Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Why some leaks don't leak.

  1. #1
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,848

    Why some leaks don't leak.

    This is a paper I found and had a copy of,can't tell you the author but this was written around 30+ years ago.

    System Residues hide leaks. Sludge and residues coat the interior of system components and temporarily seal corrosion pits, fissures, seams, seals, o’rings, and other small leak points. Some of those residues include refrigeration oils, acids, desiccant, pulverized metal, Teflon piston ring material, brazing fluxes, dye particles, etc.
    Overcoming Residue Surface Tension: Leaks are harder to find because leak testing is performed with the system turned off. Lost are the benefits of an operating system: a) constant washing of interior surfaces of components; b) higher operating pressures that encourage leaks. With a system at rest, the undisturbed residues mentioned above are able to coat the insides of the evaporator, condenser, compressor, and other components. When Residue Surface Tension is greater than the interior pressures’ ability to displace it, there is no leak occurrence, thus no leak detection.

    Residue Displacement: If surface tension is the culprit, then how do we overcome it? Answer: By adding 4-ounces of chlorine-based refrigerant R-22 to the system. R-22 disturbs the surface tension. We follow that by pressurizing the system with 175-200 psi of nitrogen. Both are cheap.

    At the higher system pressure, the R-22 overcomes the residue surface tension and forces the leak path to reopen. Now, enough R-22 gas is available so that leaks are detected easily. The R-22 is the residue-displacing agent.

    R-22 summary. R-22: (a) creates a leak path because of its oil solubility and residue displacement potential; (b) is more readily detectible by electronic leak detectors than HFCs; (c) is non visual-dependent, unlike dyes, thus can be used effectively to locate leaks in enclosed areas; (d) will not cross-contaminate nor cause any harmful consequences to CFC, HFC, nor blend refrigerant systems (i.e., after leak testing an HFC (R-134a) system using R-22, there is typically zero percent cross-contamination if evacuated afterwards).

    Nitrogen summary. Nitrogen has the following qualities: (a) inert, very dry and non-flammable; (b) does not go into solution with refrigeration oil to create non condensable pressure problems (i.e., after leak testing an HFC (R-134a) system using R-22 and nitrogen, there is typically zero percent non condensables (nitrogen or air), if evacuated afterwards).

    Diluted Liquid Soap. Speed is important to technicians when performing a leak test. Large and medium size leaks can be quickly located in exposed areas such as under hood components by applying diluted liquid dishwashing soap directly to suspected leak points.

    Multiple Leaks. If a large leak is discovered repair it and perform a follow-up leak test. Leak tests should be performed following each repair until all leak points are found and fixed.

    Pinpoint versus Area Testing Pinpoint Accuracy. Technicians need to know exactly where leaks exist. Consequently, leak testing needs to be pinpoint accurate, regardless whether by visual or non-visual means. With dyes, the detection is strictly visual and general area, not pinpoint. Dyes do not provide the rapid and finite definition of the Combination Method [non-visual: electronic leak detector detecting the nitrogen-pressured R-22, and, visual: diluted soap solution bubbling].

    Electronic Leak Detectors. Heated diode leak detectors are currently the best non-visual, dependent leak detection instrument for sensing a gaseous leak. They have the necessary characteristics of sensitivity, repeatability and recoverability (after a leak), which are so important.



    Summary
    There is currently no equally effective (in all situations) substitute for the combination leak test method described above. It has neither the problems nor shortcomings of dye. I have heard the argument that nitrogen is dangerous. Well, the stationary industry has been using it for at least 60 years, and my company has been using it since 1973. Some of the major stationary manufacturers think that is important enough to dedicate a section of their training manuals exclusively to its use for leak testing their a/c systems. It is not unsafe, unless one uses it improperly. Mobile a/c technicians are simply untrained in its use. What a shame, it is so simple and effective and easier, safer, and cheaper, etc.

    Once upon a time, folks were afraid to fly in an airplane that didn’t have a propeller—it was thought to be too dangerous. I encourage any a/c technician to get a good quality nitrogen regulator and bottle of nitrogen from a welding supply store. Set the regulator to 200 psi. It is safe to use with all conventional a/c systems, and will not damage any system components.

