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Thread: Morphing Air Conditioner into Autocascade System

  1. #801
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    KANG-CHINA........Mytek controls auto-cascade thread is in the stickies for the wealth of information it provides. It's already a very long thread and Mytek provided as much information as he determined appropiate.

    Many of the questions you are asking are REDUNDANT. You may want to read the thread severial times but also read all posts Mytek made and all the threads Mytek contributed too. That should be a years worth of reading.

    I can't speak for Mytek but doubt he has the time to answer the same questions over again.

    Also Asking Redundant questions in a already very long "sticky thread" makes it more difficult for other readers to find the important information they seek.

    So Kang-China why don't you start your own thread on what ever topic you want to call it ("my auto-cade") and ask the questions there.

    Walt
    Last edited by wdrzal; 03-10-2011 at 01:01 PM.
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

  2. #802
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    Ditto
    Michael St. Pierre

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  3. #803
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    Note(1): It would seem that the "Stepper" design that I see being used for CPU cooling, has proportionately more surface being cooled on the circumference then on the CPU side. This seems like a waste of material and extra machining. Where as a low profile design would seem to be more efficient.

    Note(2): Has anyone measured the surface temperature versus the refrigerant temperature of any of the currently used evaporator designs while under full load? If not, then how can anyone know if a given design is any better (or worse) than another?
    Well, to 1, I can see what you mean, but I think we've always gone with the assumption that heat transfer will as always follow to the cold dead zone, so making the entire evaporator cold would be sufficient.

    As for two, I've tried to use matching setups with different evaporators. Ultimately other then expansive, I found the worst evaporator to be a simple cap in cap design, moving up a gradient to a Chilly1 spiral (which we've known to see fail at larger loads), then to a stepper and finally to an Eleven style (like a pin grid or spiral on the CPU side). So it would follow as you said, but the machining time I think has always been the killer.


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  4. #804
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    Hmm... Nol I wonder if we should also move this evaporator talk to another area, although I do find it fascinating, but its relevancy to this thread may be somewhat questionable. I think there was an ongoing thread about evaporator designs, perhaps we can find it and move this discussion there.

    What do you think? Can we copy and paste this stuff over there?
    Michael St. Pierre

    • Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
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    • Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
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    Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.

  5. #805
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    Not a bad idea.


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  6. #806
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    about oil

    hi,mytek

    please tell in your AC-2,and AC-3,about the compressor oil

    POE or AB ,or another,,

    thank your


  7. #807
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    I would suspect that iso-pentane is the best substitute for R-123 both have a 1-atm. boiling point of 27C. The use of n-butane throws the refrigerant balance off.

  8. #808
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    Compressor hp question

    Quote Originally Posted by mytekcontrols View Post
    Yes it should be. In fact Polycold has a system called a PGC-150 that utilizes this many stages, and the same refrigerants (although it does have a subcooler and small amounts of R-14 and Argon as well). It does -120C at just over 300 watts, and utilizes a 1 1/2 HP reciprocating compressor.

    But if you are just starting out with autocascade design, it is better to keep it simple, and build up from what you learn.

    Edit: the PGC-150 also uses Ethane as part of its blend.
    I reviewed the link for the PGC-150 and it states rated amps 12.5 at 230VAC (2875W). Even with the air-cooled condenser fan, this seem way over 1.5-hp (1.5*750/0.85 = 1324W, the 0.85 is the electric motor efficiency). So it appears to me closer to a 3-hp used by this reciprocating compressor. What am I missing?

    Kevin

  9. #809
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Hotton View Post
    I reviewed the link for the PGC-150 and it states rated amps 12.5 at 230VAC (2875W). Even with the air-cooled condenser fan, this seem way over 1.5-hp (1.5*750/0.85 = 1324W, the 0.85 is the electric motor efficiency). So it appears to me closer to a 3-hp used by this reciprocating compressor. What am I missing?

    Kevin
    A good quality hermetic compressor can be pushed to 200%++ of their rating. They might only last 3 to 5 years (instead of 20+)before the insulation on the windings breaks down. Look @ NEMA motor insulation classes.

