hwboints rev2

[jmke]

What you need to score higher with that system :
Here we go ... find A LOT of old cheap/free hardware and just bench it all , no need to overclock (unless you want )
Get at least 8 points (SuperPI 1M / 32M , PiFast , CPU-Z , PCMark04/05 , WPrime32/1024) guaranteed for EVERY CPU , no matter how it scores and clocks
Get at least 5 points (3d01/03/05/06/AM3) for almost every GPU, almost because some wont run all 3dmarks , no matter how it scores ...
Get all 78 Celerons , bench them all and get 78x8=624 points guaranteed no matter how bad you scored
With old (current) system at least you have to try , even with old hardware you need to be top5 in HW class to score ... with 1 point guaranteed all you have to do is get MORE and MORE hardware , and just test it non stop lol . How does that make sense ?

so wait.. spending more time and resources on benchmarking gets you more boints? who would have thought?

[jmke]

Changing the rules of the game in the middle of the game is never fair, IMHO.

DDTUNG

it's like their wasn't a large header above each HWBOINT ranking that the algorithm was in BETA and subject to change... right?

[jmke]

To take this line of reasoning one step further, shouldn't we limit the number of scores from each member? Where does one draw the line?

read the first post more attentively, more results doesn't equal very high score, as only the best result will net your boints

JMke

[Movieman]

it's like their wasn't a large header above each HWBOINT ranking that the algorithm was in BETA and subject to change... right?

A Beta generally means that an app is near to the final copy, not that it will be turned upside down and inside out for it's next release.
The kind of change thats being proposed here is the type that one would expect to see while it was still with the programmers before any release.
By the way, just out of curiousity, what team do you bench for?
Thanks in advance for your reply.

[DDTUNG]

read the first post more attentively, more results doesn't equal very high score, as only the best result will net your boints

JMke

Obviously. One look at the number of results submitted by Kingpin and OPB and their respective positions confirms that. But it is also obvious you did not follow the logic of my original statement.

DDTUNG

[massman]

A Beta generally means that an app is near to the final copy, not that it will be turned upside down and inside out for it's next release.
The kind of change thats being proposed here is the type that one would expect to see while it was still with the programmers before any release.
By the way, just out of curiousity, what team do you bench for?
Thanks in advance for your reply.

The base of the hwboints stays pretty much the same, so the members ranking won't change that much. We're only trying to find the best solution for the teams ranking. You can't say this is completely turned upside down.

He benches for [M]adshrimps

[HeavyH20]

You don't have to talk to me like 3D benching was a mystery. I know all about what it takes to score a top bench. Been there myself a few years back along with OPP, MrIcee, Macci, DJ and the rest. Without the latest hardware and extreme cooling one will not get to the top of the ORB, however many hours spent tweaking and benching.

Benching is not a spectator sport. It's about pushing whatever system you have to its limit in a certain set of tests. Awarding benchers using high and low end equipment disproportionately, like what is being done, is unfair.

Team competition can only be fair if the same equipment is used by a fixed number of members from each team. Only then will it be a true test of skill.

DDTUNG

There is no mystery, and, yes, you need some very good equipment to get to the top. The more we go through this, the more it reminds me of racing cars. Brackets, classes, and defined specs and all the cars race on the same track. There is no less effort to win any category, but we all watch the F1 cars, not the unlimited GT. And much like boints, the paydays for winning F1 are a little bigger due to popularity.

And, like racing, winning is is a mix of equipment and skills. The two are married. So, a skills competition alone can never exist and will draw little attention.

There is no right way to create a fair arena since we are basically running an unlimited open category race. The fastest wins in each category, period. So, a Xeon 5350 will win in the FPU tests and the Kentsfield gaming rigs in the 3DMark06 race.

[DDTUNG]

it's like their wasn't a large header above each HWBOINT ranking that the algorithm was in BETA and subject to change... right?

Change that penalizes a particular group will not be welcome.

DDTUNG

[jmke]

the boint system that is currently in use was never defined as final, and it is open for change in the beginning fase as we started to learn how it would react to different HW submissions and teams, mtzki is striving to make a system to balance between hardware and global boints, a balance between team scores and individual scores. Not easily done, proposal here is not to make it unfair for a particular group, we couldn't care less (in HWBoint calculation view) which teams are at the top, how many members they have and how many points they have. The idea is to streamline the HWbot team ranking to make it less likely that by simply submitting a lot of scores with hunderds of people, you get top spot.

HWbot and benchmarking is not like DC, F@H or other none benchmark related rankings; a balance has to be found between the above mentioned parameters, and some choices are to be made to make it future proof, currently the database is filling up nicely with reference scores but we need to focus on how we can spice up the team competition as well as the individual competition, without braking the whole site;

mtzki posted here to hear you thoughts on his proposal as some changes are going to be made, but which one exactly and how do we define some of the parameters in the calculation process.

it seems to me that you don't get the whole idea of "making the competition interesting", what I read here mostly is a biased opinion because you bench for XS and currently have an unchallenged lead because of the massive following?

JMke

[DDTUNG]

There is no mystery, and, yes, you need some very good equipment to get to the top. The more we go through this, the more it reminds me of racing cars. Brackets, classes, and defined specs and all the cars race on the same track. There is no less effort to win any category, but we all watch the F1 cars, not the unlimited GT. And much like boints, the paydays for winning F1 are a little bigger due to popularity.

And, like racing, winning is is a mix of equipment and skills. The two are married. So, a skills competition alone can never exist and will draw little attention.

There is no right way to create a fair arena since we are basically running an unlimited open category race. The fastest wins in each category, period. So, a Xeon 5350 will win in the FPU tests and the Kentsfield gaming rigs in the 3DMark06 race.

The more I read your posts the stronger feeling I get that you are trying to turn benching into a commercial proposition.

But I thought you were saying a few posts back that the team with the best benching skills should win.

If it is truly open category, then why is HWbot trying to award more points to the little guys? Please make up your mind.

I have no desire to see this thread filled by arguments like the ones you or jmke are starting, so I will refrain from further comments.

DDTUNG

[ojdr2001]

No changes that benefits a particular group, will be welcome I suppose

[Movieman]

Let me try and say this with all the emotion and the side issues left out of this.
If there is a change that only accepts the top 40 members that change effectively only hurts one team. Is that essentially correct?
Aside from that, it is a slap in the face to anyone from any team who can no longer contribute to "their" team.
God's truth guys, there are a hell of a lot of us that do this JUST for the team and the individual points mean squat diddley.

No changes that benefits a particular group, will be welcome I suppose

Correct and by that logic no change should be made that benefits a particular group.

[ojdr2001]

If there is a change that only accepts the top 40 members that change effectively only hurts one team. Is that essentially correct?

Exactly. Thats why is correct... means the present system benefits only one team....

[Movieman]

Exactly. Thats why is correct... means the present system benefits only one team....

No, the present system benefits every team. Every team is free to solicit any amount of people they care to. Freedom of choice.

[jmke]

yes we all know the amount of people into benchmarking is 99% of the PC market

[HeavyH20]

The more I read your posts the stronger feeling I get that you are trying to turn benching into a commercial proposition.

But I thought you were saying a few posts back that the team with the best benching skills should win.

If it is truly open category, then why is HWbot trying to award more points to the little guys? Please make up your mind.

I have no desire to see this thread filled by arguments like the ones you or jmke are starting, so I will refrain from further comments.

DDTUNG

I do not see anyone arguing. This is simply an open discussion on how to make HWBOT successful, not XS. Even with the new system, XS will still own the top team spot. And, in open racing categories, only the fastest 20 cars in each category are allowed on the track.

The best benching skills will and have won. But, they are married to the equipment as well. So, even with great skills and an air cooled system, you will not win. That is expected, however. I think what you are looking for is recognition as the top in each category/class. So, the best air cooled, watercooled, phase, and LN2 cooled x6800 should be recognized? And, should points be awarded for that accomplishment? And, then, how would you determine if it was really air cooled? That is the difficulty.

As for the commercial component, yes. It is for HWBOT. They are not simply doing this for pure fun, they need to have some sponsorships to make the success of the site feasible and affordable. So, the popular/current hardware benchmarks are what interests people. It certainly draws web traffic to VR-Zone when Shimano puts up some big numbers with some newly released equipment.

I think we are all striving for the same thing from different angles.

No, the present system benefits every team. Every team is free to solicit any amount of people they care to. Freedom of choice.

So, it is now a popularity vote? I would rather see XS win with atleast a few people in the Top 40 list. With the current algorithm, if you have thousands of average results, you have the best team. I would rather see the big dogs(like OPB, hipro5, Overklokk, k|ngp|n, etc) race for individual and team results.

[DDTUNG]

it seems to me that you don't get the whole idea of "making the competition interesting", what I read here mostly is a biased opinion because you bench for XS and currently have an unchallenged lead because of the massive following?

JMke

Just one more response before I stop.

All through this thread I have tried to make constructive discussion including some suggestions of how to make the points system and competition more fair. Now I am being called biased.

DDTUNG

[Movieman]

yes we all know the amount of people into benchmarking is 99% of the PC market

I totally missed your point if there was one. The people on these forums involved don't represent the entire PC market and you know that so why make that comment?

So, it is now a popularity vote?

That is not what I said at all. I was answering a point about teams and the current situation favoring the team with more members.
It is the freedom of choice of everyone to bench for who they want to.
That was my point. Lets take your comment one step further: What if everone decided to bench for one team? By what has been proposed here today no one but the top 40 would be allowed to be on that team.
I'm back to point one, to do this you really are shooting yourself in the foot.

[HeavyH20]

Anyone can bench for whoever they want. That is not at issue. But, popularity alone should not mean a team should win. No bullet holes in my feet.

[jmke]

I have no desire to see this thread filled by arguments

yes flaming is so much better; arguments ruin it all.... :/ where exactly are your constructive posts in this thread that help with the issue at hand and relate to the first post? All I see is "that change of HWBot will be bad for XS, you don't change beta code, ... etc"

I totally missed your point if there was one. The people on these forums involved don't represent the entire PC market and you know that so why make that comment?

the enthusiast market is not endless, there is a limit to the amount of people who benchmark actively for fun, if you have for example 10.000 peeps, and they are divided among 100 teams, but 2-3 teams cover the first 7000 peeps, how interesting will team competition be? The other 97 can't just recruit member out of thin air

why are people slammed down for thinking outside the box here? Why does it have to relate to DC, F@H, it has nothing to do with that at all. :-/

JMke

[Movieman]

What was portrayed as a discussion has now turned into what it really was:
A veiled way to say to XS that" guess what guys, we're changing all the rules because you guys just can bring too much to the team competitions and other teams aren't happy so we're cutting the team competition down to the top 40 people making HWBot an eliteist site for only those that can bench with phase,DI or LN2 and oops, yea, we'll probably lose all those DI guys here too cause they just aren't the cream of the crop."
The more that has been said today the more it shows that this decision was made long before this thread was started.
I'll be right over to delete my account and my results as I wouldn't want any of my air cooled results to get in the way of what you guys have planned.
If that sounds a little too cold and spiteful,good, because thats exactly how I feel after being told by you that I'm not good enough to even add to the teams totals.
Sayonara, I'm out of here.

[jmke]

yes, our team (madshrimps) is stuck full of LN2/DI guys and we're sure to meet that 40 member quota, we're doing this to screw over XS and put some elite teams in front, you got it all figured out. Bravo!

[cadaveca]

Actually, as a one of those "lower-rank banchers", I feel the same as movieman. I got #2 spots for my hardware, #2's I don't have are only one weekend of benching away. I kind of pride myself on that... my 24/7 system is #2!!

Tell me, please, how someone such as myself, who's scores are only eclipsed by D/I, LN2 bencher...is gonna compete, in the new scheme? I cannot.

That means the $1000+ I spend a month on my personal hardware, tweaking, trying to find more performance, is just for my own personal benefit, and not for the team here. Now, if i decided that i spend that money on cooling, rather than a myriad of hardware, I could compete, I suppose, but to what end? Sure i can have good idea as to how cpu's will clock now, becuase I have many, but what happens when I must spend money on cooling, instead of parts to ensure I know what I am doing?


This would be the perfect definition of "elitist". You need the elitist hardware(cooling) to compete. I'm just a nobody, and I like it that way. You are seemingly making this for peopele that want "to be someone", which makes no sense, imho.


Time to re-think benching, i think. Knitting sounds fun....

[HeavyH20]

Movieman, read what you want into it, that is your decision to "take your ball and run home". But, as stated, the team competition could maintain two team categories. One for overall points (popular vote, so to speak and currently in force) and the other for overall best team (by considering the Top 40 scores). HWBot Rev 2 may not address this, but it is a work in progress.

I for one, run my benches on my 24/7 gaming system. I do not consider myself any type of elitist bencher. I do it on a casual basis, at best. I use it for e-mail, playing games, and the occasional benches. And, I do not spend thousands per month on hardware. It is a simple hobby that I enjoy. And, look at EVA2000. He runs air and watercooling yet finds himself in the top 10.

[Vapor]

Out of curiosity....

Let's all step back for a sec and let me ask this:
What is EXPLICITLY wrong with the current points system?