Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 567891011 LastLast
Results 176 to 200 of 259

Thread: Koolance's Response to Hardware Labs "The Copper Radiator Myth"

  1. #176
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by Cathar View Post
    If anyone wants to buy the Koolance radiator separately, for testing purposes, it can be done so here:
    http://www.koolance.com/shop/product...roducts_id=241

    Interesting. Plugged in the Koolance specs into the air-flow resistance calculator, and actually arrive at a value consistent (within 3%) of what is stated for their radiator. For the PA/GTS, the calculated values and the reported values disagree by a huge amount.
    Cathar, are you are basing the reported values indicated on the KATECH documentation?

    Looking at their radiator, it appears that the tubes would themselves be obstructing airflow to a certain degree.


  2. #177
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,922
    Quote Originally Posted by Cathar
    OK. Got them now. They're lying, unless they've managed to change the laws of physics.

    Their results are impossible.
    Nice work Cathar. As an engineering grad, I love it when math/physics is used to prove/disprove a statement of fact.

    Provided your math is correct, I'd love to see Koolance and their fanboys weasel out of this one. Spin as they may on the testing conditions & the application of those results towards PC watercooling, falsifying data is as unethical as it gets.
    Last edited by ranker; 06-17-2007 at 06:49 PM.
    MM Extended U2-UFO CYO (Duality front, Standard back, Horizontal Mobo brace) Anodized Black || eVGA X58 || Intel i7 920 || 6 GB Corsair Dominator PC3-12800|| eVGA 295GTX || Asus Xonar Essence STX || VisionTek 650 TV Tuner || 1 300GB WD Velociraptor || 1TB WD's Black Ed. || LG 22X DVD-Writer || Lite-On 20x DVD-Writer || Corsair CMPSU-1000HX PSU

    CPU Loop: DDC-2 w/ XSPC Reservoir Top -> Swiftech GTZ -> Thermochill PA120.3 (Push: 3 Scythe S-Flex G)

    GPU Loop: DDC-2 w/ XSPC Reservoir Top -> (Koolance VID-NX295 FC block) ->Thermochill PA120.3 (Push: 3 Scythe S-Flex G)

    Chipset Loop: DDC-2 w/ XSPC Reservoir Top -> Alphacool Silentstar Dual HD waterblock enclosure -> Bitspower Black Freezer eVGA x58 MOSFET-> Bitspower Black Freezer eVGA x58 NB -> Thermochill PA120.2 (Pull: 2 Scythe S-Flex G)

    2 x Dell 2408FPW LCD || Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 || Logitech G9 Mouse || Logitech G15 LCD Keyboard || Logitech Quickcam Ultravision || Sennheiser Headphones

  3. #178
    Xtreme Legend
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,025
    Quote Originally Posted by hwlabs View Post
    Cathar, are you are basing the reported values indicated on the KATECH documentation?

    Looking at their radiator, it appears that the tubes would themselves be obstructing airflow to a certain degree.

    It's all irrelevant.

    Check this post if you haven't seen it already.

    Either they're completely lying, or the test is completely invalid. They can choose which, and then decide how they might best like to withdraw their false claims.

  4. #179
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    46
    I reckon this deserves to be on this page. Bumped up the page count with my reply above.

    Let me digest this for a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cathar View Post
    OK. Got them now. They're lying, unless they've managed to change the laws of physics.

    Their results are impossible.

    Air @ 25C has a density of 1.169kg/m
    Air has a specific heat capacity of 1012J/kgC

    Air therefore has a thermal capacity of 1.169 x 1012 = 1183 J/mC

    Air-flow through their radiator is 5m/s, with an orifice area of 0.13m x 0.24m

    That's 5 x 0.13 x 0.24 = 0.156m/s

    Therefore, the thermal resistance of the air-flow is:

    0.156 m/s x 1183 J/mC = 184.55 J/sC

    A Watt is a Joule/sec

    Therefore the thermal resistance of the air is 185.55 W/C, or inverting, a C/W of 0.0054186

    i.e. for each watt of heat energy dissipated into the air, the air will warm up by 0.0054186C

    Koolance claim a heat dissipation of 9.62kW, or 9620W

    9620 x 0.0054186 = 52.13C

    i.e. to dissipate that amount of heat, the air MUST have risen by 52.13C above the inlet air temperature.

