AMD expands charges against Intel

[Neuuubeh]

I dont get it how you guys manage to get so worked up over something as vague as this :X. I cant seem to be able to find
any concrete claims from either side, it all comes down to "they said this, we think its the other way". BS

Intel plays tough with aggressive marketing campaigns, price cuts, sponsoring, etc? What, are they expected to shut down
fabs in order to balance out with AMD's really bad situation?

Gonna be interesting to see the outcome of this charge, personally I dont see anything happening..

[GoThr3k]

First of all, life isn't fair, big deal! If AMD were in Intel's place they'd do the same danged thing Co-Marketing and Rebates aren't illegal, hell, I wished they were!

The point was AMD never hurt Intel sales as much Intel hurt them themselves with that POS Preshott! I bought AMD because it was the best. That's when AMD gained market share. AMD didn't gain as much market share as they should have because they were too Frakkin greedy with X2 and high @$$ prices slowed their sales. AMD's other problems were Volume, Volume and more Volume as Dell clearly show-ed everyone.

I bought Conroe because it was the best, I bought a $200 Penryn because it was the best and IF K11 kicks Intel's @$$, I'll most certainly will buy it. I'm a Fanboy of the Best LOL!

I can talk about performance to the cows comes home, but the whole computer market isn't about "performance". Computers are judged by the whole platform stability, price/affordable and that's what AMD plus its fans don't seem to understand. That's some of the reason AMD didn't take the market by storm. When AMD had a competitive product, Intel under cut them on price just as AMD is trying to do now! The main difference was Intel processors were ALWAYS easier/cheaper to manufacture. Intel never dipped below 1 billion profits for that reason.

i can mostly agree with you, offcourse rebates arent illegal. But if you stop given those rebates because your costumer builds some computers with components from a competitor just isnt fair. Maybe AMD would have done the same, but we will never know. It's about the fact that intel DID something wrong.

The rest of your reply is completely right

[Donnie27]

Donnie27, however much I respect you, and even fear disagreeing with you (I am aware of previous über ownage you have given), then you are still wrong about all of this. So, I'll give it a try.

After the A64 was released, Intel was behind in terms of overall performance in the desktop market until C2D.

Of course, if one ignores that market, then of course there was the mobile Banias, Dothan and Yonah cores, since they matched or trashed the A64 and A64 X2 in just about everything.

It was obvious to most, that AMD's days was over, unless they released a completely new architecture... which they really haven't since the K8 days (K10 is still too much a K8, compared to what C2D was to the old netburst architecture).

I've never disrespected anyone without it being done to me first=P

to get it through his thick skull.

Most folks here believed Northwood didn't suck as he said. If he said Prescott, I'd said QFT! When Northwood shipped, A64 was still very NEW and took about 6 to 8 months to RAMP up or to reach 1 million a Quarter. Please explain to me how that was killing Intel. Again, early nVidia boards sucked as well. AMD couldn't gain market share under those conditions.

Now it is not my opinion that A64 doesn't come close to the Domination X2 had over P4. P4 still had apps it ran faster as well. P4 did multi-task better and had better motherboards. AMD's problem was not just the processor but its motherboards support as well.

I can talk back and forth with anyone here with that crap! Please get others to do the same?

[Calmatory]

Intel plays tough with aggressive marketing campaigns, price cuts, sponsoring, etc? What, are they expected to shut down
fabs in order to balance out with AMD's really bad situation?

THey are investigating on what may have been happening years ago, when AMD dominated Intel. Besides, Intel has admitted the Japanese antitrust case.

[duploxxx]

I can talk about performance to the cows comes home, but the whole computer market isn't about "performance". Computers are judged by the whole platform stability, price/affordable and that's what AMD plus its fans don't seem to understand.

oh yes pls explain more from your standpoint....its just because of the whole platform that AMD is still interesting to buy but you'll probably start with OC comments to be able to downgrade that.

and for the high price on k8, Intel didn't drop its price that significant either, its only from c2d they tried to put the pressure on AMD. And why would AMD drop there price during that time? they couldn't follow on production, that's the only reason why Intel was able to keep that much market share.

btw nice sig, real bunny stuff, go play a bit more on your crap p35 mobo thx to your so preferred vendor that has the best cpu for all usage (according to your statements) but fails big time on mobo support since the release of c2d.... 975-965-p35-x38-x48-p45 (not to mention the budget parts) in 2 years time.

