using car radiators...why not?

[DarthBeavis]

I think we agree on the general idea of kids and pets = be EXTRA careful with ethelene glycol-based products . . .

w00t on consensus . .

thanks for the common voice . . now back to the thread in progress

[Waterlogged]

so if I understood correctly you suggest getting hold of a piece of zinc and putting it in the system...

regarding the ratio would you suggest that even with my pump, a car radiator and only one block in the loop I could encounter significant drop in efficiency?

Anyway please be patient because I will be posting pictures very soon of my rig. I just need to understand what fittings to use to adapt tygon 8mm to the intake/outake of the car radiator.

Only if you decide to follow through on a mixed metal loop. The zinc would be the anode instead of the aluminum so it should prevent any damage to the aluminum parts. If you don't use the zinc, the higher concentration of anti-freeze (when change frequently) would do pretty much the same job as the zinc, but with higher temps as the thermal transfer would be compromised by being so high.

Again, I'm not condoning the use of mixed metals and strongly urge you to find suitable parts for an all copper/brass loop.

[Waterlogged]

yea, I have been thinking about transmission oil coolers, especially automatic transmission coolers, but the problem is most of them are aluminum from what ive seen. they are also the perfect size for 4 120mm fans

Been there, done that...temps sucked. Basic reason is, tranny coolers are condenser type rads and are highly inefficient at cooling because not all the water is being cooled. There seem to be a lot of new ppl posting "questionable" ideas that the old timers have already tried/been through as of late. I'll post this bit of info found in the Sticky titled "Guide To WaterCooling and Leak Testing - ALL New WaterCooler's Read Before Posting!"

3. Radiator / Fans
The radiator is an essential part of a watercooling system, as it removes the heat in the water deposited form the waterblocks and the pump. Without it the system would overheat in a matter of seconds. Radiators come in many different shapes and sizes. Some are better than others, but it all depends on application and the fans chosen. There are two types of radiators that are commonly used in watercooling setups. The first are the purpose built radiators that are designed to accommodate 120mm fans (some also use 80mm fans) and have different types of hose barbs for a myriad of applications. The second are heatercores. Heatercores are the heating elements used in car heating systems. There are plus and minus’ to both solutions that I will discuss.

Before I continue with explaining the types of radiators there are a few basic terms used to describe radiators that should be explained. The first commonly used term that is often confused or misunderstood is "passes". All radiators can be described in terms of passes. Passes are essentially how many directions the water goes in the radiator while being cooled. Generally watercooling radiators are 1 or 2 passes. The higher the number of passes the more restriction due to having the water change flow direction and that generally the area the water has to flow (per pass) in higher pass radiators is smaller. For a graphical explanation of "Passes" take a look at THIS picture.

The second bit of terminology is "Rows". Rows refer to the number of flow tubes the radiator has, with regards to depth. By depth I am referring to the thickness of the radiator in the direction of the airflow, and not the water channels. The picture HERE shows a CoolRad 12-T which is dual row. Each row looks like a column of elliptical holes. A single row radiator would be one column of those holes, and would be accordingly about 50% the thickness.

Now back to the radiator types.

The purpose built radiators have their plus’, and their minus’. They are a good choice for their ease of use and good performance, but they do not provide the absolute maximum performance. There are a few reasons for this. Mainly it is due to their basic design. Because they are purpose built there is not the essential equipment to build the radiators as they are made in car radiators. The way that they are designed causes two pitfalls. The first is that they are a bit more restrictive, and the second is that they are not as efficient at heat transfer. A dual 120mm (uses 2 120mm case fans on each side) version will run anywhere from 45 to 100 dollars. Now you may wonder why you would want one of these radiators after hearing what I said, but do not be worried. These radiators will perform admirably in near any system if used correctly. They are great for the user who wants a very clean looking system and doesn’t want to hassle with having to modify a radiator to get it to work in their rig. The purpose built radiators come in two general styles. “Low Noise” and “High Noise”. The low noise fans are optimized for fans like the Yate-Loon D12SL-12 and other quiet, 25mm thick fans. These radiators are either thin, like the Black Ice Pro’s from HWLabs or have a lowered fin count (~12 Fins Per Inch) to reduce the airflow restriction. The reduced airflow restriction allows the quieter fans to be used without suffering great performance losses. Conversely, the “high noise” radiators are designed for fans around 100CFM and 38mm thick. These fans can cope with the higher fin count (17-25 FPI). The high noise radiators do have a higher maximum performance potential, but at a sacrifice of noise. If noise does not bother you, then a high noise radiator is the way to go, otherwise stick with the low noise radiators. For a complete listing of these radiators check out my Parts guide HERE.

The big difference between the “high noise” and “low noise” radiators is the fin density which I mentioned earlier. Here is a simple image demonstrating the difference in fin density between the two styles.

”High Noise” – High Fins Per Inch


”Low Noise” – Low Fins PerInch



The radiators come in 7 different sizes; Single 80mm, Dual 80mm, Single 90mm, Dual 90mm, Single 120mm, Dual 120mm and Triple 120mm. (Thermochill came out with a 160mm radiator for 120mm fans as of May 205. It performs slightly worse than a dual 120mm radiator) The mm sizing refers to the fan that is being used and the single, dual and triple refers to the number of fans that can be attached to each side of the radiators face. I should mention that anyone building a system that is either overclocked or uses both a GPU and a CPU waterblock will want to stay away from the 80mm sized radiators. They do not dissipate a great deal of heat and would give abnormally high temperatures for a watercooling system. I would suggest a single 120mm as the minimum for a single CPU setup, a dual 120mm for a CPU and GPU setup, and a triple 120mm for those who want the absolute maximum performance that these types of radiators can provide.

UPDATE: As of October 2005 Thermochill has released the PA series purpose built radiator and for fans below 100CFM they are the pinnacle of performance, surpassing all other radiators including heatercores in sub 100CFM (per fan) applications.

The other type of radiator that is quickly gaining popularity is the heatercore. These, as I mentioned previously, are merely air conditioning heating elements which have hot water pumped into them and air pushed through them to give you warm air in your car. In our watercooling loops we are essentially doing the same thing, but with much lower water temperatures. These heatercores are excellent for watercooling as they are highly efficient and provide the absolute maximum cooling per size that you can get. They are also very low restriction which lends themselves well to our purposes. They come in various sizes, suitable for a single 120mm fan, dual 120mm fans, and quad 120mm fans. The other thing that is great about them is that they are DIRT cheap. You can pick a dual 120mm one up for less than 20 dollars at your local auto parts store. The most commonly used one is the 2-302 for the 77 Bonneville with AC. A variant of this is the 2-199, which is also for the 77 Bonneville, but is without AC. As good as they are, there are issues to be had with heatercores. First, they need to be modified for use in watercooling. They start out with large copper (sometimes brass) fittings which can either be hack sawed off to the desired length (if your tubing is the appropriate size), or if you’re in need of a different fitting size, you must take a blow torch and remove the tubes all together, and place your own fittings on. To do so requires copper soldering (brazing) knowledge. The other issue with them is that you cannot just mount the fans to the face of them. They need to be used with a shroud. What the shroud does is move the fans away from the face of the radiator, thus lowering turbulence and the large dead spot in the middle of the fan. This does two things. It increases airflow through the heatercore, and reduces noise. There are various manufactures of shrouds. The best of which is sold by the Xtreme Systems forum member “Weapon”. The shrouds are partially manufactured by our forum member "Malph", and the finishing job is done by "Weapon". They sell shrouds for the 2-302 and 2-199. I currently am using one of their 2-199 shrouds, and can attest to its superb quality. There are several other shrouds which can be had over at www.dangerden.com and www.vouyermods.com . I also have the dangerden shroud for the 2-199. It is nice, but is not nearly as effective as the “Weapon” shroud. As with the thicker purpose built radiators, the heatercores are incredibly thick, and thus provide very high airflow resistance. Because of this, more powerful fans are needed. 38mm fans are a must when dealing with heatercores. For most people a 38mm thick fan at 12volts is too noisy, so running them at 7 volts is a good option. Their high airflow restriction would classify the heatercores in the “high noise” category of radiators, because if low noise fans are used with them, performance will greatly suffer.

I mentioned earlier that there was also a quad 120mm heatercore. Craig and Weapon over at XS dubbed it the monstercore. This thing has 2x the performance of a 2-302 or 2-199 and anywhere from 2-3x the performance of a dual 120mm purpose built radiator. This item is not generally used by anyone, but Weapon does also make a shroud for it if anyone is interested. There are several places that heatercores can be purchased. As I mentioned earlier, you can get one at your local auto parts store, but it will be unmodified. Doing the necessary modifications is not something that excites most users who are new to watercooling.

Thankfully there is an alternative. There are several sites online that sell pre-modified heatercores. Among them are the aforementioned danger den, vouyermods, and other various sites. Weapon also sells modified 2-302 heatercores with 1/2inch and 5/8inch fittings in any color. Pricing on modified heatercores ranges from 35-50 dollars.

As of April 2006, Weapon is not currently producing heatercore style radiators, therefore anyone looking to buy a heatercore will have to purchase it through DangerDen or Vouyermods. More information about these companies is available in my stores guide located HERE
A basic rule of thumb here. If you have warm air pumping out of your radiator that means that it is NOT up to spec and NEEDS to be upgraded and/or more powerful fans used.

3b. Radiators to Stay Away From

Now that I have gone over which of the radiators that would be suitable for watercooling, I feel that I should warn potential watercoolers of which radiators to stay away from. Several years ago, condenser style radiators, which are used for refrigeration systems, were popular when we did not know better. Since then, they have lost their popularity, but they still seem to be alive and kicking in certain parts of Europe due to incredibly strong misinformation on the part of manufactures. Their popularity is what motivated me to write this section of the guide.



Anyway, back on topic. To avoid these condenser style radiators we need to know a bit more about them. First off, they can easily be spotted by the numerous 180 degree bends of tubing on both ends. Secondly, you can spot them by their characteristic round tubes. The last common characteristic is their incredibly high fin density which is designed for VERY powerful fans. The prime example of these radiators is the Mora2 which is pictured above. You can see the numerous 180 degree turns on it, which creates an incredible amount of restriction for the pump leading to VERY low flowrates. What you can also notice is the round tubes. The round tubes provide less than adequate cooling efficiency because less of the water is close to the walls of the tube, unlike the flat tube radiators which I described earlier. To better show how much more efficient flat tube radiators are, look at the picture below. The blue parts are the cooler water, being cooled by the sides of the tube, and the red is the warmer water, which is insulated from the cooling effect of the walls by the water closer to the tubing wall.



While I didn’t spend much time describing the condenser style radiators, I hope that I got the point across as to why they are so poor for watercooling use.

It seems not many are reading these resources.

look for the redline water wetter i think it has an anticorrosive agent in it and it doesnt hinder performance

Water wetter was also used a long time ago, it was found to build up on parts over time and hurt thermal transfer, it was also very difficult to get rid of, especially from rads. It fell out of favor after this was found out, and now it looks like a few ppl are insisting on repeating mistakes of the past. Don't do it, save yourself the headache.

[Alexontherocks]

thanks for the post waterlogged...I had read that found it useful. The information in it essentially proves that the size and shape of water radiators in cars is indeed very suitable. The major concern is flow and pressure drop and the effect of mixing metals.

- In regards to the flow I do not have a problem, the sheer size of the radiator will be sufficient for passive cooling and the size is just perfect to be mounted against the wall.

- In regards to the galvanic corrosion I gather that G12 is suitable. The ratio should be higher than 1:10 leaning towards 3:10 or as you suggested even 4:10.

I would like to have some info on the effects of possible effect performance wise of that mixture on my loop (planned loop).

+ if everything is going to be allright and I indeed achieve a very good dt between idle and load I might try using a 600w peltier module I found on ebay ( http://cgi.ebay.it/CELLA-DI-PELTIER-...742.m153.l1262 ). I should easily get sub-zero temps and with no fans( the x1950 pro will get passive cooling - I will not be playing games in a while with exams coming up)

[Alexontherocks]

small update: I spoke to a online seller of radiators and he told me that he has in stock some all copper radiators compatible with modern tractors. The price is very reasonable (and with some all italian negotiating might even go lower ). This maybe settles the problem with the radiator. I will try to have the impeller made.

Speaking to this seller it would appear that small industries and labs also have a need for this sort of solution. I was particularly intrigued by the fact that a request for a copper radiator was made by an employee at a research facility specialised in high energy compact lasers. To think that I would use the same radiator to cool my q6600 is amazing! Also the fact that I removed the IHS form my q6600 makes it even more worthwhile.

However improved the situation may be it would still prove useful for someone to discuss the effects of a 4:10 ratio of coolant and water in high end water loops.

Thanks for all you answers.

[Alexontherocks]

second small update: 1 radiator from a mercedes and 1 from an abarth modified FIAT







sizes are 57x38cm (mercedes)
63x36cm (abarth fiat)

I would go for the abarth one...I am also waiting fro a reply from an australian seller regarding a toyota corolla radiator..




would you wait for the toyota one? All in all (cost + shipment to Italy) it would not be much more expensive (if not cheaper than the mercedes). I want only the best in this system so I am going big.

[aspire.comptech]

The one in the first couple pictures seems to have an insane number of fins per inch and looks very restrictive airflow wise.

I wouldn't recommend it.

[madmaxx]

if you are so intent on using a car radiator you should try to source one from an older vehicle as they would more than likely be made of copper/brass, newer rads will all be made of ALU/plastic

[Maglin]

if you are so intent on using a car radiator you should try to source one from an older vehicle as they would more than likely be made of copper/brass, newer rads will all be made of ALU/plastic

I was just about to say this. But the downside is that it will probably already be leaking. The end tanks are usually crimped on with a gasket between the core and end tank.

As for the fins/inch I wouldn't worry about it. The radiator is so hough that thermal transfer issues will be very moot. You can put everything thing in your rig under one loop and still not do much to the radiator. People used to use heater cores back in the early days of W/Cing. It's funny how people are starting to go back to the automotive solutions. But they are way to big and require to much work. Don't forget you have to do something about the filler neck on the radiator. You can't just use a radiator cap on it with a very large pump you are thinking about. I would imagine that internal pressures will rise above 16 PSI or 1.1 bar which will be about the highest pressure cap you will be able to find for a radiator.

And as for cars colling systems using mixed metals and it not doing damage. That is totally wrong. It's not maintaining your car that does damage. Coolant has a lifespan and if not replaced becomes acidic and starts eating away at the aluminum components in the system. It's also a main reason for cars to develop coolant leaks. That and GM designers that can't design a V-6 that doesn't leak coolant.

[aspire.comptech]

I was just about to say this. But the downside is that it will probably already be leaking. The end tanks are usually crimped on with a gasket between the core and end tank.

As for the fins/inch I wouldn't worry about it. The radiator is so hugh that thermal transfer issues will be very moot. You can put everything thing in your rig under one loop and still not do much to the radiator. People used to use heater cores back in the early days of W/Cing. It's funny how people are starting to go back to the automotive solutions. But they are way to big and require to much work. Don't forget you have to do soemthing about the filler neck on the radiator. You can't just use a radiator cap on it with a very large pump you are thinking about. I would imagine that internal pressures will rise above 16 PSI or 1.1 bar which will be about the highest pressure cap you will be able to find for a radiator.

And as for cars colling systerms using mixed metals and it not doing damage. That is totally wrong. It's not maintaining your car that does damage. Coolant has a lifespane and if not replaced becomes acidick and starts eating away at the aluminum components in the system. It's also a main reason for cars to develope coolant leaks. That and GM designers that can't design a V-6 that doesn't leak coolant.

Theres that and theres there are idiots like the guy my dad bought my first car from who used straight water as engine coolant.

Wound up corroding a freeze plug away. Nice $500 repair bill after owning the car for a month to replace that and the coolant pump from because of all the crud that was in the coolant.

[sirheck]

I was just about to say this. But the downside is that it will probably already be leaking. The end tanks are usually crimped on with a gasket between the core and end tank.

As for the fins/inch I wouldn't worry about it. The radiator is so hugh that thermal transfer issues will be very moot. You can put everything thing in your rig under one loop and still not do much to the radiator. People used to use heater cores back in the early days of W/Cing. It's funny how people are starting to go back to the automotive solutions. But they are way to big and require to much work. Don't forget you have to do soemthing about the filler neck on the radiator. You can't just use a radiator cap on it with a very large pump you are thinking about. I would imagine that internal pressures will rise above 16 PSI or 1.1 bar which will be about the highest pressure cap you will be able to find for a radiator.

And as for cars colling systerms using mixed metals and it not doing damage. That is totally wrong. It's not maintaining your car that does damage. Coolant has a lifespane and if not replaced becomes acidick and starts eating away at the aluminum components in the system. It's also a main reason for cars to develope coolant leaks. That and GM designers that can't design a V-6 that doesn't leak coolant.

[Maglin]

Sorry for the bad spelling. 12 hr day at work and wife was nagging. Yeah strait water in automotive is VERY BAD. Blocks are almost all made from iron. Iron and water create rust which just destroys everything. Their are some aluminum blocks out their but then they operating temps are usually around 205*f which is pretty close to boiling which is very bad. It's a fine line at times I tell ya.

[sirheck]

Sorry for the bad spelling. 12 hr day at work and wife was nagging. Yeah straigt water in automotive is VERY BAD. Blocks are almost all made from iron. Iron and water create rust which just destroys everything. Their are some aluminum blocks out their but then they operating temps are usually around 205*f which is pretty close to boiling which is very bad. It's a fine line at times I tell ya.

One thing, and its not recommended.
You can run straight water in a sys (automotive) at upwards of 230f
or so. Maybe 240f.

Only for short periods of time.
Like until you could get the proper mix of anti-freeze.

[madmaxx]

the downside is that it will probably already be leaking. The end tanks are usually crimped on with a gasket between the core and end tank.

on an ALU rad yes the tanks are crimped on but copper/brass is soldered

[Maglin]

Well I just replaced a hough copper radiator today in a 77 t-bird. I'll have a look at the old one tomarrow and see, but I'm pretty sure most are not soldered. I could be wrong though.

[Alexontherocks]

also the core is ALU and tanks plastic for all 3

- Regarding the mtetal the seller confirmed that the core was made of copper (couldn't the outer surface have been colour changed to grey?)

- Does the fact that there is plastic affect safety pressure wise?


I calculated pressure and it should be that of an iwaki so around 14 psi. There is the problem of adpating barbs and closing the filler port. What compund could I use to make a watertight and strong bond between the adapter barb (for my 14/11 mm tygon tubung ) and the flow ports on the rad?

Ok: OTher update. If I wanted a builder to build one for me (forget the price) what instructions should I give? He asked me for the size of the radial mass, the number of fins and elements.

[Waterlogged]

second small update: 1 radiator from a mercedes and 1 from an abarth modified FIAT







sizes are 57x38cm (mercedes)
63x36cm (abarth fiat)

I would go for the abarth one...I am also waiting fro a reply from an australian seller regarding a toyota corolla radiator..




would you wait for the toyota one? All in all (cost + shipment to Italy) it would not be much more expensive (if not cheaper than the mercedes). I want only the best in this system so I am going big.

I'd go for the Corolla rad, it looks very similar (although not exactly the same) to the Koyo racing rad. It's also copper, so it gets a big .

[Alexontherocks]

the problem is I would'nt want to spend much on shipment form Australia to here. Honeslty we have toyotas too...it is really my last resort. If I wanted to design my killer rad, what specifications would you suggest? I thought: 20/25 elements (tubing) encased in a frame of 70x40cm. I am unsure as to the number of fins though. Also I would have the builder streamline it so that there are only the ncessary plug holes for my tubing and nothing else (should look very neat too). what do you think?

[Kurz]

I went the car radiator route let me say this.
Its going to be harder to do maintenance.
Harder to bleed when changing out the water.
I needed someone to hold the radiator while i was trying to bleed it.
The pump wont turn on unless you have a relay or a power strip with a switch.
It will make your computer bulker.
The pump is pretty loud (I have a Iwaki 30 RZ though.)


Going with a PA120.3 and a few fans actually made the system quieter as a whole.
I can actually sleep in the same room when its on, but before the pump kept me awake (I had Petra's gel Stuff to mute the vibration but it was still loud).


And I can have just one fan running when I am sleeping keeps the temps fine for BitTorrent.

[Alexontherocks]

Building a relay switch is not a problem. The fact that it is bulky neither since the radiator will be neatly postioned under the desk. Regarding bleeding I still have to try.

I am still looking into building a potentiometre. However it would seem that it is slightly more difficult than predicted.

[STEvil]

thanks for the post waterlogged...I had read that found it useful. The information in it essentially proves that the size and shape of water radiators in cars is indeed very suitable. The major concern is flow and pressure drop and the effect of mixing metals.

- In regards to the flow I do not have a problem, the sheer size of the radiator will be sufficient for passive cooling and the size is just perfect to be mounted against the wall.

Flow is more pump related. What will you be using for a pump?

If you do not leave enough space between the radiator and the wall you will not have enough airflow to achieve "convection". If you place the bottom of the radiator against the wall and the top 7-8 inches away you will probably have better efficiency for convection than if it were standing straight up.

[Alexontherocks]

I will be using a 1/4 hp pump with 10m head pressure and 140l/m of flow (that is 8400 litres per hour. This is enough I think. I believe your suggestion of tilting the radiator is sound. I will definetely look into that. I am still waiting for the pump to be here.

Anyway I am also waiting for a cost projection for building my custom radiator. it will be 70x40cm made of copper. 8mm barbs. Streamlined so there won't be any odd looking bits and pieces.

If the builder is too expensive then I will buy a koyo radiator and have it shipped.

d'tek fuzion is my chosen waterblock.

[Alexontherocks]

I have decided to buy the radiator from a radiator seller. No luck having it made. Well at least I tried.

I should have the radiator in a couple of weeks. I have received the pump and it is MASSIVE yet silent. Iwaki the pinnacle of performance? I disagree.....check it out:




that mouse is not small I must add..

I have tested it and it is around 40/45db. I can also use a potentiometre and still have performance to spare..

[Vinas]

I ask forgiveness for my impatience.....
My loop would consist of ek supreme - super pump (should be a univer) - and car radiator.

Isn't there anyway I can get aluminium and copper to work together?

thanks!

Moderate to heavily diluted antifreeze will work. Dilute with pure distilled water... I'm using 80 to 1 ratio distilled/water. Some people like 90 to 1 but for mixed metals I'd recommend a little lower. With the TEC I'm dissipating about ~415 watts of heat total. Raises my room temp from 25C to 30C in about 10 minutes... The more antifreeze the better corrosion protection but your temps will suffer a bit since water is able to transfer more heat than the glycol. This is why you need to find a nice rad/heatercore.

PS hopefully that pump doesn't leak! Either way it needs a washing/buffing... eeek

[Alexontherocks]

the pump is perfectly watertight (tested). It does need a little cleaning but it is just dust, no rust anywhere important. 8400l/h, 10m head....can't wait to have it running

How much would you say an aluminium radiator looses against a copper one performance wise?

P.s. you are absolutely certain that you don't have any corrosio going on in your system?

How much would you say I would loose by using antifreeze in terms of performance?