    So the exhaust air MUST be 24.46 + 52.13 = 76.39C

    This is basic thermal physics here.

    Here's the crunch part. Their results claim that the water discharge temperature is 56.20C

    i.e. In a total breakdown of the laws of thermodynamics, the water discharge temperature has somehow managed to exit the radiator at 20C less than the air discharge temperature.

    THAT is impossible.

  5. #180
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    93
    Quote Originally Posted by Cathar View Post
    It's all irrelevant.

    Check this post if you haven't seen it already.

    Either they're completely lying, or the test is completely invalid. They can choose which, and then decide how they might best like to withdraw their false claims.

    So, the question is in what regards. Is it a complete lie or just an exaggeration? Guess it doesn't really matter .

    Using the formula you used. If you bump the air flow up to 10m/sec the exhaust air would have to be 50.5. So, is it possible they posted results from a higher air flow rate? ( that is if I did my math properly.)

    Dateranoth
    EVGA X58 mobo
    6gb RAM 1600mhz cas9
    Core i7 w/ D-Tek FuZion @3.9Ghz (43C idle) (65C load) (27C ambient)
    EVGA 680GTX SC w/ MCW-60 and stock Heat Spreader (With some Modification) (32C idle) (53C load) (27C ambient)


    Water Cooling Loop:
    1/2" Tygon Tubing

    Laing DDC w/ Petra'sTech DDCT-01s Top >Swiftech MCR-320 w/ 120mm Yate Loon D12SH-12 x3>D-TEK FuZion>MCW-60>Swiftech MCRES-MICRO


    My Worklog

    Shop Petras

  6. #181
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    46
    Does anyone see the AirOut tempt or at least the dT of AirIn to AirOut on the KATECH report?

  7. #182
    Xtreme Legend
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,025
    Quote Originally Posted by Dateranoth View Post
    Using the formula you used. If you bump the air flow up to 10m/sec the exhaust air would have to be 50.5. So, is it possible they posted results from a higher air flow rate? ( that is if I did my math properly.)
    That would be consistent with the results. Yes.

    It's not our place to speculate what is really going on, suffice to say that the results as presented are not possible.

  8. #183
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    93
    Quote Originally Posted by Cathar View Post
    That would be consistent with the results. Yes.

    It's not our place to speculate what is really going on, suffice to say that the results as presented are not possible.
    Agreed Its a shame that it comes to these tactics though.

    Dateranoth
    EVGA X58 mobo
    6gb RAM 1600mhz cas9
    Core i7 w/ D-Tek FuZion @3.9Ghz (43C idle) (65C load) (27C ambient)
    EVGA 680GTX SC w/ MCW-60 and stock Heat Spreader (With some Modification) (32C idle) (53C load) (27C ambient)


    Water Cooling Loop:
    1/2" Tygon Tubing

    Laing DDC w/ Petra'sTech DDCT-01s Top >Swiftech MCR-320 w/ 120mm Yate Loon D12SH-12 x3>D-TEK FuZion>MCW-60>Swiftech MCRES-MICRO


    My Worklog

    Shop Petras

  9. #184
    Xtreme Legend
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,025

    Further Proof

    Looking through their results in the PDF

    @ 3m/s air-flow, & 5LPM flow rate

    Water-in = 84.86C
    Water-out = 58.55C
    Air-in = 24.59C
    Dissipation = 8860kW

    Munch the maths, and the exhaust air-temperature mus be 105.56C
    i.e. the air would have magically heated up to >20C above the water-inlet temperature.

    @ 5m/s air-flow, & 10LPM flow rate

    Water-in = 84.14C
    Water-out = 63.89C
    Air-in = 24.28C
    Dissipation = 13760kW

    Exhaust air-temp must be: 99.73C. i.e. Exhaust air, by all existing physics on the known thermal properties of air, is now magically 15C above the water inlet temperature.

