Well, testing could not finish.

[gabe]

Err, it does appear I have buggered the base Rule #1. DO NOT hard mount the Apogee! Lesson learned I guess. Well, this at least makes me feel better that I have an answer as to WHY I could not get a good mount after the first 2. Oh well. Unless Swiftech wants to send me another base plate (along with the o-ring they are sending) I guess this Apogee is done. I have never had a block do this to me before, my mistake on the hard mount here. Perhaps this is EXACTLY what happened at CES?

CES: Not at all what happened! We believe we damaged the motherboard with a hardmount (OP thinks he tightened way too much and cracked a trace). Replacing the motherboard next day with exact same model resolved all stability issues.

Sorry I didn't send you the o-ring today, vendor was late in delivering. Parts were received 5 minutes ago... NP to send you another block. Note: if you want to verify whether base is now concave, simply place a straight edge across it, and inspect against bright light.

Mounting system of Apogee GT is same (same posts, same springs) as regular Apogee. Thousands of Apogee sold in 2006. never any pb. Hard mount is never advisable as too risky (ongoing debate about this with OP), unless you have a means of limiting the torque by placing a spacer of the correct size between hold-down plate and motherboard, or using an acorn nut (blind nut) with the correct length screw.

[flou]

So, you think nikhsub1 that the apogee gt is a better block than the Fusion?Can you make a flow test with the nozzle?How much is the drop pressure?

[gabe]

Update:

Parts received tonight. I mounted the "fat" o-ring for you already, and placed the "regular" in the box, with a note.

will send block tomorrow.

[sonofander]

How do the rest of us "pre-releasers" go about getting that extra o-ring?

[gabe]

How do the rest of us "pre-releasers" go about getting that extra o-ring?

email to help@swiftech.com with your address and copy of your receipt

again sorry about this inconvenience

[Fr3ak]

I still dont get what is causing trouble.
Due to hard mounting the block is now most likely concav.
That means the center of the block doesnt make good contact with the IHS.
But when looking at the temp reading in niks post, the reading right before it BSOD (cos of too much heat?) is 4C lower than the temps he got before that..
Shoulnt temps skyrock or increase slighlt over time with a concave base?

[nikhsub1]

I still dont get what is causing trouble.
Due to hard mounting the block is now most likely concav.
That means the center of the block doesnt make good contact with the IHS.
But when looking at the temp reading in niks post, the reading right before it BSOD (cos of too much heat?) is 4C lower than the temps he got before that..
Shoulnt temps skyrock or increase slighlt over time with a concave base?

No, not necessarily. I tried mounting the Apogee for the 3rd test 6 or 7 times, each time noting that temps just looked off, too high. Each time I ran TAT at load for just a few minutes it would BSOD. Temps never shot up. Keep in mind that the speed I am running (3.85Ghz) that any instability or too high temps will BSOD the machine. The last attempt is the log that is shown.

[WeStSiDePLaYa]

Mounting system of Apogee GT is same (same posts, same springs) as regular Apogee. Thousands of Apogee sold in 2006. never any pb.

since when is that how apogee mounts?

mine just has screws. no springs.

[Philly_Boy]

Err, it does appear I have buggered the base Rule #1. DO NOT hard mount the Apogee! Lesson learned I guess. Well, this at least makes me feel better that I have an answer as to WHY I could not get a good mount after the first 2. Oh well. Unless Swiftech wants to send me another base plate (along with the o-ring they are sending) I guess this Apogee is done. I have never had a block do this to me before, my mistake on the hard mount here. Perhaps this is EXACTLY what happened at CES?

Tuesday night at the Swiftech Challenge we hard mounted the Apogee GT to the point of bowing the mother board. We were greeted by 6-7 lock ups or BSOD's or spontaneous reboots. Before we ran the Apogee GT we mounted the Fuzion several times with the D-Tek hardware which includes longer stiff springs and inserts and it ran with no problem. We were curious that when we pulled the blocks off it was apparent that one corner of the CPU was not making the best contact with the block.

When we redid the the testing on Wednesday with a new mobo we were very careful to properly and precisely mount the blocks, ensuring an even mount with even pressure. We used a micrometer to insure each nut was turned down within 0.012" of each other. Both blocks ran with no problem at all. The Apogee GT mount with the larger diameter gasket (which bowed the otherwise lapped flat base) ran up to 8c better than the same block with the smaller diameter gasket with the flat base.

Also, we noticed that the mounts had nice even contact with the entire surface of the CPU. The TIM pattern was nice and square like the IHS on the CPU. It is difficult to say whether this resulted from the better mounting methodology or the fact that we carefully lapped the CPU we used for Wednesday evening.

In the end I agree that you need the springs for each block to and you must be very careful to mount the blocks evenly but without so much pressure that it warps the mobo.

[nikhsub1]

Well, even the intel stock HSF warps the mobo... a whole bunch! My mounts warp the mobo as well, always have.

[BillA]

"net clue factor"
truly this is a cycle, for noobs; round and round we go

[_G_]

Well, even the intel stock HSF warps the mobo... a whole bunch! My mounts warp the mobo as well, always have.

do you have a metal backing plate?
had the same problem with my A64 setup until I got a metal one.

[nikhsub1]

"net clue factor"
truly this is a cycle, for noobs; round and round we go

You love Cathar's coinage of that don't you? Do you direct this at me?

[nikhsub1]

do you have a metal backing plate?
had the same problem with my A64 setup until I got a metal one.

Let me be very clear here. I have NEVER EVER had a problem with mounting without springs. I get more consistent mounts that way. I have run many many blocks in my day and have never run into this issue.

[_G_]

I was refering to mobo warping(I was running a cheape evga board:p)
not youre mounting method.

[MaxxxRacer]

As I read through this guide I was going to suggest checking the Apogee for warping as I know the base is rather thin to improve performance/reduce costs.. but that that has already been suggest and determined to be the prob....

lol @ bill.

[[XC] DragonOrta]

nikhsub, do you happen to have a 6002 to add to this testing?

[WeStSiDePLaYa]

As I read through this guide I was going to suggest checking the Apogee for warping as I know the base is rather thin to improve performance/reduce costs.. but that that has already been suggest and determined to be the prob....

lol @ bill.

direct me to where it has been "Determined" to be the problem.

I havent seen any conclusive evidence to support that.

[Leeum]

Interesting results nikhsub1, thanks for sharing. Would it be possible to have something like a Danger Den TDX added to the comparison?

[IanY]

I'm tired of the snide remarks, insults and innuendo. I'm going to just speak my mind, as plainly as my simpleton self knows how.

If anyone deems themselves/himself as the true expert here, kindly step up to the plate and show some initiative. Otherwise, if you are going to kick back and sit in the back seat, then kindly shut your collective traps.

If you are so darn initiated, as opposed to the rest of us being n00bs, then take the leadership role and do the testing using the method you deem correct. Otherwise, provide due credit to those who have at least tried, rather than resting on your collective pompous oversized posteriors. These people have worked tirelessly to benefit the community. All you have contributed is criticism.

You know exactly who you are.

[IanY]

direct me to where it has been "Determined" to be the problem.

I havent seen any conclusive evidence to support that.

If that isn't the most blatant corroborative evidence of Apogee prejudice, then I don't know what is.

[WeStSiDePLaYa]

If that isn't the most blatant corroborative evidence of Apogee prejudice, then I don't know what is.

NOBODY has determined that any problems are related to the base of the Apogee. Show me otherwise, and I will shut up, if not, you do the honors.


And to add to that, your just throwing big words around you dont seem to understand. Why would you claim I was being prejudice against the Apogee? If anything, im SUPPORTING it for now, due to CES testing.

EDIT:

Referring to your first comment: And sorry, I cannot afford to spend hundreds of dollars on blocks. I guess the people who dont have access to the newest and pre release waterblocks have no input.

But hey, maybe I should try being like some other members, who's extent of input ends at "OMG, your testing is soo coolz." And then do not even question testing methodology, or think objectively about the results given. Instead they accept every little thing they hear from certain watercooling "gods".

Note the above is speaking generally.

[IanY]

NOBODY has determined that any problems are related to the base of the Apogee. Show me otherwise, and I will shut up, if not, you do the honors.

And to add to that, your just throwing big words around you dont seem to understand. Why would you claim I was being prejudice against the Apogee? If anything, im SUPPORTING it for now, due to CES testing.

Not you! How can you be prejudiced against the Apogee I wasn't talking about you! You are the *last* person on earth to be prejudiced against the Apogee.. as though I wouldn't know that

Incidently, the base of the Apogee warps? That's news to me. As far as I'm concerned, its the first time I've heard this. The Apogee design has worked well for quite a while, and better than the Storm Rev 2 on the Kentsfield, thank you very much. There. Feel better?

Note that I do my own testing and form my own conclusions. I don't rely on anyone's tests, regardless of how "coolz" anybody is supposed to be.

My first comment wasn't directed at you either lol Its a reference to some other supposed big guru here... rarely contributes.. only criticizes.. and I am tired of his snide remarks and unnecessary personal insults. Look further up this thread.

Recognize who wears the same uniform before firing your weapon

[clokker]

And to add to that, your just throwing big words around you dont seem to understand. Why would you claim I was being prejudice against the Apogee? If anything, im SUPPORTING it for now, due to CES testing.

Just to be pedantic....
"Prejudice" is not implicitly for or against an object.
It actually denotes assuming an attitude/belief without experience or fact.

[nikhsub1]

Interesting results nikhsub1, thanks for sharing. Would it be possible to have something like a Danger Den TDX added to the comparison?

Nope sorry. I don't have a 6002 either, wish I did but tis kind of a moot point as the block no longer is being made. I guess we could say the same thing about the Storm...

I received the new Apogee with the bigger o-ring installed. Of course, first thing I did was take it apart (sorry Gabe). When the base of the apogee is unbolted from the top (with the fatter oring) the top sits ~1/8" perhaps a tad less off the base. There is a very noticeable gap. When the corners are torqued down, you clearly see the bow - each corner is touching the top (delrin) but on each side in the middle you see a slight gap between base and top. I placed the bowed apogee on my glass table and it only ever so slightly rocks side to side... you can spin it like a top if you wanted to

I have to finish an important work project that I hope to have done tomorrow night, perhaps Saturday. I hope to get results for the G4 and the bowed Apogee before I leave to Chicago on Wed the 24th...

If time permits I have a very interesting idea with the Storm that I want to try. I also have even more ideas about the Fuzion and how to maybe make that perform even better - clokker is making a nozzle me thinks.

To address my first apogee which the base crowned, what is there not to understand? Do you NOT see the 3rd apogee test? Is it not horrid? Was it not stated that I had to remount 6 or 7 times just to be able to attemp the 3rd test? BillA made mention that the base is most likely now CONVEX due to the tremendous mounting pressure I subjected the block to. One thing I know for sure, it no longer performs like it did when I first got it. I wouldnt run around saying this is or will be a problem, I dont think anyone uses my mounting technique.