    Walt
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

  10. #810
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdrzal View Post
    A good quality hermetic compressor can be pushed to 200%++ of their rating. They might only last 3 to 5 years (instead of 20+)before the insulation on the windings breaks down. Look @ NEMA motor insulation classes.

    Walt
    Walt is correct. When this system was developed, the compressor was pushed very hard in order to meet the desired specification of -90 to -95C for a secondary gas outlet temperature @ 12 CFM flow rate (this is the equivalent to 850 watts of total heat load). However in an autocascade such as this one, the better suction cooling provided by the choice of refrigerants in use helps to compensate for this greater current draw by providing better heat transfer as opposed to a single refrigerant system. The only down side was difficulty in starting under low voltage conditions.

    Edit: The PGC-150 was a gas chiller, meaning that it consisted of both a primary and secondary circuit, with the primary side being an autocascade refrigerated system, and the secondary being a gas loop cooled by the primary circuit. The secondary gas circuit could be a flow of nitrogen gas or supplied by a clean dry source of compressed air.
    Last edited by mytekcontrols; 04-04-2013 at 07:30 AM.
    Michael St. Pierre

    • Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
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    • Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
    • Also do contract service work on Polycold units

    Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.

  11. #811
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    Michael based on your description, I guess thermodynamically, the PGC-150 is not quite as impressive as it first might appear. Because it is cooling a gas from room-temperature down to -95C and uses the paralllel cooling path with the autocascade return refrigerant flow, it provides very little of its total cooling duty at -95C. To cool nitrogen to -95C there is no phase change so it is all sensible heat with an effective heat-transfer temperature of probably only -50C. It would be much harder (probably impossible) to match the PGC-150's COP if you had all the cooling being done by an evaporator at -95C. If all the cooling was done at -95C, it COP would likely be cut in half.

    Kevin

  12. #812
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    I'll respond to this here, but this is getting very off topic from the original theme of this thread, which is suppose to be about converting window AC or it's components into a working autocascade refrigeration system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Hotton View Post
    Michael based on your description, I guess thermodynamically, the PGC-150 is not quite as impressive as it first might appear. Because it is cooling a gas from room-temperature down to -95C and uses the paralllel cooling path with the autocascade return refrigerant flow, it provides very little of its total cooling duty at -95C.
    The process of cooling the secondary gas stream from a +25C ambient down to a -95C outlet (an effective change in temperature of 120 degrees) is a gradual process due to the parallel path the secondary gas cooling circuit takes with the autocascade's primary mixed refrigerant stream. To say it provides very little of it's cooling duty at -95C is probably accurate to some degree, since the responsibility for cooling is not simply isolated to one HX. And the bulk of the cooling is most certainly happening in the first two HX's, which is very typical for a 2 phase separated AutoC (Auxiliary Condenser - Phase Sep#1 - Cascade #1 - Phase Sep#2 - Cascade #2 - Sub-Cooler - Evap) whether it be a gas chiller or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Hotton View Post
    It would be much harder (probably impossible) to match the PGC-150's COP if you had all the cooling being done by an evaporator at -95C. If all the cooling was done at -95C, it COP would likely be cut in half.
    Yes that is the point of spreading the cooling of the secondary gas stream across the entire AutoC's HX stack. That being to increase efficiency. This same method would work equally as well for a liquid chiller.
    Michael St. Pierre

    • Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
    • Now Self-Employed
    • Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
    • Also do contract service work on Polycold units

    Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.

  13. #813
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    Sorry to bother, but Michael there are possibilities to re- upload the pics? or are them somewhere in this thread?

    About the Air conditiones, what is the exact model? or is it just kile a regular window one?

    Thnaks in advance

  14. #814
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsarulz View Post
    Sorry to bother, but Michael there are possibilities to re- upload the pics? or are them somewhere in this thread?

    About the Air conditiones, what is the exact model? or is it just kile a regular window one?

    Thnaks in advance
    Even if I still had all the photos, it would be a monumental task to restore what was lost. However I do recall something being said about the originally uploaded images still being on a backup somewhere, and that these would get restored at sometime in the future. But then again I might have dreamed that. If the webmaster of these forums has anything to say about this, please feel free to comment.

    The window AC unit was an LG model having a 6500 btu rotary compressor (R22 model). If you wanted to duplicate what I did, you would probably want to use an 8000 btu R410a unit. This is somewhat based on what Kevin Hotton discovered that the displacements had been reduced for a given btu rating on the R410a units.

    I wish I could help you more, but a lot of this thread was written over 6 years ago, I had a complete hard drive meltdown a few years later and just didn't bother to keep a backup of the data or photos on this particular project.
    Michael St. Pierre

    • Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
    • Now Self-Employed
    • Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
    • Also do contract service work on Polycold units

    Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.

  15. #815
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    I'll check my archives. I'm fairly sure I have just about everything you've ever posted here Mytek. Give me a day or two.


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  16. #816
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337 View Post
    I'll check my archives. I'm fairly sure I have just about everything you've ever posted here Mytek. Give me a day or two.
    Adam, when you say you have everything I ever posted, what does that mean exactly?

    Because if it is just the photos by themselves, like I said earlier that would still be quite a task to upload them to an image server, and then get them all posted back into the correct spots (there are a lot of pages to this thread, and there were a lot of pictures). And even the nice guy that I am, I don't think I'm up to doing that at this point, because that's a lot of work, and a lot of time that I don't really have at the moment (going to have to wait until I retire).

    So this brings me back to my original thoughts...

    • What ever happened to the pictures that were originally posted?
    • Can these be restored from a back-up taken of this forum when they still existed?
    • Or did something get damaged beyond repair with the original photo links?
    Michael St. Pierre

    • Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
    • Now Self-Employed
    • Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
    • Also do contract service work on Polycold units

    Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.

  17. #817
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    Adam, when you say you have everything I ever posted, what does that mean exactly?
    A few years back I undertook a project to save as much of the photo's from the Vapor Phase Section stuff as I could.
    I mean I went back to 2004~ on here and went through every thread.
    It was originally a back up attempt after we lost some old photo's from other forums and all the reference material.
    So at some point I certainly saved all your photos, but not all of your text just yet. (That's a future project with individuals permission and such).

    If you don't mind though, here are the photo's I have from this project thread.

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...7334577&type=1


    If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.

  18. #818
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337;5224928If you don't mind though, here are the photo's I have from this project thread.

    [url
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.664917593549956.1073741826.160404767334577& type=1[/url]
    Thanks, and I think that'll be a great help to anyone trying to reference this thread.

    So do you know what exactly happened? Was it due to bandpass or storage considerations that caused the pictures to go away?
    Michael St. Pierre

    • Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
    • Now Self-Employed
    • Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
    • Also do contract service work on Polycold units

    Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.

  19. #819
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    Not a clue. My guess is exceeding a bandwidth cap, or a loss on storage side. It's a common problem, especially when so many people used quick storage sites like imageshack for so long.
    These days I commonly just use Dropbox but that requires I will store the image there forever...


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  20. #820
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337 View Post
    A few years back I undertook a project to save as much of the photo's from the Vapor Phase Section stuff as I could.
    I mean I went back to 2004~ on here and went through every thread.
    It was originally a back up attempt after we lost some old photo's from other forums and all the reference material.
    So at some point I certainly saved all your photos, but not all of your text just yet. (That's a future project with individuals permission and such).

    If you don't mind though, here are the photo's I have from this project thread.

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...7334577&type=1
    Hey I see some of my old stuff in there, units I had that is.
    Couple seem to be missing tho., the Jinu 2 Stage Cascade pic's. and I believe Jinu's Auto Cascade.

    Man I sure like those Auto Cascades, very nice work

  21. #821
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    Couple seem to be missing tho., the Jinu 2 Stage Cascade pic's. and I believe Jinu's Auto Cascade.
    I've got a lot to upload


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  22. #822
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    great

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    any autocascade cooling Q&A

    If you have a cooling question or concern , feel free to contact me pls.

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    Where you located uuvv88?
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