Enviro-Safe 22a?

[star882]

http://www.es-refrigerants.com/produ...nt/details.asp

Enviro-Safe™ 22a Refrigerant is made of only the Most Pure, Quality, Refined ingredients available today.

Because Enviro-Safe™ 22a Refrigerant is so efficient you will use 25% less! Please see equivalencies below.
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Enviro-Safe™ 22a Refrigerant is a non-ozone depleting product and is completely safe for the environment.

The products we market have been perfected over the years, and are now highly refined and computer blended to within 1/4 of 1% by a major American petrochemical supplier. This means our products are consistent each and every time our customers use them!

Enviro-Safe carries a guarantee that Enviro-Safe™ Refrigerants will not harm air conditioning, compressors or other related mechanical equipment when used in accordance with Enviro-Safe directions.

In most cases, Enviro-Safe™ 22a Refrigerant is capable of delivering energy savings and will result in a considerable reduction in operating costs!

There are many advantages to using Enviro-Safe™ 22a Refrigerant. It allows your system to operate with less head pressure and is extremely efficient! We have recorded energy savings of up to 40% over R22.
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Enviro-Safe™ 22a Refrigerant is a replacement for R22. This refrigerant is used mainly for home a/c units and is also a huge energy saver! Enviro-Safe™ 22a Refrigerant is available in the 8 ounce cans, 30lb, 50lb, and 1000lb cylinders.

Is that a scam or is it for real?
I'm repairing my A/C that lost much of its charge. I would like to know if it's better to use the substitute that does not require an EPA certification or just get the EPA certification and use R22.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

It is an HC blend, it will offer lower head pressures as for will it net you massive performance boosts is debatable.

You need much less HC then you would R 22.

[DetroitAC]

It's a hydrocarbon blend, R-22 is selling for about 60% of the price on that link, but if you only need a tiny bit, I can see the attractiveness of this stuff, as it's sold in tiny cans.

I don't know what's better, in general I'm wary of efficiency claims by the same people that are selling a product.

If you are going to be fiddling with refrigeration for a while longer, the 608 cert will make your life easier. If you're having problems with leaks, maybe an HC will be better for the environment?

[wdrzal]

First flammable refrigerants below a certain LFL are not permitted, all "refrigerants" must be recovered.you may only purchase certain ones in certain quantities mostly 134a and some replacements blends.

22a another name for LNG liquefied natural gas,propably mostly propane.look at proper shipping name in pdf file

vapor density is estamated.1.52 for 22a and 1.56 for propane add a tad bit of other "ane" natural gas/gases or they just mislead with the est. in front of 152 density


scamers..22A were is the Rxxx number... ....... pine scented R-290 LOL


also melting point of 22a is same as freezing point of propane

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Walt the data for R-290 is well documented if it where not for the PDF limit I'd post a fairly well don one comparing R-290 to R-22, propane came out on top on some aspects and below on others, either way I'd still go for the hydrocarbon my self.

The R-22a is basically straight up Care-50 but with a with a mix of butane.

Walt take your own advice, read up on it rather then presupposition.

And frankly I'd rather pine then sulfure!

[wdrzal]

First its 22A no R number, second who wants a flammable gas in your home that you might not notice leaking,especially if there are pine trees close. methyl mercaptan was picked for its un-mistakable oder,but most of all because humans can notice a few ppm easily.

It is LPG (liquefied petroleum gas) and so far illegal in usa as a refrigerant.

This type of advertising can be potentaly dangerious if someone buys this thinking it R-22 (chlorodifloromethane)

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Reality check: The amount of refrigerant that will be in the system for it to be a danger you'd have to cut the pipe holding a lighter next to it, or set it on fire. There been multiple tests don both ASHR and one other but the name escapes me atm, and both have found it just dandy in stationary equipment under 150grams, and that's allot! For an A/C the charge will be well under that.

I hate it when people pull that ZOMFG Its teh flammable! bs out, Do some back yard R&D and see for your self.

[wdrzal]

both have found it just dandy in stationary equipment under 150grams, and that's allot! For an A/C the charge will be well under that

window units have about a 1 pound charge for 6,000 btu ,central air start @ 4 to 6 pounds

150 grams is about 5-1/3 ounces or 1/3 of a pound. math not back yard R&D taught me that.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Well you obviously paid no attention, when using hydro carbons you are using significantly less and last I checked for a 6,000BTU it was 13 oz R-22 so less then a pound mate, and using an HC much less. FYI in Canada it is 300 Grams & under for stationary A/C and No limits on Automotive that I can find.