  10. #185
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    98
    Cathar to the rescue, as always. Awesome stuff.

    All things aside, I was thinking of another variable that might need to be considered in terms of why the results are impossible: mistranslation. Surely if the test was done in Korea, then test results were published in Korean and then translated. Maybe there was a mix up in the translation.
    Case & PSU:
    Lian-Li PC-G70 Black w/ Full Window :: Modified for Wire Routing
    PC Power & Cooling 510-SLI PSU :: 5x120mm Yate Loon 12SMs
    System Core:
    Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 @ 3.4 GHz (1.45v - Stable) :: Watercooled
    Abit AW9D-MAX @ 378 MHz :: 2x1GB G.SKILL PC2-6400 (2.1v 1:1 4-4-4-10)
    Storage & OS:
    WD 4x250GB Caviar SE16 (RAID 5) :: WD 2x250GB Caviar SE16 (Single Drives)
    Windows XP Pro w/ Service Pack 2 :: Lite-On DVD/CD-RW & Lite-On DVD+RW/-RW
    Multimedia:
    eVGA 7900GTO 512MB @ 700/1530 MHz :: LG L246WP 24" LCD Flat Panel
    bluegears b-Enspirer HD 7.1 :: Creative Labs MegaWorks THX 2.1 550 Speakers
    Watercooling:
    D-Tek Fuzion CPU Waterblock :: Swiftech MCW60 GPU Waterblock
    Thermochill PA120.3 Radiator :: Swiftech MCP655 Pump :: EK-250 Reservoir

  11. #186
    Xtreme Legend
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,025
    Quote Originally Posted by DepTi View Post
    All things aside, I was thinking of another variable that might need to be considered in terms of why the results are impossible: mistranslation. Surely if the test was done in Korea, then test results were published in Korean and then translated. Maybe there was a mix up in the translation.
    I don't believe that. That PDF is a scanned document with stated units of measurement on it, which are international engineering standards regardless of what language the operators are, with original signatures. Koolance, in scanning the original document, are no doubt trying to demonstrate that the results are exactly as received in the report from KATECH.

    Edit: I personally think it's far more likely that they're going to try to claim operator error by some junior employee as a result of the fallout on this.

  12. #187
    Xtreme Cruncher
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Palo Alto, CA
    Posts
    4,147
    Ooooh I didn't notice that (eh I didn't even look through the PDF lol, I just saw that the water was 84C or something and the 9kw and 5kw figures, which brings us to a 50something C water discharge temp)
    Lenovo Thinkpad X220 - Core i5 2410m, 4gb
    waiting on 28nm video cards...

  13. #188
    XIP - can sit on his hair
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
    Posts
    3,388
    But according to your numbers, are the Koolance figures accurate or not? Cathar alluded to a lack of accuracy.

    We certainly see discrepancies from our end.
    Hi Willy - (am assuming that's you?) - Monday morning arrives and the blurry goggles of Mr J.Daniels have now worn off... (cor what a weekend... my wallet's lost a HELL of a lot of weight... TT Highlights, then British Superbikes, then F1 forcing me to spend the entire weekend on the sofa with a bottle or three, a glass, and all phones unplugged - the heartburn may take a while to subside - should start drinkin' it with milk!)

    Yes, discrepancies in abundance without clear definitions of the "how". Have amended my original statement once more... however, were any of OUR figures (ie: Yours and ThermoChills) produced by an identical testrig to Koolance's - or indeed, anything remotely similar? I'm willing to accept that a testrig of such a relatively huge scale will produce unseen data that will conflict with that gained from the methods we employ, so looking ONLY at their data, I have no hard reason to question it's accuracy due to it's irrelevance, and it's internal accuracy is only relevant under those conditions on that specific testrig (if you get what I'm aiming at... the eyes aren't blurry, but the head still may be).

    We've always said data produced on different rigs cannot be compared directly for such reasons, altho previously the differences between two rigs have never been exemplified in such a vast manner...

