NEW RACE for the LOWEST NUMBER

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Hehe I can give you guys a tip learn more about your condensers, you all pay WAY to much attention to the evap yet neglect the most important part! The condenser. And there is tricks you can do as well by using a pressur or temp modulated fans to control head pressur but you must first do some thing with the condencer, this I will not say you must learn it! I have left info out of here so you must read up to get the whole picture.

[wdrzal]

I believe you need a lot of input on quad core wattage,get some answers from the master over clockers to power output,are schematics of mobos available that measurements of power supplied to CPU can be measured , all the guys in manufacturing of memory or video cards or mobo's will have the info required as their engineers will know the test points on the mobo's if they are not public, Like I said I don't or haven't followed this industry hardly at all.

It's time for the Electronic engineers who design this stuff to teach and lend a hand also, they owe that to those who buy their products.

the very first thing that needs to be know is thermal heat load conducted thru the heat spreader . or pick a number real close as everyone isn't going to have a quad core to test with for actual load, every one will have to build a load simulator.

Then you guys need to decide on a design evaporator temperature under Full CPU load.And where and how this measurment will be made.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Just make it easier for the compressor to do it's job and it'll happily consume less power. Less mass flowing through the system will also drop powerconsumption but will impact your performance.

It's all a matter of tuning, proper cap-tube length and diameter, and utilizing the most efficient means of getting the job done. A large condenser + SLHX will be a requirement, proper compressor cooling will also need to be taken into account as we'd be pushing these things very hard. Judging from the powerconsumption differences between my autocascade and singlestage which were build around identical compressors I'd safely say a "low-temp" autocascade will be the most efficient way to get this done. I'm thinking r600a to max out the condenser and help keep the compressor happy and then either jump into a mid-range gas that boils around -50 to -60 celsius and tune accordingly or try and stretch r290/r22 to handle those loads at those temperatures. I guess you could also do r600a/r290/r1150 and tune for a "high" suction pressure so that you get enough massflow to dissipate the 250 watts and the r1150 isn't boiling off at -50 to -60 celsius or lower. I imagine it could be done rather nicely and it would be a rather free-flowing system, these are all just ideas though, wouldn't know how efficient they are until numbers were crunched or a prototype was built.

An SLHX is not a magic bullet to cure all, it acts more as an unloader with the benefit of sub cooling, how ever it implements its own load as super heat. SLHXs can net an increase but only in very certain situations.

[martinjon666]

But i got my budget done and all i have to do is post the pics
My son was born the on the 28th so i haven had a chance to do that yet but i will as soon as we can get away from the hospital.

LOL i figured it would be an easy win if no one else got theirs done

[[XC] gomeler]

An SLHX is not a magic bullet to cure all, it acts more as an unloader with the benefit of sub cooling, how ever it implements its own load as super heat. SLHXs can net an increase but only in very certain situations.

I agree, they aren't a magic bullet to fix all our problems but from the reading I have done all the material suggests that they are one way to increase efficiency while adding additional load to the system. The Barnes and Nobles on campus didn't have the book that Walt reccommended, sucks when you campus teaches mainly theory and not much practical knowledge. Now I'll just be waiting to see how this thing comes around. I don't think there should be HP restrictions as we are measuring the amount of power pulled from the socket so it shouldn't matter if we place limits.

[Unknown_road]

nice one walt. Especially since my quad core ready cooler was finished months ago

[Clemmaster]

I've just one question : are 2 stages mono gas systems alowed? Such as 2 compressors in serial ?

[star882]

Has anyone thought about using a VFD? I think it can greatly increase efficiency at part load.

[epion2985]

There is only one thing to be worked on here imho. We can't control compressor volumetric efficiency etc nor other specs, we can't engineer new refrigerants. Everyone plays with charge to get best results already. Subcooling is already employed.

The problem, that was beaten to death in many other related threads, is the evap being the bottle neck. I think what the effort time and money should be going in to is the evap design as it has run out of capacity. Maybe I am wrong, but thats the impression I have after reading these threads.

