Koolance's Response to Hardware Labs "The Copper Radiator Myth"

[serialk11r]

Since you obviously can't read - this post will be of little help to you but I'll do it anyway. In koolance's particular test, they ran the coolant at 85c and airflow at ~320CFM LOL. Now, if they performed this test in an environment that we actually see in a computer (not in a car - that testing was done automotive style) which would be something like 30c coolant temp 23C ambient temp and ~80 - 150 total CFM through the rad. I assure you results would be far different.

Eh he's a Koolance fanboy, no use :P

Is it just me or did I look into the radiators of cars at a car dealer and saw BRASS and COPPER???

[Sparky]

They proved it... What did your company do?

True, they proved their rads work better in an environment that has nothing to do with PC cooling. They pump 85 degree C water through it (which I hope NEVER happens in a PC loop!) and used over 300CFM of air (which would take earblasting fans to do). If that is what you use your rads for, then by all means, use the koolance rads

[C'DaleRider]

You must be old to know that name. LoL.

They changed names to HP if i remember correctly. But packard Bell machines were awesome back in the days. Much better then sony vaios, and compaq's that were running around.

Only the IBM machines would be the ones to go over.


This was back in the days when circuit city was fighting good guys for electron store superiority. And when AOL chatting was hella addictive.

Wrong-o, my friend. Packard-Bell was in no way associated with HP..

A little history lesson of PB:

Packard Bell was an American radio manufacturer, founded in 1926, in Los Angeles, that later became a defense contractor and manufacturer of other consumer electronics, such as television sets. The company was acquired in 1968 by Teledyne.

In 1986, Beny Alagem and a group of investors bought the Packard Bell name from Teledyne and resurrected it as a manufacturer of low-cost personal computers.

However, they also gained a reputation for poor quality, a reputation that worsened in 1995 when it was accused of recycling used parts in PCs that it sold as new. In addition, Packard Bell frequently used motherboards and power supplies in unusual form factors (such as Intel's LPX form factor) that made replacement parts difficult or impossible to come by.

Packard Bell sometimes benefited from misplaced name recognition, with consumers (especially first-time computer buyers) and even some salespeople erroneously associating the company with others of similar name, such as Hewlett-Packard, Packard, Pacific Bell, and Bell Laboratories.

Packard Bell withdrew from the US market entirely in 2000, although it continues to be a popular brand in Europe.

[SDatl404]

That is why we are in agreement that the Koolance tests and its operating parameters are inapplicable, Cathar. It was Marci who was thanking them for Thermochill rads showing superior(?) results over the Black Ice GTStealth when said results would show otherwise.

That is also why as a policy, with the exception of Koolance, we don't play this sniping game. Its simply unethical.

It's about proving your product is superior. Do some "Real World" tests. Grab the best radiators from every corner and let them battle. Unless you have something to hide?

Personally I like BIX the best, because koolance is too proprietary. But it does perform the best so hopfully they will make a more standerdized radiator for us.

[Cathar]

which would be something like 30c coolant temp 23C ambient temp and ~80 - 150 total CFM through the rad. I assure you results would be far different.

Actually, more like 40-100CFM actual airflow, through a dual-core radiator, spans the range of tolerable fan noise levels for most people.

Unless you meant 80-150cfm rated fan powers (2 x 40cfm fans, up to 2 x 75cfm fans), but thats not the airflow through the radiator itself.

[elfy]

Grab the best radiators from every corner and let them battle. Unless you have something to hide?

gimme the money and i'll do the tests, unless /you/ have something to hide

[SDatl404]

Eh he's a Koolance fanboy, no use :P

Is it just me or did I look into the radiators of cars at a car dealer and saw BRASS and COPPER???

What do they sell for cars as upgrades??? Aluminum race radiator... Shhhh...

True, they proved their rads work better in an environment that has nothing to do with PC cooling. They pump 85 degree C water through it (which I hope NEVER happens in a PC loop!) and used over 300CFM of air (which would take earblasting fans to do). If that is what you use your rads for, then by all means, use the koolance rads

LoL.. If they perfom better that high up why wouldn't they perform better down low? Most of the people around here are all," Thermochill does best like this and best like that". For some reason they keep losing. So I am starting to think thermochills are all HYPE. Hype that most people areound here just bought into because all the "COOL" people liked them. Every test I have seen on a thermochill is unrealistic testing as well. Can anyone point out a REAL WORLD thermochill test? Maybe even one that battled koolance againest a thermochill? NOPE! Probably because thermochill is scared to mess with the king of cool.

[elfy]

What do they sell for cars as upgrades??? Aluminum race radiator... Shhhh...



LoL.. If they perfom better that high up why wouldn't ther perform better down low? Most of the people around here are all," Thermochill do best like this and best like that". For some reason they keep losing. So I am starting to think thermochill are all HYPE. That most people areound here just bought into because all the "COOL" people liked them. Every test I have seen on a thermochill is unrealistic testing as well. Can anyone point out a REAL WORLD thermochill test? Maybe even one that battled againest a thermochill? Probably because thermochill is scared to mess with the king of cool.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=77260

[Sparky]

LoL.. If they perfom better that high up why wouldn't ther perform better down low? Most of the people around here are all," Thermochill do best like this and best like that". For some reason they keep losing. So I am starting to think thermochill are all HYPE. That most people areound here just bought into because all the "COOL" people liked them. Every test I have seen on a thermochill is unrealistic testing as well. Can anyone point out a REAL WORLD thermochill test? Maybe even one that battled againest a thermochill? Probably because thermochill is scared to mess with the king of cool.

Because they aren't optimized for it? Just because something works really well at high airflow and high temps doesn't mean that will perform the same at low airflow and lower temps. Same goes with the other way. The thermochills (and Marci said this himself, or Cathar, I forget which) don't see any performance benefit above about 130CFM. Why? Because they have been optimized for lower airflow fans. And as for water temp, like I said, I hope you never have that hot of water flowing in your loop

Wish for it all you want, but there is no way that koolance is the "king of cool". BTW, I'm not a thermochill user, I have a swiftech rad. If it makes any difference. I'm not biased towards a thermochill since I've never owned one. But from all the other testing I've seen the thermochill wins until you get to really high airflow fans, then the margins disappear and others start taking the lead (IIRC the GTX pulls ahead at high airflow).

[C'DaleRider]

Eh he's a Koolance fanboy, no use :P

Is it just me or did I look into the radiators of cars at a car dealer and saw BRASS and COPPER???

As far as the brass/copper rads in cars, I really doubt you saw that in a new car. They almost exclusively use aluminum radiators.....weight considerations. A brass/copper rad would be just too darned heavy these days in the gas mileage consciousness of car design. You may still see auto trans aux. coolers with brass/copper designs, but even these are mostly aluminum. But I'm sure they'd go right back to copper and brass if the weight penalty wasn't so great.....when they used to use them, the radiators were a lot smaller in width....probably because they got better heat exchange out of them. And is it any wonder that the heater cores in cars are still copper and brass.....that's one place that the better and faster heat exchange does matter.....the passenger comfort zone.

Heck, to save weight, more than one auto maker has moved to plastic intake manifolds.....lighter than aluminum and easier to mold.



As for the Koolance fanboi, even around the big city of Atlanta, there are still hicks from the sticks who refuse to believe truth, even when beaten over the head with it. Shames me to even think he's from the same state I occupy.

And his sig:

"Koolance the undissputed "king of cool"..." Pity he cannot spell undisputed correctly......c'est la vie. Guess that's what you get when you have a good ole southern boy at the keyboard..........

[SDatl404]

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=77260

I only see thermochill temps. Then pressure drops comparisons. That means nothing without direct temp comparisons.

[elfy]

I only see thermochill temps. Then pressure drops comparisons. That means nothing without direct temp comparisons.

read it again, there's a big list of delta temps, differences between temp of water and temp of air. small delta t means the coolant is closer to air temp than large delta t

[Cathar]

That is why we are in agreement that the Koolance tests and its operating parameters are inapplicable, Cathar. It was Marci who was thanking them for Thermochill rads showing superior(?) results over the Black Ice GTStealth when said results would show otherwise.

Actually, I do agree with you. I saw the full results too, and wondered where Marci was coming from with that statement. Might have been oversight caused by lack of a morning coffee. Now that it's been flagged I'm sure he'll correct it as he does strive to ensure accuracy.

That is also why as a policy, with the exception of Koolance, we don't play this sniping game. Its simply unethical.

Overall, it's just ugly for any manufacturers to snipe on-line in public enthusiast forums. It denigrates the public face of all manufacturers involved. Yes, I know all too well from personal experience that the desire to answer a challenge is extremely hard to resist, but ultimately the best approach is to address it with an impassioned attitude and run the tests to educate the users as to the truth of the matter, rather than to duke it out on forums.

[elfy]

although i admit there's no koolance rads in there

[Sparky]

That's fine Cathar and hwlabs, there are a bunch of guys here who don't work for any of the rad companies who seem more than willing to duke it out for you guys lol

[elfy]

That's fine Cathar and hwlabs, there are a bunch of guys here who don't work for any of the rad companies who seem more than willing to duke it out for you guys lol

i was bored and he was easy prey, going bed now so will let the others battle

[SDatl404]

Because they aren't optimized for it? Just because something works really well at high airflow and high temps doesn't mean that will perform the same at low airflow and lower temps. Same goes with the other way. The thermochills (and Marci said this himself, or Cathar, I forget which) don't see any performance benefit above about 130CFM. Why? Because they have been optimized for lower airflow fans. And as for water temp, like I said, I hope you never have that hot of water flowing in your loop

Wish for it all you want, but there is no way that koolance is the "king of cool". BTW, I'm not a thermochill user, I have a swiftech rad. If it makes any difference. I'm not biased towards a thermochill since I've never owned one. But from all the other testing I've seen the thermochill wins until you get to really high airflow fans, then the margins disappear and others start taking the lead (IIRC the GTX pulls ahead at high airflow).