I went with the 8400 and don't need to multi-task since I have more than one computer anyway.

off course you don't need to multi-task, that's why you bought yourself a few Intel rigs, they can't multi-task only bench.......I only have to buy one, you know, one of those so called crappy cpu architectures.

[Donnie27]

i can mostly agree with you, offcourse rebates arent illegal. But if you stop given those rebates because your costumer builds some computers with components from a competitor just isnt fair. Maybe AMD would have done the same, but we will never know. It's about the fact that intel DID something wrong.

The rest of your reply is completely right

No Biggie

As one poster said very well, it's the other stuff that AMD will have to prove. If Intel did wrong, I hope the pay up! But my favorite line is still; "If I bought computer parts based on morals or who's not ripped me off, I'd not have a computer". That Includes both AMD and Intel

[Seraphiel]

Maybe i should have said desktop market, to get it through his thick skull.

*snip*

Having re-read the last few pages, I would like to think, the controversy is more about users speaking past one another and not to each other (points, and limitations about said points, were missed on all 'sides' (mine included)).

Though I might be wrong, and these various members of the community are really this blind of others views (and reasons behind), I still like to be the naive one until that is certain. The tone of it all certainly didn't help further the topic nor the understanding of anyone's views.

First of all, life isn't fair, big deal! If AMD were in Intel's place they'd do the same danged thing Co-Marketing and Rebates aren't illegal, hell, I wished they were!

*snip*

I agree with most of your points (obvious by previous posts), but not about the "Co-Marketing and Rebates" part - If they aren't legal, then they are at least ethical to me personally

I am biased towards towards Intel, I admit that for now, and until my job and my personal choice don't dictate otherwise. But really, who isn't? We all have our choices and preferences, tied to cost, applications and purpose - and are this all different. If it wasn't so, then the "x86 (/ x64) CPU war" (if there ever was one) would already be done and over a long time ago:

There are no clear choice for ALL consumers and 'user profiles', yet, until only one stands and survive, and AMD isn't Intel's only competition - and as you have already pointed out or hinted at, Intel may well be their own greatest enemy (just like Microsoft), which leaves them vulnerable but not weak.

I predict a paradigm shift in a few years... That may well leave Intel and Microsoft to be the weakest of all, as they have the biggest investment in current generic consumer PC technology, and thus are by default the most reluctant to adapt to a evolution they are no longer the masters / dominant player of.

[Donnie27]

I agree with most of your points (obvious by previous posts), but not about the "Co-Marketing and Rebates" part - If they aren't legal, then they are at least ethical to me personally

I am biased towards towards Intel, I admit that for now, and until my job and my personal choice don't dictate otherwise. But really, who isn't? We all have our choices and preferences, tied to cost, applications and purpose - and are this all different. If it wasn't so, then the "x86 (/ x64) CPU war" (if there ever was one) would already be done and over a long time ago:

There are no clear choice for ALL consumers and 'user profiles', yet, until only one stands and survive, and AMD isn't Intel's only competition - and as you have already pointed out or hinted at, Intel may well be their own greatest enemy (just like Microsoft), which leaves them vulnerable but not weak.

I predict a paradigm shift in a few years... That may well leave Intel and Microsoft to be the weakest of all, as they have the biggest investment in current generic consumer PC technology, and thus are by default the most reluctant to adapt to a evolution they are no longer the masters / dominant player of.

Sure the rebates are at least sleazy but that doesn't help AMD.

Rebates, Co-Marketing, Co-Branding and Exclusive Pro-Rated Rebates ARE NOT illegal=P They are also disclosed. AMD is saying Intel went beyond those. There are plenty of mis-statements and some just plain FUD + lies! Most folks in the industry know that Intel is a PIG-sow. The problem is there are 1000's of companies feeding off Intel's Teets.

Intel pays a portion of every OEM's advertising costs to not only Co-Marketing, the Intel Jingle at the end! They also Co-Brand, AW-55 with Core-Xtreme whatever yada yada, AMD can't afford to so that Reseller has more of a COB and less ROI! Very Legal~!

OEM-B gets 60% Rebate for an exclusive deal vs full price for OEM-A who chooses to sell AMD as well. OEM-C gets a 30% Rebate for selling only 10% AMD processors. That's Full Price for OEM-A, NOT HIGHER prices as at least two posters posted here that's purely false! Not only false but pretty dumb since that reseller can buy from any Distributer cheaper. This is so bogus it's funny! Again tray prices are out there and ANYONE can buy em' at that price.

HP has always sold AMD Processors.

I'm biased against FUD. I don't want to see folks LIE on AMD or Intel, or anyone else for that matter. Phenom isn't as fast as the C2x that doesn't mean it sucks! Just as P4 Northwood didn't suck and Prescott did LOL!

Last but not least, thank you for talking and not flaming! Again, I reply to folks the same way they post to me. The EU and others love to shake down off shore companies for all they can get, be it Intel, MS, and many others. But that's what they get for going off shore in the first place This is old and there are no secretes! Japan shook down Intel LOL, what money did AMD get?

By Mike Magee
Published Monday 9th August 1999 09:28 GMT

Dealers and distributors close to Intel's plans have revealed a rebate system which will give further price reductions to people who buy its processor and other products. The IPD rebate system, available only to dealers who buy through Intel authorised distributors, not only provides its customers with rebates on processors, but also gives them a two percent merchandising incentive payment, the sources said. That, in addition to rebates, is intended to further put pressure on Intel competitors -- such as AMD. Rebates for those joining the system, amount to $23 apiece for 600MHz and 550MHz Pentium IIIs, $15 for 500MHz Pentium IIIs, and $5 for the now doomed PIII/450. There are even rebates available on the already cutthroat Celeron family of chips, amounting to around $3 at the high end. The Xeon family also offers whopping reductions, with the 2Mb Pentium III/500 Xeon having $126 lopped off its price. Intel has also extended such rebates to hubs, routers, chassis and a heap of other products, showing it can afford some pain in its gladiatorial battle with AMD... ®

http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/08...auses_further/

http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...eek+exclusives

Cuomo is looking for evidence that Intel violated state and federal laws, but industry and legal analysts contend the allegations could be difficult to prove, given the competitive pricing of Intel's chips. "Predatory pricing and exclusive dealing are a tough case under U.S. law," says John Peirce, a partner at law firm Bryan Cave who specializes in antitrust and commercial litigation. While the European Union takes a dim view of exclusive contracts, the arrangements are widespread in U.S. markets, where courts have been loath to intervene except to remedy "egregious" violations, Peirce says. Furthermore, Intel would be susceptible to charges of predatory pricing only if opponents could prove it manipulated prices in such a way as to push AMD out of the market but limit its own losses. "AMD appears to be in the market for the long run," Peirce adds.

Same folks who tried to give away 1 million, who are they kidding? To the other guy, AMD is NOT a none profit organization~!

AMD's charges may not ultimately adhere to Intel, but they'll likely provide a continuing distraction at a time when the chip king can ill afford one.

Good night!

[Seraphiel]

*massive snip*

Good night!

Good night to you too!

That was a very good read, and although it didn't really change my personal opinion, I certainly learned a few things from that post. Thank you for this service.

However, I really wanna see opposing views or facts to your post, if not only for sake of diversifying my personal views upon all this. I'll think more deeply about all you have wrote and linked to, then read people's counters, and respond there after.

Someone please do so for now, because Donnie27 makes a little too much sense right now, IMO.

You are all very welcome to do so, but I would appreciate if the tone could be kept sober, because it is too easy to attack an user that doesn't do so (I know from experience): focus upon the arguments, opinions and facts... and not the users themselves.

[Donnie27]

oh yes pls explain more from your standpoint....its just because of the whole platform that AMD is still interesting to buy but you'll probably start with OC comments to be able to downgrade that.

and for the high price on k8, Intel didn't drop its price that significant either, its only from c2d they tried to put the pressure on AMD. And why would AMD drop there price during that time? they couldn't follow on production, that's the only reason why Intel was able to keep that much market share.

btw nice sig, real bunny stuff, go play a bit more on your crap p35 mobo thx to your so preferred vendor that has the best cpu for all usage (according to your statements) but fails big time on mobo support since the release of c2d.... 975-965-p35-x38-x48-p45 (not to mention the budget parts) in 2 years time.

off course you don't need to multi-task, that's why you bought yourself a few Intel rigs, they can't multi-task only bench.......I only have to buy one, you know, one of those so called crappy cpu architectures.