[kayl]

Bout 265-275 is what we've seen.
Nice judgement Lord Wdrzal. There should be a reward though In colder temperatures. ITs a competition so you need to take into account all variables.
If I have happened to be designing for something just as you have posted, why can I not say that I have.

i guess it depends on the cold pate used and what sort of contact pressure.
I found a solid Vcore of 1.7 and around 4.1ghz on a quad core is only around 230-240W Max with my load tester not insulated.

then make it-35C or -30C if you want to make it easy. I just chose -40C/F is its where metric meets imperial, they are the same temperature.

i think 230W at -30c is realistic goal for ppl specially if going for low power unit using a 1/4Hp compresosr and 24/7 application.

The hardest part i think is determining a cold plate thickness for resistor loads and what size copper block for a heat cartridge we all used different load testers.

If we look at a cpu there is only around 2-3mm of metal between the cpu and the heat source, not 6mm + like some ppls load testers.

something like this simulates a cpu very well




Maybe temps we should have ppl insert a k-type probe into their cold plates, this would simulate die temps better and give better results. This could also be done with the copper blocks used with cartridge heatloads as well.
SO cold plate temps + evaporator temps as well as pics of the load tester under load uninsulated as well, from pics we should see frost on resistors and ice on backplates at 160w

[epion2985]

The suction line is below ambient usually so the only way to get it colder is use another stage, but then its not a SS anymore. I don't think I understand what you mean, can you explain

[TopherTony]

I've just one question : are 2 stages mono gas systems alowed? Such as 2 compressors in serial ?

As long as it uses only stage, then yeah but two compressors are going to eat up more power.

[kayl]

As long as it uses only stage, then yeah but two compressors are going to eat up more power.

2x 1/4hp compressor could use a little more than a 1/2hp.
i did a cacsade once that used 2.6A at 240v = 642w, it was a little getto though

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=68791

[_HL4E_HalfLife_]

Its just a idea ................but its already clear you guys don't understand energy..........thermodynamic or electrical.Its still energy. I sure you guys will learn a lot on this challenge,more than in the direction most ofyou are heading


voltages don't matter ,a watt is a watt,any unit of energy can be converted to any other unit. Energy is mutually convertible, we can measure in calories then eat them for energy if we want true. Of course we can't eat electrical energy,but we can take light energy and grow food we can consume.we usually call those calories.

amps X volts = watts ......this is if the load is pure resistance like a light bulb. if their is a inductive load this changes every so slightly, there is a "power factor" to be multiplied by. This number is small and changes little and since all will be using compressors(which all use inductive motors) the Field remains even.

I dono about that wdrzal, a 240v compressor is gonna have a lower amprage than a 117v compressor so lower amprage = less watts. What if someone uses a 12v compressor? or what about liquid chilling?

[Xeon th MG Pony]

W = A * V

So in the end it is the same no matter the voltage, you are correct, 240 uses less amps, but at twice the voltage so the total watts ends the same.

120V*4A=480W
240V*2A=480W

[{.bLanK} GoD]

W = A * V

One of the most common and basic electrical calculations.
If you don't know that, you should not be even looking at high voltage wiring.

[Big SturL]

I don't know the electrics behind it, but won't American 60Hz compressors be more efficient than European 50Hz ones?

[wdrzal]

240 volt here your not going phase to ground but phase to phase
so even that it comes from a single phase line on the primary side of the transformer is center tap so you have 2 phases to ground = 120 volts or phase to phase =240 volts on the secondary side of transformer.

lets say we use a 240 volt 4 amp compressor their will be 2 amps on each phase fo a total of 4.(double breaker) plus one phase may be 2 amps and the other 2.2 if your using a 120 volt condensor fan that draws .2 amps ,so the phases are not perfectly balenced. This is OK to a point.

[wdrzal]

I don't know the electrics behind it, but won't American 60Hz compressors be more efficient than European 50Hz ones?

A multimeter measures Vrms (volts root mean squared) 120v actually has 170volt peakes and valleys but since the sine wave is measuered over time 60hz or 50 hz, the Vrms has considered the HZ to give you a volt reading.

energy can neither be made or destroyed so all you need is the correct formula and understand "how things work" to put everting on a even keel.

wwwhowstuffworks.com has a excellant article on how power grids work, look it to and read it.

[Big SturL]

Errr... not like that. 60Hz=3600 RPM, 50Hz=3000RPM. Of course, no compressors run that fast, so you have do multiply it by a factor, but 3600 divided by 3000 gives us 1.2, which suggests that a 60Hz comp is 1,2 times faster than a 50Hz.

OF COURSE, JUST A THEORY! But, I know for a fact that 60Hz engines and so on, runs faster than 50Hz. Whether this draws more power or not, I'm not sure of.

[wdrzal]

XS members there are many good books and some decent sites on the Internet, but first choice is a book. Get one and study it first then ask questions .

I don't have the time to sit here all day and keep answering question after question when that information is readily available. You don't want in my black book under the Letter L (Lazy) do you ? Its your responsibility to do most all research and study on your own as no one here gets paid to sit here and answerer question after question all day long.

You need a comprehensive knowledge of electricity to work with it safely, I'm not about to sit here and type 500 pages so you don't have to move your behind and do something for your self,I sooner put you in my book under L as a forum is a two way street, you need to take care of your side.

Many single sentences questions may take several pages to answer and books will have graphs and pictures to help you understand when needed.Then even a several page answer does not cover every thing you do not know.

After you did some hard core studying and can't figure something out then ask.

PS: notice I addressed this to XS members not any one in particular as I think many of you need to do more self study off the net instead of just getting bits and partial answers here and there.

Gets books on electricity and refrigeration then study them ,then you will realize how much you don't know and thats what gets you hurt or killed.

I just wanted to add unless you read a book on the subject from cover to cover you will never understand anything as many forums have completely wrong answers and don't even talk about some of the most important information you ABSOLUTELY need to know. You can't advance or you won't get far to you hit a wall if you do not know the basics and physics of topic

[Unknown_road]

tom, I don't know if the danfoss compressors are 4-pole but I know the rest is correct.

[M.Beier]

XS members there are many good books and some decent sites on the Internet, but first choice is a book. Get one and study it first then ask questions .

I don't have the time to sit here all day and keep answering question after question when that information is readily available. You don't want in my black book under the Letter L (Lazy) do you ? Its your responsibility to do most all research and study on your own as no one here gets paid to sit here and answerer question after question all day long.

You need a comprehensive knowledge of electricity to work with it safely, I'm not about to sit here and type 500 pages so you don't have to move your behind and do something for your self,I sooner put you in my book under L as a forum is a two way street, you need to take care of your side.

Many single sentences questions may take several pages to answer and books will have graphs and pictures to help you understand when needed.Then even a several page answer does not cover every thing you do not know.

After you did some hard core studying and can't figure something out then ask.

PS: notice I addressed this to XS members not any one in particular as I think many of you need to do more self study off the net instead of just getting bits and partial answers here and there.

Gets books on electricity and refrigeration then study them ,then you will realize how much you don't know and thats what gets you hurt or killed.

I just wanted to add unless you read a book on the subject from cover to cover you will never understand anything as many forums have completely wrong answers and don't even talk about some of the most important information you ABSOLUTELY need to know. You can't advance or you won't get far to you hit a wall if you do not know the basics and physics of topic

A book, what is a book?
Gah, I hate 'em.. Always miss the "CTRL+F" function when reading a book.. Especially when its for educational purpos..

- Great contest tho'

[Unknown_road]

I don't use coolpack that often anymore, I stopped doing calculations one or two years ago but you might be right.

[wdrzal]

I spoke to DetrotAc as he does R&D work, he thinks this is a good idea ,but made 1 recommendation that I missed:

ALL builds will be limited to a single gas.......here's why:

Refrigeration is a precise science, by mixing gases he said your turning it into black magic. I agree if you do not have a pressure /temperature chart you have no idea of what the charge is. nor could you reproduce it as most don't have the tools to do so. so lets start simple and learn the basics, you'll be surprised how much you never even heard about.

mixing gases is no more than a guess and a prayer,and one of the requirements is that your build must be able to be reproduced so you must be able to measure sub-cooling & superheat......by mixing gases you have no idea since you have no P/t chart. DetroutAC is busy as he moved into a new home but I sure he will help out if we keep this to the SCIENCE of refrigeration & not the dangerous black magic.