    Could really do with BillA making a brief reappearance to add in his thoughts on the matter, as he is our "tester of choice" and would be able to comment on the differences in hardware and methodology that may account for such differences... altho even he may struggle to explain why laws of physics are being mysteriously warped as they pass thru the Katech continuum.
    Last edited by Marci; 06-18-2007 at 02:38 AM.

  14. #189
    XIP - can sit on his hair
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
    Posts
    3,388
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
    Marci, if you're reading this, is there any chance you can provide the thermal conductivity of the brass you guys use?
    Brass that we use is 151W/m-C (87.23k). That's 85%Cu, 15%Zn - specific heat of 380J/kg-C
    Last edited by Marci; 06-18-2007 at 03:09 AM.

  15. #190
    XIP - can sit on his hair
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
    Posts
    3,388
    Quote Originally Posted by V2-V3
    We also need not to forget such things as air density, humidity, atmospheric composition, as these things are mostly neglected in most reviews/tests and can have an impact on test results.
    barometric pressure (mA) and relative humidity are both measured and accounted for in testing done by BillA... just not noted on the published graphs as the relevance of such to the enduser is minimal.

  16. #191
    XIP - can sit on his hair
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
    Posts
    3,388

  17. #192
    Xtreme Legend
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,025
    Quote Originally Posted by Cathar View Post
    i.e. In a total breakdown of the laws of thermodynamics, the water discharge temperature has somehow managed to exit the radiator at 20C less than the air discharge temperature.
    Okay, I'm going to have to withdraw this statement, as it's false. I had heard it a long time ago, and always believed it. Someone wrote to me an asked me to prove it. I broke it down to first principles and established a logical progression sequence of water molecules travelling top-to-bottom on a 2D plane, and air-molecules travelling from side-to-side acrosss the 2D plane, and then constructed some software to simulate it.

    It turns out that it's quite possible for the average exhuast air-temperature to asymptote towards the water inlet temperature, while the water discharge temperature is significantly less than the average exhuast air-temperature. The disparate thermal capacities of the two mediums means that the water molecules that the air first strikes (i.e. at the entrance of a radiator) can transfer so much heat that the air warms up to pretty close to the water inlet temperature by the time it reaches the exit of the radiator, and so while the water molecules at the front air-entrance-side of the radiator are being cooled, those at the air-exhaust-side are barely being cooled at all 'cos the air has already heated up. In this way, it's possible for the air exhaust temp to approach the water inlet temp, while the water discharge temp may be less.

    It is (of course) impossible for the air-temperature to ever be more than the water-inlet temperature though. So the proof that they are defying the laws of physics still holds true based upon the analysis in this post.

    i.e. What they're claiming is still impossible for various of their data points, just that the singular data point that I first pointed out is theoretically possible.

    My apologies for the confusion.
    Last edited by Cathar; 06-18-2007 at 01:47 PM.

  18. #193
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Houston TX USA
    Posts
    96
    I was leaning towards air air leak myself, until some posted that the numbers corrolate with 10m/s.

    It's easy to mess up the mount of the core, at the other end of the blower, in a test rig like that. The pictures don't inspire any confidence, for me, on that point.

  19. #194
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Leics, England
    Posts
    175
    i think they had too much sangrea and just made it all up to make koolance look like lemons *nods*
    after the PSU i'm planning on watercooling the ball bearings in the fans...

  20. #195
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    France
    Posts
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by Cathar View Post
    Okay, I'm going to have to withdraw this statement, as it's false. I had heard it a long time ago, and always believed it. Someone wrote to me an asked me to prove it.
    Isn't that guy a certain called [FLOW] ? Ten hours ago, he showed me your replies here in commentaries on CM and I explained him exactly what you are talking about because I saw that lack in your explanations. I checked directly their values too into Excel to see if any aberration could be possible because of their results. Calculations are good but a bit too simplistic face to reality, it's only an average energetic equivalence from water to air, but reality is slighty different like on my quick drawing below (I let you imagine the more complex 3D repartition of the exhaust air temperature field for a 2-pass rad). But as you said rightly, the mean calculated T° is enough to make some preliminary assumptions, but for the Koolance rad, these values are effectively strange when we compare them to inlet water T°. The average exhaust air temperature value is already above the max temperature possible (other values for TC & Hwlabs are physically possible, I saw no problem IIRC). Max exhaust air T° can't never be above water T° at inlet, it will be anti thermodynamical, you'll create a blackhole lol
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by rosco; 06-18-2007 at 04:27 PM.

  21. #196
    Unoriginal Macho Energy
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    3,159
    Quote Originally Posted by rosco View Post
    Max exhaust air T can't never be above water T at inlet, it will be anti thermodynamical, you'll create a blackhole lol
    OMG koolance can create black holes! wewt!

    *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*
    GTZ --> MCW-NBMAX --> EK FC --> PA 120.3 --> PA 160.1 --> 2x DDC Ultras in Series --> Custom Clear Res
    "Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."
    *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*

    Quote Originally Posted by ranker View Post
    Did you just get hit in the head with a heavy object? Because obviously you're failing at reading comprehension.

  22. #197
    Xtreme Legend
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,025
    Don't know a FLOW guy. People use different names all over the place online. Might have been?

    Yes, Rosco, the diagram that you just drew is pretty much exactly what I just modelled in software. As air-flow is increased, it's far less likely for the air to get close to the water temperature. It all depends on the relative thermal capacities of the air-flow and liquid-flow, and the shape of the 2D array. It's a very complex arrangement.

    The simplified maths are enough, however, to show that the average of the air-discharge temperature is above the water inlet temperature, and that cannot ever be possible.

    Agreed. I also computed for HWLabs and Thermochill, and all those results are possible. Also computed for the water temp deltas matched to the flow rate and claimed heat dissipation, and found that for all radiators that the results are in alignment.

    It's just once we consider the air-flow aspects is where we find discrepancies.

    It is possible, I guess, that the air-speed meter is wrong, and the air-flow is even much higher than what we've calculated. ie. in the order of 600cfm or so, instead of 330cfm, when they're talking about 5m/s air velocities. That 5m/s might be totally wrong, or may be being measured at a different point within a larger chamber?

    The problem with that though is that the air-pressure drops across the radiators then make absolutely no sense. It is, as if, the air-flow was a lot ligher (>600cfm) and there were air-flow leaks meaning that a lot of air-flow was bypassing the Thermochill & HWLabs radiators. Then it'd make sense. The only problem with that though is that at 600cfm, the ventilation resistance for the Koolance radiator doesn't make any sense at all.

    Then again, that might be explained by a faulty air-pressure sensor, and that, coupled with a faulty air-speed calculation, coupled with faulty/leaky mounts of the radiators, would then explain how the results were arrived at. In which case, there's so many systemic errors that the results are totally invalid anyway.

    No matter how you draw the bow, the results are rubbish.

  23. #198
    Xtreme Cruncher
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    venezuela caracas
    Posts
    7,392
    guys why dont we ask petra or billa to make tests about this issue... i liked the way petra did test for all the pumps and alex is a honest guy and im sure their test will be valid and bias free

    i see the koolance response as a joke and a stunt to make them look like the best radiators out there.
    Incoming new computer after 5 long years

    YOU want to FIGHT CANCER OR AIDS join us at WCG and help to have a better FUTURE

  24. #199
    Xtreme Mentor
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,588
    Quote Originally Posted by BigBen2k View Post
    It's a heatercore: the internal radiator of a car, designed to keep the cabin warm, in winter.
    Yes but which one, is the question?

    It's just that such a miracle device should instantly be the answer to our energy needs.
    It's not a cooler, it's the worlds best heater.
    Last edited by Jedda; 06-18-2007 at 06:33 PM.

  25. #200
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Miami Beach
    Posts
    456
    Quote Originally Posted by nikhsub1 View Post
    OMG koolance can create black holes! wewt!
    lately you have been the comical relief of everywhere.

    just sayin'

Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 567891011 LastLast

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •