(bad?) idea

[flclisgreat]

its like -2F outside right now. i want to start the benching outside, but don't want to loose any hardware in the attempt . i have watercooling with antifreeze in the lines already, just condensation or just the cold might kill something.


thoughts?

[epion2985]

Cold no. We bench here at -150F with cascades, but I guess you are referring to the whole pc. Still -2F is very warm. Cheap capacitors don't like to go below -90F.

I don't know about optical drives but I can tell you taking hard drives below 0C is dangerous as magnetic properties change and you can kill the drive or loose/corrupt the data.

You might get condensation, especially when you bring the cold pc back inside.

Pretty bad idea.

[Gautam]

Keep the computer off when bringing it back inside...that solves problem one, lol.

The hard drives would be a problem were they actually running at 0C. In reality, even with cold ambients, you can still expect them to be around 30C or so whilst running.

People do outdoors benching all time, there's nothing dangerous about it at all.

(Ok, fine, in premise anything and everything could be dangerous)

[flclisgreat]

so i got a vote for its dumb, and a vote for its fine. which do i chose?

[Gautam]

No guts, no glory.

Seriously, there's a whole thread full of people who've done it, many with far colder temps than the ones you're looking at. (I have myself in -5C ambients with no bad repercussions)

[flclisgreat]

weather.com says -10*F(with wind chill) here. gona move it outside soon as i do the dishes. taking out my dvd drive, just incase.

edit: or not. the sink is clogged. doesn't look like i will make it outside today. maybe this weekend when i get my new 3800+

[epion2985]

Keep the computer off when bringing it back inside...that solves problem one, lol.

If you bring a cold computer inside water in the air will condense on it like it would on a cold soda can.

The hard drives would be a problem were they actually running at 0C. In reality, even with cold ambients, you can still expect them to be around 30C or so whilst running.

At -20C air temp pretty sure his drives will be running below 0C or close to it.

People do outdoors benching all time, there's nothing dangerous about it at all.

(Ok, fine, in premise anything and everything could be dangerous)

People also loose their hardware due to condensation all the time

No guts, no glory.

Seriously, there's a whole thread full of people who've done it, many with far colder temps than the ones you're looking at. (I have myself in -5C ambients with no bad repercussions)

He said -2F (-10F now), thats about -20C not -5......

so i got a vote for its dumb, and a vote for its fine. which do i chose?

The vote for yes is just because he isn't risking anything telling you to do it.

[flclisgreat]

yeah i was thinking about the dreaded condensation. i could just not turn it on for a while after i bring it in. was thinking about taking out my old crt and running my hhd right on top of it to get some heat to it.

[Gautam]

epion, I hope you understand I mean no offense by saying this, but I've been running various forms of subzero cooling for the past 2 years, and I think I know all about condensation death and how to prevent it. I just linked to a thread with many accounts of people brining their systems outdoors, not only that, I have done it myself. Perhaps if you find an actual instance of someone benching outdoors and managing somehow to kill something, your case would be stronger.

I know zakelwe for one does this just about every single year, in outdoor temperatures at -20C or so. macci and several others have been known to use still colder ambients in northern Europe.

I probably should have made myself clearer about the part about bringing the system inside, what I meant was, if its off, you can give it time to thaw and clean off any condensation that does occur. (Personally I had none, except for spots where that I stupidly felt like touching to see how cold they were)

And about the hard drives, I doubt it. They generally run a good 30C over ambient. Some run even hotter than that.

You're only basing stuff off your own perceptions, and frankly your thoughts are only your speculation. Being precautious is one thing, but you're being a bit overzealous here IMHO. If we tried to make sure our risks of doing everything were 0% on the dot, we wouldn't even get out of bed.

[Gautam]

Some more accounts:

-20C: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...98&postcount=2

-18C http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=158

-10C http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=279

-7C http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=129383

[epion2985]

epion, I hope you understand I mean no offense by saying this, but I've been running various forms of subzero cooling for the past 2 years, and I think I know all about condensation death and how to prevent it. I just linked to a thread with many accounts of people brining their systems outdoors, not only that, I have done it myself. Perhaps if you find an actual instance of someone benching outdoors and managing somehow to kill something, your case would be stronger.

I know zakelwe for one does this just about every single year, in outdoor temperatures at -20C or so. macci and several others have been known to use still colder ambients in northern Europe.

I probably should have made myself clearer about the part about bringing the system inside, what I meant was, if its off, you can give it time to thaw and clean off any condensation that does occur. (Personally I had none, except for spots where that I stupidly felt like touching to see how cold they were)

And about the hard drives, I doubt it. They generally run a good 30C over ambient. Some run even hotter than that.

You're only basing stuff off your own perceptions, and frankly your thoughts are only your speculation. Being precautious is one thing, but you're being a bit overzealous here IMHO. If we tried to make sure our risks of doing everything were 0% on the dot, we wouldn't even get out of bed.

You base what you say on your experiences that were conducted in a non controlled environment and are void of any concrete meaning.

As for the hard drives mine may run at about 30C in my room, outside though at -20C I seriously doubt it will run at 30C.

The FACT is:

IF: surface temperature is below dew point
THEN: condensation will occur

End of argument.

I don't know what you have experienced but its irrelevant, at least in the way you state it. I don't know what the humidity was in your experience nor any other information.

Unless its dry as a desert where he lives I would bet his computer would be well below due point when he brings it inside. At a dry 30% and +10C the dew point is -6C and if he has -20C outside I am pretty sure he is going to be on the wet side of the chart.

[boshuter]

so i got a vote for its dumb, and a vote for its fine. which do i chose?

Well you have two opinions.... one is from a well respected oc'er that has tried it, and given you links to lots of others that have done it.

Then you have another opinion...


Hmmm

[flclisgreat]

can i get some steps to help me prevent condensation. i know the most obvious one, don't turn my pc on for a while after i bring it back in, and check for condensation before i do.

weather.com says its 6*F outside right now, and it feels like -11*F

[[XC] MarioMaster]

if you do see some condensation when you get back in, just have say a house fan and blow it in your case, it should evaporate fairly quickly. i've taken my laptop outside and the HDD was at 8C still working fine, cpu was below zero and brought it back in while still running with no issues whatsoever

[epion2985]

Well you have two opinions.... one is from a well respected oc'er that has tried it, and given you links to lots of others that have done it.

Then you have another opinion...


Hmmm

.....on the other hand you have no opinions but laws of physics, but frankly this is a stupid argument. All the superficial experience in the world won't change the dew point nor the laws of physics. Maybe he got lucky and didn't have problems, it was an uncontrolled environment and there is no concrete proof this guys hardware will be fine. I only speak on the principles of physics which are always true regardless of who is applying them

can i get some steps to help me prevent condensation. i know the most obvious one, don't turn my pc on for a while after i bring it back in, and check for condensation before i do.

weather.com says its 6*F outside right now, and it feels like -11*F

When you turn on your pc could or could not matter. Your capacitors still store charge and its possible to short something even with the computer off.

All you need to do is follow the laws of physics. Keep pc temperature ABOVE dew point. Which will be a lot higher inside. Meaning your computer needs to be as warm as possible when you bring it inside.

Think of it like this, when you take a cold can of soda from your fridge in the summer it get very wet very fast, because the surface is well below the due point temperature at the given humidity. If the can was hot it wouldn't happen would it. So make sure your hardware is warm when you bring it inside, otherwise it will be like taking a cold soda can out of the fridge.

[Gautam]

Actually, you have engineering majors in both hands.

At first, I was trying to figure out exactly what you're trying to argue. I think we can both agree that no condensation will occur while the system is outdoors, barring any sort of precipitation.

The FACT is:

IF: surface temperature is below dew point
THEN: condensation will occur

Unless the system is somehow running below ambient.

--

So the issue is brining the system indoors. Note that I stated from the beginning that I understand that condensation will likely occur when bringing it from outdoors to indoors. There's little question about that. It just won't hurt anything while the system is off. From there, you can use a fan or a hair dryer to take off any that does form.

Chances of shorted caps killing something...theoretically possible but chances extremely low. Now even if we assume 70%+ humidity (its actually between 50-60% here in MI atm, at -2f, the dew point would still be about -13f, or -25C, or obviously well below freezing. In this event, you would not be building dew, but rather frost, which is a very poor conductor.

Physics is good and all, but when the actual outcome of an experiment refutes your hypothesis, it means it's time to look for a better one.

Now of course, it's entirely possible that you might somehow have some unfortunate charge in some unfortunate capacitor which comes in contact with a bit of frost that doesn't evaporate immediately whilst running hair dryer or fan, but rather melts for a split second, shorts the cap out, smokes a vital part of the motherboard's power regulating circuitry, which in turn causes a short inside the system's PSU, which then catches on fire, and burns the house down.

It's also entirely possible that everyone reading this thread gets struck by a bolt of lightning this instant.

[s1rrah]

its like -2F outside right now. i want to start the benching outside, but don't want to loose any hardware in the attempt . i have watercooling with antifreeze in the lines already, just condensation or just the cold might kill something.


thoughts?

-2F is a bit different but i did some 20F benching and everything worked fine except the knobs on my sunbeam rheobus became very hard to turn.

i'd go for it in short spells ...

[epion2985]

Actually, you have engineering majors in both hands.

At first, I was trying to figure out exactly what you're trying to argue. I think we can both agree that no condensation will occur while the system is outdoors, barring any sort of precipitation.



Unless the system is somehow running below ambient.

--

So the issue is brining the system indoors. Note that I stated from the beginning that I understand that condensation will likely occur when bringing it from outdoors to indoors. There's little question about that. It just won't hurt anything while the system is off. From there, you can use a fan or a hair dryer to take off any that does form.

Chances of shorted caps killing something...theoretically possible but chances extremely low. Now even if we assume 70%+ humidity (its actually between 50-60% here in MI atm, at -2f, the dew point would still be about -13f, or -25C, or obviously well below freezing. In this event, you would not be building dew, but rather frost, which is a very poor conductor.

Physics is good and all, but when the actual outcome of an experiment refutes your hypothesis, it means it's time to look for a better one.

Now of course, it's entirely possible that you might somehow have some unfortunate charge in some unfortunate capacitor which comes in contact with a bit of frost that doesn't evaporate immediately whilst running hair dryer or fan, but rather melts for a split second, shorts the cap out, smokes a vital part of the motherboard's power regulating circuitry, which in turn causes a short inside the system's PSU, which then catches on fire, and burns the house down.

It's also entirely possible that everyone reading this thread gets struck by a bolt of lightning this instant.

Sorry I got a bit snappy, bad week, apologies.

You are wrong on the degree though, mine is not completely finished yet so you got that on me

Agreed, not much chance of condensation outside unless it will be there for a very long time, then it would be like wet grass in the morning.

I disagree on having the pc off making it safe, if there will be frost it does melt, and while the result may not be as dramatic as you describe it can be enough to kill expensive hardware. I am just trying to make a point that there is a risk the op is undertaking. Sure it is possible he will be fine but the opposite is also possible. I don't want him to possibly loose hardware because he didn't understand there is a chance that might happen.

As for experiment vs theory, honestly my experience is quite the opposite of yours. Lucky for me I didn't loose anything expensive.

Like I said, this is no different then taking a cold can of soda from a fridge in to your warm room. Condensation forms. I guess you can bring your pc in fast and try to blow dry it etc and hope for the best, and thats fine, but he may have expensive hardware he may not afford to replace so the risk is something to consider.

Anyway, I think we are picking at it too much, I think we can both agree this can swing either way, and as long as the op knows it thats all thats important.

Cheers

[flclisgreat]

well it doesn't matter anyway. the only sata cable i have broke, no benching for me at all.

new cpu today and i can't do anything with it

[epion2985]

sorry to hear that, hopefully you will be back on your overclocking feet soon

[flclisgreat]

found an old ide hdd to use, setting up xp now, getting ready to oc

[epion2985]

found an old ide hdd to use, setting up xp now, getting ready to oc

Be sure to post results and if you noticed any condensation bringing the pc back inside, and if so how much and weather you managed to dry it off without problems. Good luck

[{.bLanK} GoD]

They generally run a good 30C over ambient.

As for the hard drives mine may run at about 30C in my room, outside though at -20C I seriously doubt it will run at 30C.

Sorry.
I had too point that out.
Minor detail.

EDIT:
@flclisgreat - I don't think it's a bad idea. Just be aware of the risks and prepare yourself that it may go wrong.

Use an rcd too!

[epion2985]

It's -20C outside for him, I don't think even if it is pretty cool inside his house it will guarantee anything.

15C under room temperature isn't bad, it's not about being under room temperature, its about being under dew point. But it also depends on humidity not just temperature. The conditions inside your house are subject to many factors.

And for the last time you do NOT live where it is dry. I live int he same place and just the fact that you live on the god damn coast this close to the equator should tell you its not going to be very dry. Lets see what weather is currently.

yep.... 85% bone dry..............


Palo Alto, California
Local Time: 3:40 AM PST

Temperature: 42 °F / 6 °C
Humidity: 85%
Dew Point: 38 °F / 3 °C
Wind: Calm
Pressure: 30.30 in / 1026 hPa
Visibility: 10.0 miles / 16.1 kilometers
UV: 0 out of 16

http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/...st?query=94303

[serialk11r]

Dryer than many places I've been to lol. Anyways, I'm curious why this would be a bad idea for him but not for others who have tried it. Why can't you keep your pc off and throw a fan on it or something when bringing it inside?