    Make sure that the nitrogen bottle is secured to a wall or in a dolly, and that everyone in the service department is taught not to fool with the regulator setting. Or, install an Allen head set screw and lock nut with the regulator so that it can’t be adjusted once it is pre-set. We have safely tested a/c system components at 200-psi nitrogen pressures on over 40,000 tests. Remember, 200 psi is only about 50 psi higher than the compressed air lines used by you and every other technician nation wide. I encourage all technicians who aspire to become more professional in a/c service to invest in a good quality nitrogen regulator and bottle. Then take the time to practice the method. You will be doing a service to yourself and your customers. $$$


    I think he was a pilot
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

  2. #2
    -150c Club Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Northeast, USA
    Posts
    10,090
    Do you have any information regarding the comparison of nitrogen and co2 in this sorta testing procedure?


    If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.

  3. #3
    Admin
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    5,551
    IMO - It's not a leak until it leaks.
    UNDER THE ICE .com
    Phase Change Cooling

    is the remedy

  4. #4
    -100c Club Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    591
    my only problem with leaks is with flares at low temp

    flares at low temp develop leaks due to the retraction/contracion of the cycles, so you need to keep readjusting your flare

  5. #5
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,848
    I like double flares,but how and what to look for in a proper flare in more than most think
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

  6. #6
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,848
    Notice how scary high pressure nitrogen was to some years ago,they seen boilers explode under 100 psi and kill people now 3000 psi bottles of gas.
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

  7. #7
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,848
    Quote Originally Posted by runmc View Post
    IMO - It's not a leak until it leaks.
    thats the trouble its a sneaky leak.
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

  8. #8
    -150c Club Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Northeast, USA
    Posts
    10,090
    Hahhahaha the couch smiley was perfect.
    I understand what you mean though about hidden leaks, or leaks that dont appear till the system runs. Or the more annoying ones, that a leak on the low side with a low side running just about the same pressure as the outside world, that didnt appear earlier.


    If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kentwood, MI
    Posts
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by wdrzal View Post
    Notice how scary high pressure nitrogen was to some years ago,they seen boilers explode under 100 psi and kill people now 3000 psi bottles of gas.
    At my old job, they had huge hydraulic accumulators with connecting nitrogen tanks the size of torpedos. Their pressure was about 4000 PSI empty and highs of over 4600 PSI. The interesting part was the fact that they had to run heavy equipment right next to the accumulators to replace the hydraulic motors. I'd hate to see one of those pipes get knocked off.

  10. #10
    Diablo 3! Who's Excited?
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boulder, Colorado
    Posts
    9,412
    4500 psi cylinders are very common compressed air cylinders, I myself use a 45 cubic inch 4500psi aluminum carbon-fiber wrapped cylinder for my paintball marker. Guess the difference between a boiler and a modern cylinder is the amount of material, I suspect a boiler exploding would be something like storm of shrapnel due to the amount of steel used in their construction.

  11. #11
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,848
    Quote Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler View Post
    4500 psi cylinders are very common compressed air cylinders, I myself use a 45 cubic inch 4500psi aluminum carbon-fiber wrapped cylinder for my paintball marker. Guess the difference between a boiler and a modern cylinder is the amount of material, I suspect a boiler exploding would be something like storm of shrapnel due to the amount of steel used in their construction.
    I talking boilers at the beginning of the steam age when cast iron casting(metallurgy was not perfected) or steel boiler lacked safety devices or home made out of 2 thin metal. 4 years ago I watched a tire warehouse burn to the ground as it had a old very large coal boiler to heat a front office and a dance studio upstairs improperly installed.

    neighbors head a load explosion @ 3 am, the coal boiler shattered throwing hot coals in all directions. it blew right through the 1-1/4 drywall walls(code) meant to contain a small fire. the owner filled boiler with coal and left bottom door completely open to catch as is was -10F.Then went to bar and forgot to return to close it,it over heated and pressure rose. the guy hired some DIY carpenters to install the used boiler out of a church,probably 70 to 100 years old on steam(they rot above the water line. well wrong pressure relief valve(supposed to have one set to 30 psi) 200 psi air compressor valve was installed and no expansion tank. the only reason it lasted 2 years was many of the radiators where shut off and never bleed the air out and they worked as expansion tanks to they eventually all got water logged (Term for non bladder type expansion tanks)filling with water. 1.3 million was lost in fire luckily no one was killed. Insurance refused to pay cause the building prior had boiler removed and this new one was installed with no hydronic testing pressure testing and then the test needs re-run in presence of a pressure vessel inspector from the state who was never called & no blue prints where ever drawn,thus a pressure vessel certificate was never issued...

    .Save a few bucks and loose a 2 generations of work as building and all tires where paid for........

    The worst part was this was my best Friend, I refused to install that boiler Even that he was best freind and I did all other work,except carpentry.by seeing the apparent deteriation and doubt even if it passed the 60 psi hydronic test it would not last long, He did not heed my warnings as he promised a date to open the dance studio,so he took a chance on diy guys . I suggested to find a boiler NOT on steam heat. The Carpenter's installed it who remolded the upstairs dance studio,AFAIK this was first and last heating system they installed. some local resident wanted jail time for risking a catastrophe and because of damage to their homes from heat.furneal home across street had to be closed for a month think 50,000 tires plus burning,1 block from center of town !!!The owner had no idea of what exactly was in there as far as inventory.every size tire from car to semi and coal buckets 25 ton.

    I remember watching the tears run down his cheeks as his warehouse burt. I finnally convinced him that he can't do anything and let me take him to hospital to get checked for shock which appeared he was going into.

    You Can be held liable for poor work, especially if its comes to the point of negligence. The owner of carpenty crew who took the job got 60 days in jail . Plus some huge fines.

    Finally since carpenter represented he could do the job, so after much lidagation the insurance payed 50% and the Carpenter was supposed to pay the other 50% , he had NO insurance Cash DIY kind of guys he will be making payments out of his social security retirement check

    This wasn't so much to do with cooling as how doing it wrong can affect your entire life and that of others,just think if someone died in that major FUBAR.
    Last edited by wdrzal; 05-13-2007 at 02:09 PM.
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

  12. #12
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Rennes (france)
    Posts
    443
    There are some cleaning gases we can find by delmo, it wash the inside of the systems (oil, acidity), according to delmo ( ) it works well and maybe it has the same capacity than R22 for cleaning. That would be interesting to know a bit more about it

  13. #13
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,848
    yes their are different flush agents whether converting oil types or the compressor was a burn out contaminating the system with acidic oil
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

  14. #14
    Xtreme Mentor
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Redvers, Sask, Canada.
    Posts
    2,974
    Best rule of thumb, any thing you make whether for your self or for some one ells, huge or tiny, should not only meet but exceed the code in quality and material, it is a point of Honor and pride to show just how good you can make some thing!

    When I build, I put my passion into it, to me it is a work of art and I want it to reflect that!

    I have seen similar things as Walt has described, & in some the guys didn't walk out, I nearly didn't from one guys half as*ed install. I was knocked dead out for over 2 hours from monoxide poisoning when young, by sheer chance I passed out by the door I opened a crack in the right way, other wise I wouldn't be typing this! He used a Natural gas water heater with propane!
    Last edited by Xeon th MG Pony; 05-11-2007 at 11:02 AM. Reason: cleaned up for easier reading.
    Bring back natural selection! No more warning lables!

    The one and Only MG Pony

  15. #15
    Xtreme Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    585
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony View Post
    Best rule of thumb, any thing you make whether for your self or for some one ells, huge or tiny, should not only meet but exceed the code in quality and material, it is a point of Honor and pride to show just how good you can make some thing!

    When I build, I put my passion into it, to me it is a work of art and I want it to reflect that!
    Very well said.

