hwboints rev2

[jmke]

* difference between TOP 5 and lower scores it too small, HWBoints should rank up quicker when you near the top.

* Award every best score points to encourage higher participation.

* Balance global ranking with hardware ranking, a little more weight towards hardware ranking to make benchmarking slightly less popular HW worthwhile.

the team ranking can be made more interesting by limiting top=n to encourage team competition. but it's not final, and nobody said it was, it's a discussion, not a dictator ship, some here fail to notice the difference

@cadaveca: the changes mentioned above here in my post would be for the better for the "low level" benchers;

[HeavyH20]

Have to agree with jmke. They are simply tweaking the system. Adding more points for the average, casual bencher, reducing the effect of pure membership on the team score, and granting more points for the top 20 instead of the top 5. Nothing really that big.

If anything, these changes work toward removing the elitist stigma rather than create it. If only the biggest sites can win the team title, and the casual bencher cannot get any decent points, why play?

Let's say you are a casual bencher on a small site (not XS). Your team is small so they cannot compete on the team ranking against the XS Juggernaut and the leaders' scores are 300 times higher than yours. Hmm, joining certainly does not sound very intriguing.

[cadaveca]

Well, when i noticed a long time ago that my GDDR4 x1950xtx and crossfire was grouped with 256mb GDDR3 cards, i gave up on hwbot. If you cannot differentiate between the hardware...what's the point?

I'm sry if this seems a bit irrational, but really...noone with actual x1950xt can compete....

[jmke]

make suggestions in the hwbot forums for adding HW, that's what they are for

[cadaveca]

Yes, I understand, but this is more than what a casual bencher will udnertake. for those really concerned about points, they will cry foul, but others(like me) take advantage of the system...


I'm not trying to make light of anything, but before you can distribute points, you gotta be able to confirm the hardware being used to get those points. I plainly advertised in all forum posts with scores as to what my system was truly comprised of, yet your system changed my rig to fit within a lower class as there wasn't a class for it to fit into ATM. I should not have to point this out.... That would be up the the staff @ hwbot...not just the top scores need policing.

[jmke]

we're all adults here, I hope, HWBot is a based on contributions and coding on voluntary basis, we have people who work at keeping the hardware database and auto detect codes up to date with the hardware that is out there, but you can't expect to have everything in there from the get go;

if you find your hardware to be not present in the video card database, a small post in the current forum and a few days later I'll show up and you can link it with your profile.

pretty casual action

[cadaveca]

Yes, I agree, however the casual bencher may not be aware that there IS a forum where this sort of thing can be addressed. I wasn't until recently, myself.

Maybe a little link within a person's profile to report thier own scores?

[jmke]

good idea, when hardware is not listed, possibility to send in small report for inclusion.

I'm a casual bencher too btw, beat your HWboints score by a massive 0.5!

[cadaveca]

lol i'd be a bit more casual than you...you have many more results!

[jmke]

Well I'm on the bot since February 2006 so that might account for most of them as the bot scanned our forums where there are results which date from several years back. Only recent benches I did was with Core2/G80 and that was 1 hour tops for the Futuremarks

[kiwi]

Air, water results category are useless since ambient air delta is too big

[massman]

I'm not trying to make light of anything, but before you can distribute points, you gotta be able to confirm the hardware being used to get those points. I plainly advertised in all forum posts with scores as to what my system was truly comprised of, yet your system changed my rig to fit within a lower class as there wasn't a class for it to fit into ATM. I should not have to point this out.... That would be up the the staff @ hwbot...not just the top scores need policing.

Like JMke already said, not it's not doable to check 30k results and verify them.

Unless you want to hire us and pay us to make this our job ?

[Vapor]

As a casual bencher....I very much like the current system. I have to fight for my points for my team and they help my team. But at the same time, I'm not getting the same amount of points as a top guy does. That's exactly how it should be. Why change it if it's not broke?

I'm having a hard time finding the exact points that people have issue with the current system.....so I'll list where I have issue with the proposed system.

1) I don't want free points for just trying. If my score isn't good enough to give my team points, don't give me sympathy points. People will try, and if they don't cut it, they don't cut it.

2) At the same time, don't make it that top scores are so valuable, that 'lower' scores are an afterthought. Every member, if they're capable, should be able to contribute to their team in a worthwhile manner. However, if their scores are not good enough for points, they'll have to try harder.

