-6300 @ 4.5GHz | Asus M5A97 | 16GB DDR3 2133MHz | GTX760 2GB + Antec Kuhler620 mod | Crucial m4 64GB + WD Blue 2x1TB Str
    'HTPC' AMD A8-3820 @ 3.5GHz | Biostar TA75A+ | 4GB DDR3 | Momentus XT 500GB | Radeon 7950 3GB
    'Twitch' AMD 720BE @ 3.5GHz | Gigabyte GA-78LMT-S2P | 4GB DDR3 | Avermedia Game Broadcaster

    Desktop Audio: Optical Out > Matrix mini DAC > Virtue Audio ONE.2 > Tannoy Reveal Monitors + Energy Encore 8 Sub
    HTPC: Optoma HD131XE Projector + Yamaha RX-V463 + 3.2 Speaker Setup

  7. #7
    Xtreme Mentor
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Spain, EU
    Posts
    2,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle View Post
    as well as StarGazer's IQ observations and the general consensus that I understood was that although the game had a few bugs that needs to be fixed there is no reason (so far) to remove DX10.1 altogether. Also, DX10.1 with AA increased performance on DX10.1 capable video cards. So far there isn't an IQ issue in post processing that warranted the removal of DX10.1. If there is it should be fixed, not removed IMO.
    DX10.1 has advantages over DX10. The AA perfomance hit is lower. That doesn't make DX10.1 good, as it's still slower than DX9 even with AA. The problem with AC is that is full of other bugs not related to DX10.1 but that appear mostly when using DX10.1 and AA.
    Friends shouldn't let friends use Windows 7 until Microsoft fixes Windows Explorer (link)


    Quote Originally Posted by PerryR, on John Fruehe (JF-AMD) View Post
    Pretty much. Plus, he's here voluntarily.

  8. #8
    I am Xtreme zanzabar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    SF bay area, CA
    Posts
    15,871
    and NV wins another nerf to ati cards, AMD needs to take action over this instead of going affter intel
    5930k, R5E, samsung 8GBx4 d-die, vega 56, wd gold 8TB, wd 4TB red, 2TB raid1 wd blue 5400
    samsung 840 evo 500GB, HP EX 1TB NVME , CM690II, swiftech h220, corsair 750hxi

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Wherever I may roam...
    Posts
    591
    Darn, I was looking forward to seeing dx10.1

  10. #10
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    4,811
    Quote Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
    DX10.1 has advantages over DX10. The AA perfomance hit is lower. That doesn't make DX10.1 good, as it's still slower than DX9 even with AA. The problem with AC is that is full of other bugs not related to DX10.1 but that appear mostly when using DX10.1 and AA.
    Understood, thanks for the heads up
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  11. #11
    all outta gum
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    3,390
    Instead of blaming Nvidia, I would rather blame game developers. Would you cripple your brainchild to please some guys in some company? I would not, for whatever amount of money.
    www.teampclab.pl
    MOA 2009 Poland #2, AMD Black Ops 2010, MOA 2011 Poland #1, MOA 2011 EMEA #12

    Test bench: empty

  12. #12
    Xtreme X.I.P.
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Shipai
    Posts
    31,147
    im really confused here...
    so 10.1 is supposed to be faster than 10 with aa, right?
    and why did ubisoft remove it now? cause it didnt work properly and was not faster? or was it even slower than the implementation in dx10.0?

    that doesnt make much sense...
    the image quality was the same according to them, so its a perf thing.
    well if 10.1 isnt faster than 10... who cares...? its unlikely its going to be any worse either so... i dont get why they changed it.

  13. #13
    I am Xtreme zanzabar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    SF bay area, CA
    Posts
    15,871
    Quote Originally Posted by stocius View Post
    Darn, I was looking forward to seeing dx10.1
    just get a fire wall and block it from connecting to the internet when u install it


    Quote Originally Posted by xoqolatl View Post
    Instead of blaming Nvidia, I would rather blame game developers. Would you cripple your brainchild to please some guys in some company? I would not, for whatever amount of money.
    so they would make bugs up in their game that only effected ati cards, and this has nothing to do with NV buying their labs for them or the adds in some/most of their games
    Last edited by zanzabar; 05-08-2008 at 11:52 PM.
    5930k, R5E, samsung 8GBx4 d-die, vega 56, wd gold 8TB, wd 4TB red, 2TB raid1 wd blue 5400
    samsung 840 evo 500GB, HP EX 1TB NVME , CM690II, swiftech h220, corsair 750hxi

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    264
    Which is why I think people should boycot nvidia.

    I realize that saying this on XS is somewhat dangerous, but I think I trapped the worst trolls for good in my other thread:

    http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=185365

    So they will most likely not bother us here.


  15. #15
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,030
    This thread his hilarious
    Are we there yet?

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    264
    Quote Originally Posted by saaya View Post
    well if 10.1 isnt faster than 10... who cares...?
    10.1 IS faster than 10, it says in the articles.
    In 10.1 only one pass is needed for something that would take multiple passes in 10, which is why it is faster.

    According to Ubi the 10.1 implementation is flawed tho, causing problems on dx 10 systems (which is allready a bit weird, and goes against what many dx 10 hardware users say) and causing dx 10.1 rendering to be flawed. (even though dx 10.1 and dx 10 IQ is exactly the same on ati hardware)

    The strangest thing (and the reason for suspicion) is that instead of fixing the supposed dx 10 version problems, and the 10.1 rendering issues, Ubi will remove dx 10.1 support alltogether, and their latest statement is that they are not yet sure when or if it will be brought back.

    Nvidia states they did not ask to remove dx 10.1 support, which is of course the only logical response from them, since they are in the PC gaming alliance, meaning they are supposed to support innovation and implementation of the latest api's to make games work on as much hardware as possible.
    http://www.techreport.com/discussions.x/14185

    By techreport:
    For our part, the outcome will affect whether and how we use Assassin's Creed and other Ubisoft and Nvidia "TWIMTBP" titles in our future GPU evaluations.
    Which is the only logical response imho.

  17. #17
    Xtreme Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Portsmouth, UK
    Posts
    963
    Quote Originally Posted by zanzabar View Post
    and NV wins another nerf to ati cards, AMD needs to take action over this instead of going affter intel
    Still no proof to support your anti-nvidia agenda. If anything it sounds like the developers don't understand DX 10.1, among othyer things but not a conspiracy against AMD.

  18. #18
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,176
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Dower View Post
    So what is the conspiracy theory then?...what are the tech sites trying to imply in Ubi removing DX10.1?
    The conspiracy its that some zealots believe nvidia bribed ubisoft to remove dx10.1


    but I urge you not to listen to all this crap....
    ....because you might turn out like this guy -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    Which is why I think people should boycot nvidia.

    I realize that saying this on XS is somewhat dangerous, but I think I trapped the worst trolls for good in my other thread:

    http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=185365

    So they will most likely not bother us here.


    lol, you got served so many times in that thread

  19. #19
    One-Eyed Killing Machine
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Inside a pot
    Posts
    6,340
    If he wasn't an AMD ( ATi ) fanboy I'd say he's Rollo

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    264
    Quote Originally Posted by Jowy Atreides View Post
    The conspiracy its that some zealots believe nvidia bribed ubisoft to remove dx10.1


    but I urge you not to listen to all this crap....
    ....because you might turn out like this guy -

    lol, you got served so many times in that thread
    You think that conspiracy is unlikely, I think it is likely.
    And I don't really care about what the mayority thinks, or what trolling I face, or what nvidiots think they "served me".
    I speak my mind and am not an ati fanboy, I like S3 just as much.
    I simply dislike nvidia.

  21. #21
    One-Eyed Killing Machine
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Inside a pot
    Posts
    6,340
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    You think that conspiracy is unlikely, I think it is likely.
    And I don't really care about what the mayority


    p.s. You don't want to hear what the majority thinks
    Last edited by BenchZowner; 05-09-2008 at 08:43 AM.

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    264
    You made that picture especially for me?
    I am really flattered that you take the time to express your feelings about my opinion by googling up a picture and putting some text in it that is only hilarious because of the grammar mistake you've made, but unless you can come up with some convincing arguments/explanations, I will still think it's likely ubisofts actions have something to do with nvidias financial "support".
    Does my opinion upset you?
    Last edited by Jakko; 05-09-2008 at 08:32 AM.

  23. #23
    One-Eyed Killing Machine
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Inside a pot
    Posts
    6,340
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    You made that picture especially for me?
    I am really flattered that you take the time to express your feelings about my opinion by googling up a picture and putting some text in it that is only hilarious because of the grammar mistake you've made, but unless you can come up with some convincing arguments/explanations, I will still think it's likely ubisofts actions have something to do with nvidias financial "support".
    Does my opinion upset you?
    You're eating some milliseconds of my life, yeah congratulations.
    Unfortunately a stupid chip made of silicon is actually smarter and more fun to play with than you.

    p.s. Get a life

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    264
    Quote Originally Posted by BenchZowner View Post
    You're eating some milliseconds of my life, yeah congratulations.
    Unfortunately a stupid chip made of silicon is actually smarter and more fun to play with than you.

    p.s. Get a life
    I see you made a new picture for me, this time with grammar that makes sense. Very good!
    Do you have more input regarding the actual subject of this thread though?
    Comparing me to a chip and telling me to get a life is fun and all, but surely since you feel so passionate about my supposed flawed opinion, you can explain why I am wrong?

  25. #25
    One-Eyed Killing Machine
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Inside a pot
    Posts
    6,340
    Just like you don't try teaching a dog how to cook, for the same ( obvious ) reasons I ( and the rest ) refuse to start a "conversation" with you anymore.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •