John Carmack on id Tech 6, Ray Tracing, Consoles, Physics and more

[Piotrsama]

I just found a very long interview.... 10 days old, but I didn't find it posted, so here it goes.

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=532

In recent months a lot of discussion has been circulating about the roles of ray tracing, accelerated physics and multiple-GPU configurations in the future of PC and console gaming. Here at PC Perspective we have heard from Intel on the subject many times and just recently sat down with NVIDIA's Chief Scientist David Kirk to discuss the ray tracing and rasterization debate.

Many of our readers, as well as comments across the web, asked for feedback from the developers. It makes sense - these are the people that are going to be spending their money and time developing games to sell on next-generation architecture so surely their opinions would be more grounded in reality than a hardware company trying to push their technological advantages. With that in mind, we spent some time talking with John Carmack, the legendary programmer at id Software famous for Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake and the various engines that power them. What started out as a simple Q&A about Intel's ray tracing plans turned into a discussion on the future of gaming hardware, both PC and console, possible software approaches to future rendering technology, multiple-GPU and multi-core CPU systems and even a possible insight into id Tech 6, the engine that will replace the id Tech 5 / Rage title.

The information that John discussed with us is very in-depth and you'll probably want to block off some time to fully digest the data. You might also want to refresh your knowledge of octrees and voxels. Also note that in some areas the language of this text might seem less refined than you might expect simply because we are using a transcription of a recorded conversation.

[....]

[STEvil]

ah, more talk of voxels.... cant believe we dont have them used more yet.

[Jacky]

wow, after reading all the raytracing articles I can only say that I am eagerly awaiting Intel's ray tracing demos using larabee.
bring it on, the competiton!

and it's also interesting to see that carmack thinks that intel may pull it off just by being faster than the competiton hardware-wise, even though raytracing is slow as hell.

[bigdaddy25fb]

John Carmack...the man is a genius...

[RaZz!]

[..] even though raytracing is slow as hell.

and what about postprocessing effects (like blur, hdr, depth of field, etc...) with raytracing? the realtime raytracing scenes etc. that have been shown on the web had the graphics quality from 5 years ago - totally sterile, no effects at all, which makes it look like plastic... i'm wondering if it's even possible to use postprocessing with raytracing?

[safan80]

I just found a very long interview.... 10 days old, but I didn't find it posted, so here it goes.

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=532

I didn't post it because I figured people here wouldn't care, and besides there really wasn't anything we haven't heard from carmack before.

[n-sanity]

Oooh the voxels return!
And good timing too, since these use pure processing power for brute square root call calculations and gaussian truncating...finally someone steps up to intel

Lol either way - raytracing/voxel rendering: intel wins... (unless amd can magically pull a competent cpu out their arse..)!

[iddqd]

and what about postprocessing effects (like blur, hdr, depth of field, etc...) with raytracing? the realtime raytracing scenes etc. that have been shown on the web had the graphics quality from 5 years ago - totally sterile, no effects at all, which makes it look like plastic... i'm wondering if it's even possible to use postprocessing with raytracing?

Well, you could still have all your shader tricks. Some would probably have to be modified - and some will be replaced completely in a raytraced world (for example, HDR/bloom) but yeah.

Actually, the shader bag of tricks keeps growing over the years. I think very soon, you're going to be able to do just about anything with shaders, and not even have to worry about raytracing anymore.

At any rate, raytracing isn't that important. I think fully destructible environments would be more fun.

[Syn.]

I see nothing genius about his work, he is just using simple logic to combine the benefits of Ray Tracing with Rasterisation. Use Ray Tracing for foreground effects and then Rasterisation for background effects. I am surprised it took someone so long to come up with that.

To dismiss physics so easily is his biggest mistake yet. Improved rendering of the same game only improves its looks, the gameplay remains the same.

Besides that i think he needs to update his ideology, we arent in Quake age anymore.

[BrownTown]

Well, you could still have all your shader tricks. Some would probably have to be modified - and some will be replaced completely in a raytraced world (for example, HDR/bloom) but yeah.

Actually, the shader bag of tricks keeps growing over the years. I think very soon, you're going to be able to do just about anything with shaders, and not even have to worry about raytracing anymore.

At any rate, raytracing isn't that important. I think fully destructible environments would be more fun.

The thing about raytracing is that all these complicated and stunning effects just drop right out of the bad so to speak. Raytracing is so elegently simply its incredible, all the complicated shaders and reflections and refractions and various other effects come for "free" or with minimal extra coding. Because reaytracing describes how the light really works (sorta) all you have to do is model some basic equations and suddenly you get amazing results. I don't know if anyone here has ever written a raytracing engine before, but I wrote one for my computer graphics class (and i'm a EE not a CS major), and its really quite simple, obviously results were not amazing or anything (niether was efficiency), but I was able to get several object types (spheres, cubes, and triagnles(which could easily be used to make complex meshes)), but also reflection and refraction rays, shadow rays, bump maps, procedural textures etc. It really is dead simple how it works, the problem is just that the current way of hacking everything together is more efficent (but far less elegent and less accurate as well). I'm not saying raytracing will win out anytime soon, but the only thing holding it back is processor power, it beats what we have now in everything but framerates.

[iddqd]

The thing about raytracing is that all these complicated and stunning effects just drop right out of the bad so to speak. Raytracing is so elegently simply its incredible, all the complicated shaders and reflections and refractions and various other effects come for "free" or with minimal extra coding. Because reaytracing describes how the light really works (sorta) all you have to do is model some basic equations and suddenly you get amazing results. I don't know if anyone here has ever written a raytracing engine before, but I wrote one for my computer graphics class (and i'm a EE not a CS major), and its really quite simple, obviously results were not amazing or anything (niether was efficiency), but I was able to get several object types (spheres, cubes, and triagnles(which could easily be used to make complex meshes)), but also reflection and refraction rays, shadow rays, bump maps, procedural textures etc. It really is dead simple how it works, the problem is just that the current way of hacking everything together is more efficent (but far less elegent and less accurate as well). I'm not saying raytracing will win out anytime soon, but the only thing holding it back is processor power, it beats what we have now in everything but framerates.

Meh, not really. Sure, you can't have 100% accurate shadows, but who even notices that? You can't have multiple reflections being shot back and forth, but again, who cares?

I wish there was a "good gameplay" shader.

[STEvil]

Oooh the voxels return!
And good timing too, since these use pure processing power for brute square root call calculations and gaussian truncating...finally someone steps up to intel

Lol either way - raytracing/voxel rendering: intel wins... (unless amd can magically pull a competent cpu out their arse..)!

I see nothing genius about his work, he is just using simple logic to combine the benefits of Ray Tracing with Rasterisation. Use Ray Tracing for foreground effects and then Rasterisation for background effects. I am surprised it took someone so long to come up with that.

To dismiss physics so easily is his biggest mistake yet. Improved rendering of the same game only improves its looks, the gameplay remains the same.

Besides that i think he needs to update his ideology, we arent in Quake age anymore.

Combine ideas.

Ray tracing for foreground, Voxels cover the background allowing fully destructible environments!

[BrownTown]

The problem with having two different ways of doing everything is that you have to store two sets of data for alot of stuff and have to process alot of data that will probably be thrown away later. I do agree though that ray tracing will first start out as being an overlay to what we have now, but I would say more like highlights and stuff. Maybe not even the rendering part, but the light transport or a simple version of photon mapping or the like. Not really sure what all you can do though its mostly over my head.

[Jakko]

John Carmack...the man is a genius...

John Carmack, isn't he the one claiming a storyline in game is like a storyline in :banana::banana::banana::banana:? It has to be there but noone cares about it, so no effort should go into it?

Genius my ass.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Uh, the man (if not a genius) is exceptionally smart. Knock the plot/art of id software all you want--he's not creating that. While not the deepest, most creative, or most encompassing, id games always had (and arguably still) the most technically sound engine.

I look forward to the days when my space flight can run Quake

http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home

Anyone who knows anything about the video game past cannot deny the man's contributions to them.

[deathman20]

Voxel's \o/!!! ABOUT TIME

Ray Tracing... while I feel iffy about this since it does take ALOT of power to handle, even some nice dedicated render cards for raytracing costs $$$ to do it quickly. Of course thats dependent on how much detail and that is going into it. It will be intresting never the less and can't wait to see something come out about it that we can actually see or play with to see the differences with and without it, on hardware that supports it and on hardware that doesn't support it. That will be the key factor in everything, making a statement that it looks better, and works alot faster on X hardware, overall and not some "demo".

[Swatrecon_]

Ok, maybe this is a stupid question, but what is raytracing? And why would HDR/Bloom be affected by it?

[DilTech]

John Carmack, isn't he the one claiming a storyline in game is like a storyline in :banana::banana::banana::banana:? It has to be there but noone cares about it, so no effort should go into it?

Genius my ass.

John Carmack is also pretty much a rocket scientist, and was once considered by microsoft to be their biggest threat as their games pretty much ran in their own operating system. He pretty much does single handedly what it takes other companies years to do with a full crew.

How is he NOT a genius?

[deathman20]

John Carmack is also pretty much a rocket scientist, and was once considered by microsoft to be their biggest threat as their games pretty much ran in their own operating system. He pretty much does single handedly what it takes other companies years to do with a full crew.

How is he NOT a genius?

Exactly he is a genius... He knows his stuff and makes some crazy software.

[Jakko]

Because he is a smartass that has his own (dumb) opinion about some subjects that degrade the quality of games in the entire games industry because so many see him as a guru and take his opinions into consideration when doing their own job.

He doesn't have it all right, yet some act as if he is some all-knowing guru.

[Monkeywoman]

Ok, maybe this is a stupid question, but what is raytracing? And why would HDR/Bloom be affected by it?

Ray tracing is a general technique from geometrical optics of modeling the path taken by light by following rays of light as they interact with optical surfaces. It is used in the design of optical systems, such as camera lenses, microscopes, telescopes and binoculars. The term is also applied to mean a specific rendering algorithmic approach in 3D computer graphics, where mathematically-modelled visualisations of programmed scenes are produced using a technique which follows rays from the eyepoint outward, rather than originating at the light sources. It produces results similar to ray casting and scanline rendering, but facilitates more advanced optical effects, such as accurate simulations of reflection and refraction, and is still efficient enough to frequently be of practical use when such high quality output is sought. Ray tracing may also be applied in other areas of science and engineering, such as in the calculation of radio signal paths.

source; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_tracing

heres a vid showing GT:HD which uses ray tracing http://www.gametrailers.com/player/19700.html

[shiznit93]

John Carmack, isn't he the one claiming a storyline in game is like a storyline in :banana::banana::banana::banana:? It has to be there but noone cares about it, so no effort should go into it?

Genius my ass.

He's right, story doesn't matter. Narrative does, but they are not the same. If you want a good story go read a book.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Game quality degradation? If this about you having bought a Physx card and the fact he doesn't like it........

Video game quality methods he's helped to improve:

-smoothing sidescrollers on the PC (Commander Keen)
-mass release of the early first person shooters providing the 3D perspective (Catacombs 3D, Hovertank)
-VGA graphics in video games (Wolfenstein 3D)
-multileveled 3D fps levels (Doom)
-modem play (Doom)
-texture mapping and wall height difference (Doom)
-semi outdoor environments (Doom)
-standardizing 3D acceleration for games (VQuake and GLQuake)
-client-side prediction in network code (Quakeworld)
-multitexture (Quake)
-moddability (Doom, Quake and its SDK's leading to a host of other games that people love and providing the tools to teach people how to make games)
-in-game command consoles (Quake)
-aiding programmers of tomorrow (open sourcing the Quake series)
-helping develop standards for video game cards with Nvidia and Ati to make development easier
-helping provide cross-portability to games (there's a reason everybody compiles Quake on everything to test its 3D capabilities)
-forcing the gaming industry to drop software rendering (Quake 3)
-organizing LAN parties for fans (Quakecon)
-directly listening to what his fans want (Quakecon)
-taking studios under its wing to help them make games (Splash Damage)
-currently branching out into all platforms (his technology runs on everything and he's still developing across a bunch of different ones. See Orcs and Elves for his handheld work)
-compression of large landscapes to run efficiently and design easily (megatexture for Quake Wars)
-forging the way on free fps games (ET and Quake Zero)


H3ll, even notables such as Bill Roper recognize his abilities:

"Carmack is synonymous with technology, and his continued work at id has kept him at the top of this field. While we pay a great deal of respect to those who actually craft the worlds and hone the mechanics of the games we play, John Carmack has carved himself a place in gaming history for creating equally compelling technology with which the ideas of designers can be realized."

http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/...61/index2.shtm

You'll also note Gamespy (which, coincidentally, wouldn't have even been founded without Quake) lists him as #3 on their top 30 influential people of the gaming industry.


If you want to knock his games, his style, or the fact that he's a "has been" go ahead. One could make a case for it. Though, nobody has to "have it all right" to be a genius. Many of the fathers of science got things wrong (ie. Dalton and the atom composition), but nobody derides their work because we can still use it even today. To deny Carmack his technical intelligence and what he has done for the gaming industry borders on ignorance.

[Jakko]

He's right, story doesn't matter. Narrative does, but they are not the same. If you want a good story go read a book.

It's really not that black and white, story and narrative fade into eachother. Without creating a sense of purpose, a player can have loads of fun but still wonder why certain things need to be accomplished and why they can't be accomplished in another way.
John Carmack's games fail in this sense. Understandable, after seeing his comments about the importance of a good storyline in games.

[Arkangyl]

I felt a sense of purpose in Quake & Doom, it wasn't deep, there weren't massive conspiracies or big plot twists that had me wondering what was next.

The hit the fan and I got a big gun, and it was fun as hell...

Some of us play games to escape for a little bit, and escaping to a place where I have to pay attention to plot details doesn't always lead to an enjoyable experience.

If I want to think I read a book, if I want to shoot some zombies I fire up a game.