Yes it is a nice sig and funny, not bunny stuff LOL! Just as AMD still isn't
anywhere near shipping 45nm LOL!

[VALLYGIRLVOICE] Whaaateeverr![/VALLYGIRLVOICE]

one of those so called crappy cpu architectures

Clearly you aren't using any common sense here! Link to me saying anything close to that crappy CPU arch, please, go ahead? No, I'm not talking about overclocking! I said AMD hasn't had the best platforms.

I owned a EP-7KXA, a Revision 1 Abit KT-133 was just as worse, same goes for the first to nVidia boards. The one I had wasn't even fit to be called a Beta board Sc-939, I tried update my Asus A8N-16X (great board software sucks) with the 32X version, ended up going back to the 16X! It didn't like my X-Fi, while the 16X did. Didn't like my Ram or my Antec PSU, while the 16X did. nVidia software didn't work on either board. A later BIOS fixed most of the problems but I couldn't and shouldn't have had to wait on one Compaqs that wouldn't share IRQs, Gateways at work that corrupted the HDD about every 30 to 45 days! Last 3 Intel boards worked right out the box! No one quarter of the problem I encountered.

[Donnie27]

Good night to you too!

That was a very good read, and although it didn't really change my personal opinion, I certainly learned a few things from that post. Thank you for this service.

However, I really wanna see opposing views or facts to your post, if not only for sake of diversifying my personal views upon all this. I'll think more deeply about all you have wrote and linked to, then read people's counters, and respond there after.

Someone please do so for now, because Donnie27 makes a little too much sense right now, IMO.

You are all very welcome to do so, but I would appreciate if the tone could be kept sober, because it is too easy to attack an user that doesn't do so (I know from experience): focus upon the arguments, opinions and facts... and not the users themselves.

Thank you and I always try to!

[Donnie27]

Looking at your replies, and at your sig I may ask you one thing: have you ever said anything positive about AMD or negative about Intel? Why do you have A64 if northwood was so superior back then? Why so many AMD CPUs if most of them just suck compared to P4s?

Then the attacking towards other posters... Keep it up man!

I missed this one and before I go to bed, I must answer. Just as I said before, I try to buy the best stable, price to performance I can get. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I owned both a Northwood and a 3500+. The Northwood was in my HTPC where it did Movie, Pictures, Music and other streaming tasks very well thank you very much. My 3500 served me well as it was mainly used for games on my main rig, something was very good at, thank you again! My E6600 replaced it. Please note, I still have that 3500+ I don't just talk about buying the best, I put my money (small amounts) where my mouth is. I'm loyal to my wallet, not Intel's or AMD's.

I've trashed Intel and AMD on this forum. I've patted both on the back as well. Even in this thread! I called Intel on Fat Lies they told about errata issues to sell off old stock! When it comes to Intel and AMD they both can be Champs or Chumps, the u and the a are interchangeable

[elmadre]

Fortunately legal systems around the world don't work like this.It doesn't matter what you think , but the evidence put forward.

AMD's greatest success of all time aren't its products , but the bad PR it created around Intel.And it shows.

You "already" know the accusations are true ; irrespective of what the court will decide ; if it'll be in Intel's favor , those "expensive lawyers" are to blame.

Talk about a dysfunctional logic and society...

legal systems around the world protect actions by companies like intels, buy having expensive legal systems which have ambiguously written laws and protracted court cases in which the company with the greater financial position erodes the other company's capacity to afford the case.....
thats the dysfunctional part! the truth doesn't stand a chance...it's a load deck. law and justice are worlds apart.

they defend the monopolies and take a feed from the kill, like jackels.

[BullGod]

Frijoles anyone?


AMD sucks, get over it...

[GoThr3k]

Frijoles anyone?


AMD sucks, get over it...

very contributive post....