3) Making it such that only the top 40 contribute to the premiere HOF standing will truly discourage participartion.....if someone figures they can contribute 40 points from casual benching, but the top 40 cut off is at 65 points, they just won't bother. As it stands, benchmarking less popular hardware is very worthwhile....that's how I have all my team's points and until today I was proud of my contribution.

4) The motive for the change is to lessen what the largest team is capable of. That's not how you level the field. Considering the current points system, it's actually feasible to beat a larger team, you just need to earn the points through getting very good scores that beat their very good scores. The new system seems to be pulling a Tonya Harding on the competition.....

Like DC apps, you can overcome having fewer benchers by just doing it better than them. Have your casual benchers beat our casual benchers and have your top guys beat our top guys.....you'd be surprised how quickly "just doing it better" adds up with the current point system (afterall, not only does it increase your own points, it lowers their points)

[HeavyH20]

Well, let's flip the bit a little. Let's say you are on a smaller team, 80 users, and you all have decent scores. But, since your team does not have the funding to give away a $500 prize for team participation, your recruiting efforts are less efficient. I guess the big get bigger and the rest are hung out to dry. Yep, sounds fair.

[Vapor]

If you want to be the better team, get the better scores across the board.

The rest of the teams aren't hung out to dry at all....otherwise they wouldn't be competing.

Use the competition as the carrot.

We certainly did....when XS fell to #2, I submitted my results to hwbot. So did other XSrs. Others just ratcheted up their effort.

One of the things the owner was capable of doing for helping his team was to invest in a hardware 'carrot' for others and used that to get points. OCX could do the same thing, rather than going out and getting a QX6700 that might net an extra 40 points, you could get 2 $500 prizes and get more contribution from all netting an extra 400 points.

As someone who contributes to XSDC, I'm extremely familiar with being the 'small guy' and with effort you can get to the top.

[cadaveca]

Like JMke already said, not it's not doable to check 30k results and verify them.

Unless you want to hire us and pay us to make this our job ?

I am very sorry for saying this, but...

If you intend to keep an semi-offical database of scores that are used to compare "world rankings", then you better dman well be able to police the database, or ALL SCORES ARE SUSPECT, as is the usefulness of the site. As it is now, no, I WOULD NOT PAY for such a system. Show me a viable database where results are verified to be good, then you've got a marketable system.


I'm not trying to make light of what you guys are doing, but if you DO intend this to be more than it already is, you really must consider this.

"Pay me!" is not the way to properly market yourself. I actually just lost a lot of respect for you because of this comment...you make it obvious that it's all about money.


"We are doing our best with the resources currently available, and are looking into making this a viable option, but finances are an issue at this point" would have rubbed me the right way.

[HeavyH20]

and so what does a bigger site has to do with a smaller one that can't cut it? law of the strongest i would say...
it's not like that team just popped out the ground with a enormous base...
they had to work their ass of as well, if you get what i mean..

I am not speaking for OCX. We do fine as is. And, if we wanted to give away a prize, that would be easy enough. So, following your logic, a large team of casual benchers could win the team category without single user in the Top 50. The goal is to create competition, not a popularity contest. Besides, even with the Top 40 limit, XS is still well in the lead.

The smaller teams are working hard and recruiting for a team is crucial to success, to which all of them are diligently working. Until the middle of January, I did not know much about HWBOT or the team competition until someone from OCX approached me. So, that part does work. I suppose we could get [H] members to form a team, and with their size, they would be the run away leader.

[Movieman]

Movieman, read what you want into it, that is your decision to "take your ball and run home"

I'd planned to get the hell out of this thread but I don't like leaving and having someone take a cheap shot at me.
I took no ball, that implies that I stopped the game.
I did not stop it, actually you people are the ones taking the ability to "play" on a team level away from hundreds of people on XS.
Since it's obvious that decision has already been made I've voiced my displeasure, deleted my submissions at your site and will encourage others to do the same. Good day gentlemen.

[HeavyH20]

Your choice of adjectives is improper. No cheap shot was made. Your comment:

I'll be right over to delete my account and my results as I wouldn't want any of my air cooled results to get in the way of what you guys have planned.

was exactly that, taking your ball and going home.

I do not represent HWBOT, far from it. I am a simple casual bencher myself, and I cannot understand why giving MORE points to MORE users is a bad thing. And, I cannot understand why the limitation of a team size is in any way a bad thing. It promotes competition. While it may limit the inclusiveness of the team, it makes for better inclusiveness of the general OC community outside of XS. If the competition is reduced to a war of popularity, then the team competition will never be fair, and will utlimately kill the race. While some may feel left out, their individual contributions still help. The more results there are, the more impact in boints that category will have. That, in turn, helps the team, as well.

But, I suppose there is no method to keep everyone happy. There are also complaints that there is no AMD only race or ATI only race since the 8800 GTX and Intel Core 2 Duo are dominating. But, I guess that just goes with the nature of a race.

[Movieman]

Your choice of adjectives is improper. No cheap shot was made. Your comment:



was exactly that, taking your ball and going home.

I do not represent HWBOT, far from it. I am a simple casual bencher myself, and I cannot understand why giving MORE points to MORE users is a bad thing. And, I cannot understand why the limitation of a team size is in any way a bad thing. It promotes competition. While it may limit the inclusiveness of the team, it makes for better inclusiveness of the general OC community outside of XS. If the competition is reduced to a war of popularity, then the team competition will never be fair, and will utlimately kill the race. While some may feel left out, their individual contributions still help. The more results there are, the more impact in boints that category will have. That, in turn, helps the team, as well.

But, I suppose there is no method to keep everyone happy. There are also complaints that there is no AMD only race or ATI only race since the 8800 GTX and Intel Core 2 Duo are dominating. That just goes with the nature of a race.

Deleting my account effects ONLY me. Now I will ask you nicely not to repeat that remark to me or I will nicely ask that you be given a vacation.
Let it go my friend.

[HeavyH20]

Well, to be fair, it was an accurate account of the action. Plain and simple. Hard to argue any different. And, thanks for the threat, I was trying not the debase this to a personal tyrade, but unfortunately, it looks like it has taken that route.

And, remember, these are proposed changes, not current. The discussion was to simply determine the effects, positive or negative to the current state. You have pointed out the negatives from your own perspective, and that is noted. But, from a larger picture, I think these changes will have a positive impact on the OC community as a whole. No change will impact everyone in a positive manner, but, reducing the negative impact to as few as possible is always a good goal. I think the new rev 2 boints accomplishes this task effectively.

[massman]

I am very sorry for saying this, but...

If you intend to keep an semi-offical database of scores that are used to compare "world rankings", then you better dman well be able to police the database, or ALL SCORES ARE SUSPECT, as is the usefulness of the site. As it is now, no, I WOULD NOT PAY for such a system. Show me a viable database where results are verified to be good, then you've got a marketable system.


I'm not trying to make light of what you guys are doing, but if you DO intend this to be more than it already is, you really must consider this.

"Pay me!" is not the way to properly market yourself. I actually just lost a lot of respect for you because of this comment...you make it obvious that it's all about money.


"We are doing our best with the resources currently available, and are looking into making this a viable option, but finances are an issue at this point" would have rubbed me the right way.

I guess you have no idea how much time the crew puts in HWBot. Every day we have more than 64 reported result which takes about 1 hour 30 min to check for validation (if it's a result from a forum, check the forum for results). Apart from that, we have the results reported on our forums, PM's we need to answer and then we have our daily job/school.

I know, we have chosen for this, but you need to know that clearing the database from all wrong results (mostly it's just adding a screenshot or changing the cpu) would take ages to do and every day we recieve about 300 new results. This would only be possible if this would be our job.

But, with our 'report to moderator' service, we try to fix the obvious ones. So we are not letting the database become dirty so we can say 'pay us'. I'm a little upset of you having less respect because of that post, but I'll get over it.

[kiwi]

massman PM, I hope you are the right person from hwbot

[Eldonko]

I dunno how this thread is going to help anything. Its obvious everyone at XS wants to keep the system how it is because it benefits them and everyone on the smaller teams wants the change to occur because it benefits them. Unfortunately whatever hwbot does you guys are going to jump all over them no matter what. Cut them some slack, they are just trying to help make the system more fun for everyone. Some will be pissed, some will be happy, hopefully in the end more will be happy than pissed.

[[XC] riptide]

Movieman! Don't delete those scores or I'll kick your ass!!