I wouldn't be worried about having hot water in my loop with a koolance. Now with a thermochill I would be quite fearfull for the safety of my pc.

You have admitted yourself that thermochills are inferior for performance based applications! Putting silence aside.

As far as the brass/copper rads in cars, I really doubt you saw that in a new car. They almost exclusively use aluminum radiators.....weight considerations. A brass/copper rad would be just too darned heavy these days in the gas mileage consciousness of car design. You may still see auto trans aux. coolers with brass/copper designs, but even these are mostly aluminum.

Heck, to save weight, more than one auto maker has moved to plastic intake manifolds.....lighter than aluminum and easier to mold.



As for the Koolance fanboi, even around the big city of Atlanta, there are still hicks from the sticks who refuse to believe truth, even when beaten over the head with it. Shames me to even think he's from the same state I occupy.

Please show me this truth your talking about? Sounds to me like your talking about yourself, based on the article at the begining of this thread. Easy with the TC pride bbboooyy.

[Sparky]

I wouldn't be worried about having hot water in my loop with a koolance. Now with a thermochill I would be quite fearfull for the safety of my pc.

LOL sure.... Just make sure to attach your 3 meter fan with 300+ cfm and 60 decibels of noise to it Oh, and don't forget your anti-corrosion stuff, that alu doesn't get along with copper blocks very well

You have admitted yourself that thermochills are inferior for performance based applications! Putting silence aside.

That's fine. I have no problem with that. But if people want something quiet - which many do, not everyone likes a leafblower for their PC - then thermochill is the way to go.

[Pete]

Is this soemthing of an international war now? Koolance are German right??

[SDatl404]

LOL sure.... Just make sure to attach your 3 meter fan with 300+ cfm and 60 decibels of noise to it Oh, and don't forget your anti-corrosion stuff, that alu doesn't get along with copper blocks very well



That's fine. I have no problem with that. But if people want something quiet - which many do, not everyone likes a leafblower for their PC - then thermochill is the way to go.

I am happy that we agree on this

When you're at the race track the cars, that are fast, aren't quiet

[Vapor]

When you're at the race track the cars, that are fast, aren't quiet

If you wanna go that fast, why use watercooling?

[serialk11r]

I am happy that we agree on this

When you're at the race track the cars, that are fast, aren't quiet

Okay then I think I have the perfect fan for you http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/de12gf.html
Order 4 of those, and come back to tell us how you like the 72db. Oh wait oops, wrong fan 4 of those is "only" 65db. I think you'll like this one more http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/de12tfexhisp.html
Oh oops I forgot, your water temps aren't at 80C so you won't "see any real world performance difference" therefore your expensive koolance rad (I know you paid a lot of money for it, stop trying to hide :P it cost MORE than a thermochill plus better pump) is "total junk" right?

[hwlabs]

One of our programs have actually yielded the possibility of using one of our racing cores (copper and brass) to generate down force due to its relatively lower pressure drop rating in relation to its HEx capacity. But that's something applicable when your car is running an average of 160MPH in between pit stops.

It isn't simply just about weight and cost in some aspects. Rally car radiators for instance are tuned to be optimized for a certain speed range in between acceleration.

There are actually more considerations as to why aluminum radiators have flourished in the automotive arena, but for the time being, it really is about costs.

Bill of Materials wise, Aluminum is CHEAPER than copper/brass radiators even if the process used to manufacture them is expensive. This is something Koolance wants its customers to believe. That's the reason why automotive manufacturers have shifted almost entirely to aluminum.

Koolance does not manufacture its own radiators, I'm waiting to get one of those and find the equivalent automotive part I suspect it shares a platform with on the market.

[Sparky]

I am happy that we agree on this

When you're at the race track the cars, that are fast, aren't quiet

Fine with me. But my PC isn't on a racetrack

I still hold by my first statement, just because the koolance rad seems to do better at extreme water temps and airflow doesn't mean it'll still win at typical PC water cooling water temps and airflow. But, to make sure, I have an idea... if the koolance rads are so much better than thermochill, and thermochill is supposed to be better than swiftech (which I have), why don't we do a little test? If you pay for the rad (and anti-corrosion additive) I'll put a similar-sized koolance rad in my PC and compare the temps. Oh wait, koolance doesn't have a standard triple rad. So much for that idea.

[SDatl404]

If you wanna go that fast, why use watercooling?

Because koolance hasn't put it out yet...