Back yard R&D had nothing to do with quantity it had to do with your thinking it will spontaneously explode with the slightest leak, or at least thats how you make it sound. I can't rightly recall last time a fridge went supernova from a hair pin leak.

[wdrzal]

Well you obviously paid no attention, when using hydro carbons you are using significantly less and last I checked for a 6,000BTU it was 13 oz R-22 so less then a pound mate, and using an HC much less. FYI in Canada it is 300 Grams & under for stationary A/C and No limits on Automotive that I can find.

Back yard R&D had nothing to do with quantity it had to do with your thinking it will spontaneously explode with the slightest leak, or at least thats how you make it sound. I can't rightly recall last time a fridge went supernova from a hair pin leak.

Just so others know you use less HC refrigerant because the specific gravity of the liquid is much different that of hcfc's

simply the same volume of liquid measure weighs less. Not all refrigerants weigh the same for the same volume.some have a specific gravity of more than 1000 kg/cu.M.---- and some less But scales are calibrated for the weight of water 1000 kg/cu.M.---------, some hcfc weigh> 1500 kg/cu.M. & propane weighs around 600 kg/cu.M.-----------iirc now a cubic meter is a large amount but as you can see there is as much as 3 to 1 difference. so you need to know how to do the math to calculate liquid volumes so you don't over fill your recover tank if going by weight.most systems do now as the floats are nice but add significant cost to a recovery tank 1/2 or more than cost of tank.

A gallon of propane weighs 4.2 pounds compared to gallon of water 8.33 pounds

[SoddemFX]

r290 ~480Kg/m^3, r22 ~1170Kg/m^3, liquid 30C

Propane has a lower discharge temperature and pressure than r22 and similar saturation temperatures, i can see why in the real world a system could have higher efficiency with r290 - but 40% sounds nuts, not believable...? Any idea how they come to this figure..?

Walt - in Europe a lot of domestic appliances run on flammable refrigerants, mainly r600a

Tom

[wdrzal]

lower discharge temperature and pressure means less work for the compressor. while r290 looks close to r22 as boiling point r22 has a much higher discharge pressure and temperature ,but similar saturation temperature, thermodynamically can carry more heat. numbers can be spun to emphasize to tell only part of the story, look at the advertisement for 22a that started this thread

look at it this way if you had to do "work" which gas would you carry to the top of the hill. How much less "work" does it take to carry the lighter refrigerant to the top of the hill.propane has a similar boiling point as r22 but does not come close in capacity, so in units XS guys build propane makes sense since you only need to move 200 watts=682 btu ,now lets say you need to move 300,000 btu but the evap temp doest dot need to be as cold,you what a capacity carrying refrigerant.

I know you Europe uses HC refrigerants,special compressors and electrical packages where designed also. That why I say not allowed in the USA.

[star882]

So what should I go with? R22 is about $90 for 30lb, the EPA certification is about $25, and the R22 substitute is about $150 for 30lb after accounting for shipping and handling fees. R22 and the EPA certification is cheaper, but is more hassle. If the R22 substitute really is more efficient, the energy saved can pay for the difference or more.

If I use the substitute, will I have to readjust the TXV? I'm not even sure if the TXV is adjustable.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

R-22 TXVs I find work just peachy with the HC blends, I'd go for the stuff any way as R-22 is geting near its phase out period and you'll be ahead of the game with a good strong skill with tuning the HC blend.

[star882]

However, I have to consider some other factors.
If the TXV is not adjustable, will I have to replace it? A new TXV is at least $40 and I would not want to replace it.
Energy saving is another thing I'm looking at. Will the 22a provide an actual boost in the effective SEER rating? Or is it too little to matter?
Would I have to make any modifications to the system for it to work good?
Will it have any impact on the lifetime of the system?
And I would like to know if anyone here has actually used 22a and experiences with it.

[wdrzal]

First refrigerant does not wear out or magically disappear, if your AC needs gas you have a Leak that needs to be found & repaired

[star882]

Of course I have to first fix the leak, but I need some new refrigerant to finish the job.
I'm just trying to decide whether to get an EPA certification and R22 or use the 22a.
I think I will give 22a a try if it actually performs better and does not require too much work.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

No you shouldn't have to adjust the TXV providing your system even has one, if it is a cap tube again you realy don't have to retune it. An HC refrigerant will not have any advers impact on the machine, if any thing it'll last longer due to the easier compression.