  16. #16
    Xtreme Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
    Posts
    910
    Wonderfull resource of knowledge.
    Should be sticked.
    Q9550 EO @ 4.1
    Asus P5Q Deluxe
    4 Gb DDR2 Gskill
    2xVelociraptors 300 gb Raid 0
    Sapphire Vapor 4870 1Gb
    PCP&C 750w silencer psu

  17. #17
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,060
    I have a leaky condenser unit outside of my house. a tech came out and charged it last year and now its low again. its showing low head pressure and the evap is frosting up on the bottom half.

    i want to find the leak, however i did notice when i went to install my gauge manifold that both access valve caps were under pressure. they were hard to remove and spit some gas when i unscrewed them. after installing them again they would repressurize in less than a minute. could this be the cause of the leak? im not sure if the caps are ment to hold any pressure that the valve core is leaking. they are the origional plastic type caps. and its an r-22 system. ill put a charge in it someday and use some soapy bubbles. but just for reassurance, do valve caps hold charges well? or should i expect that by changing the cores the problem may dissapear?
    Current System Build
    Designaton:" Rad Hat "
    __________________
    • Mother Board, RAM and CPU:
      Mobo: Asus Maximus Formula (SE) BIOS 1207 | CPU: Intel q9650 @ 3.80GHz Vcore 1.272v | RAM: Crucial Ballistix Tracer PC2 8500 4x1GB
    • Graphics Processor:
      GPU: BFG 8800GTX | BFG 8600GT (Quad Monitor Setup)
    • Hard Drives:
      RAID: 2x 74GB Raptors on RAID 0 for OS Drives
    • Case and Power Supply:
      Case: Antec Case | PS: OCZ ProXstreame 1000W
    • Water Cooling:
      Pump: Swiftech MCP655-B | Rad: Dual Swiftech MCR320's | Fans: 6x Yate Loon D12SH-12's (W/ Variable RPM Rheostat) @ 88CFM Max Each - 528CFM Total!!!
    • (Water Blocks and Fittings):
      CPU: D-Tek Fusion Block | GPU: Danger Den Full Coverage 8800 Block | Mobo: EK's Mosfet, NorthBridge and SouthBridge Blocks
      Res: Swiftech Micro | Tee's: 4x MartinM's High Flow Copper Tee's | Elbow's: None | Y's: None
    Flow Order: >> Rad's 1 & 2 in parallel > Res > Pump > CPU > GPU > SB > NB > Mosfet 1 > Mosfet 2 >>
    Temperatures: CPU: 57°C Max, Running Prime95 | GPU: 58.3°C Max, Running 3Dmark | NorthBridge: Untested!
    Last Updated 11/11/09

  18. #18
    Xtreme Mentor
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Redvers, Sask, Canada.
    Posts
    2,974
    you should replace the cores and check them again, the caps just keep moisture and dirt out of the valve.
    Bring back natural selection! No more warning lables!

    The one and Only MG Pony

  19. #19
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,848
    the caps will seal use metal caps with seals in top , but your PRIMARY seal is the valve core that should fix it, ................first see if they are loose

    NOT TIRE VALVE CORES
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

  20. #20
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Tripoli, Greece; Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    137
    if that's not the cause, get some UV dye

  21. #21
    Xtreme Mentor
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Redvers, Sask, Canada.
    Posts
    2,974
    Dye is a lame mans way out of doing honest work! HVAC is not a place for dyes, it is another contaminant in the system that needn't be there, by doing a proper search and test method you will find all leaks that the dye would not show up.

    ANY company who promotes the usage of dyes is one you shouldn't be using; IMO!
    Bring back natural selection! No more warning lables!

    The one and Only MG Pony

  22. #22
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,848
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony View Post
    Dye is a lame mans way out of doing honest work! HVAC is not a place for dyes, it is another contaminant in the system that needn't be there, by doing a proper search and test method you will find all leaks that the dye would not show up.

    ANY company who promotes the usage of dyes is one you shouldn't be using; IMO!
    While dye is usually a last tactic,many times it depends on what type of system and what area's you already elimanated. it has it's place, some leaks are so slow that only can can be found over a period of time using the correct dye, you can't station a serviceman in a persons home for a week or month.

    just like you can't find a leak in a automobile evaporator except with a electronic detector sensing the air being expelled. or having to remove it first. A lot of work if the leak is not there.

    Also making up ones belief, is a lame mans way of not studying facts.
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •