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Thread: Well, testing could not finish.

  1. 01-15-2007, 03:19 PM #1
    nikhsub1
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    Well, testing could not finish.

    Well, I don't know what to say but I could not get the Apogee GT to complete it's last test. Test 1 and 2 went well, both performed on consecutive days with very similar ambient temps (~20C). Well, test 3 which I started yesterday never finished. I got 3 BSOD's yesterday on 3 different mounts. Today, I remounted 4 times because each mount looked bad judging by initial load temps, they were just too high. On the 5th mount I decided to try to run the test after the hour burn in period with TAT. Well, with 8 minutes before completion BSOD. IDK what the heck is going on but it seems Im having the same issue that they had at CES - although my hardware is fine! Being utterly frustrated, I removed the GT and put the G5 back in to see what was going on. After mounting the G5 I immediately started TAT, air in system and all. I don't know what I am going to do with my results because they are incomplete. I think I need to take a day break and think. Any suggestions welcomed. FWIW, here is the end of the GT TAT log followed by the G5 mount. I don't know if the GT's base is just borked or what. I hard mount all of my blocks with a tremendous amount of torque, perhaps the base is deflecting too much with this much pressure. *Sigh* - now I know why I never wanted to test

    Code:
    13:31:15: Processor 0 : DIGITAL TMP[ 69°C ]
13:31:15: Processor 1 : DIGITAL TMP[ 67°C ]
13:31:17: Processor 0 : DIGITAL TMP[ 68°C ]
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13:31:45: Processor 0 : DIGITAL TMP[ 70°C ]
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13:31:48: Processor 0 : DIGITAL TMP[ 68°C ]
13:31:48: Processor 1 : DIGITAL TMP[ 66&#176;C ]<--- Apogee GT right before BSOD
Writing to D:\Program Files\Intel Corporation\Thermal Analysis Tool\Results.txt
Intel&#174; Thermal Analysis Tool: v 2.05.2006.0420
Processor: Pentium&#174; M Processor (6FXh)
Microsoft Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 
OS version: 5.1.2600 (Build 2600)
On Demand Clock Modulation [Processor 0] : Chipset: 0-4  Processor: 0-1
On Demand Clock Modulation [Processor 1] : Chipset: 0-4  Processor: 0-1
Driver Version: v1.0
Power Source: AC
Workload library returns Context: 0x1
Polling Period: 2000 mSec.
On Demand Clock Modulation [Processor 0] : Chipset: 0-4  Processor: 0-1
On Demand Clock Modulation [Processor 1] : Chipset: 0-4  Processor: 0-1
14:39:01:  ** Monitor Started **
14:39:01:  No temperature reading
14:39:02: Processor 0 : DIGITAL TMP[ 45&#176;C ]
14:39:02: Processor 1 : DIGITAL TMP[ 47&#176;C ]
14:39:06: Processor 0 : DIGITAL TMP[ 46&#176;C ]
14:39:08: Processor 0 : DIGITAL TMP[ 45&#176;C ]
14:39:12:  Workload power level: 100%
14:39:18:  ** Workload Started (Processor 0) **
14:39:14: Processor 0 : DIGITAL TMP[ 46&#176;C ]
14:39:14: Processor 1 : DIGITAL TMP[ 48&#176;C ]
14:39:20: Processor 0 : DIGITAL TMP[ 57&#176;C ]
14:39:20: Processor 1 : DIGITAL TMP[ 52&#176;C ]
14:39:22: Processor 1 : DIGITAL TMP[ 51&#176;C ]
14:39:22:  Workload power level: 100%
14:39:22:  ** Workload Started (Processor 1) **  <-----G5 Right at Boot
14:39:24: Processor 0 : DIGITAL TMP[ 59&#176;C ]
14:39:24: Processor 1 : DIGITAL TMP[ 58&#176;C ]
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    Last edited by nikhsub1; 01-15-2007 at 03:21 PM.

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  2. 01-15-2007, 03:22 PM #2
    MaxxxRacer
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    Well you said that you might think that your putting too much mounting pressure.. so with that in mind, try mounting the GT with the stock equipment.
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  3. 01-15-2007, 03:26 PM #3
    nikhsub1
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    Yeah, I may just try that Maxxx... I just can't figure why test 1 and 2 went perfectly fine, then all of a sudden I can't get a good mount out of 6 or 7 attempts. That is what I am not understanding, but in light of your advice (which I'm known to sometimes overlook the obvious) I may just do what you suggest.

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  4. 01-15-2007, 03:27 PM #4
    clokker
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    Hmmm.
    IIRC, you were testing several blocks, weren't you?
    All of them finished save the GT?
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  5. 01-15-2007, 03:32 PM #5
    nikhsub1
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    Quote Originally Posted by clokker
    Hmmm.
    IIRC, you were testing several blocks, weren't you?
    All of them finished save the GT?
    Yes. So far I have tested the G5 and the Fuzion. I ran a total of 6 tests on the fuzion, one in stock form and one with a custom nozzle I fabbed. So the fuzion had 6 mounts and the G5 had 3. The GT finished the first 2 with no issue but the 3rd is 8 minutes shy of the hour. Not only that but the deltaT of test 3 is much higher (+2C) than the other 2. As far as I am concerned, all the GT data needs to be scrapped and I need to start again with it.

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  6. 01-15-2007, 03:55 PM #6
    flou
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    Nikhsub1, it is not your problem if these guys in swiftech can't make a proper mounting mechanism for their block.The results are what you have.And thank you so much for the time you spent.
    You guys are expert and even you are not able to make the right mounting, the one that the block needs. The majority of people are not going to think so much about the mounting.They just open the package,make up the circuit, put some paste and then right on the cpu.So, even you ,a guy that knows so much about watercooling, why do you have to see what is going on after 5 mountings and the block doesn't have the proper results? Even the other 2 reviews, from tyrou and vr-zone, show that other older blocks might perform better.Even those guys did the standard mounting,no need to see what is going on. That is why i think that Fusion is the clear winner among the 2 blocks.
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  7. 01-15-2007, 03:55 PM #7
    clokker
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikhsub1
    As far as I am concerned, all the GT data needs to be scrapped and I need to start again with it.
    I would disagree.
    "Failure to complete test" is data...maybe not what you (or Gabe) were hoping for, but data nonetheless.
    Of interest would be the "why" of such a failure.
    If you suspect incorrect mounting technique (and by following Maxxx's advice you are basically ceding the point), how come the G5 and the Fuzion survived?
    If you redo the GT tests using Swiftech's hardware aren't you obliged to redo the Fuzion as well, using D-tek's?

    If the GT is more sensitive to mounting pressure ( sensitive to the point of failure actually) that is valuable information above and beyond any temp data acquired.

    I'd like to see the results you've already gathered, albeit presented with the caveat that the GT didn't complete the full round and may be retested at a later date.
    The data pool is rather shallow at this point and it'd be a shame not to add whatever results you've got.
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  8. 01-15-2007, 04:05 PM #8
    BillA
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    ck the bp, did you crown it ? (reverse curvature, concave)
    hard mounting can bugger a 'flexable' bp, as the Apogee is known to be

    I would add that I always use springs
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  9. 01-15-2007, 04:17 PM #9
    WeStSiDePLaYa
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    Quote Originally Posted by flou
    Nikhsub1, it is not your problem if these guys in swiftech can't make a proper mounting mechanism for their block.The results are what you have.And thank you so much for the time you spent.
    You guys are expert and even you are not able to make the right mounting, the one that the block needs. The majority of people are not going to think so much about the mounting.They just open the package,make up the circuit, put some paste and then right on the cpu.So, even you ,a guy that knows so much about watercooling, why do you have to see what is going on after 5 mountings and the block doesn't have the proper results? Even the other 2 reviews, from tyrou and vr-zone, show that other older blocks might perform better.Even those guys did the standard mounting,no need to see what is going on. That is why i think that Fusion is the clear winner among the 2 blocks.

    im pretty sure he doesnt use the stock mounting hardware. so there goes that theory.

    Only thing that makes sense is that the not stock mounting hardware is putting too much pressure on the core. Too much pressure is a bad thing, as it starts to warp the base of the block, and mess around with the contact.
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  10. 01-15-2007, 04:19 PM #10
    nikhsub1
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    Clokker you raise some good points. I have ALWAYS hard mounted my blocks with no springs and with a lot of pressure. Even since my Athlon XP days. I have always found this to give the best and most consistent mounts. The GT was mounted for the 3rd test (all 6 or 7 times) in the same manner I mounted it for test 1 and 2 and all blocks for that matter. I could understand if ambient was much higher and it BSOD'd but such is not the case. I know people are interested in data so I will post it here now - just keep in mind that I will be retesting the GT with this 'super o-ring' once it arrives. I will also test the Swiftech G4 as well. Of interest is the Fuzion with my nozzle. As you can bet, D-Tek will have a nozzle shortly

    FuZion Mount 1
    --------------
    Temp Avg. 64.037
    Ambient Avg 20.556
    Avg DeltaT 43.481

    FuZion Mount 2
    --------------
    Temp Avg. 64.811
    Ambient Avg 21.875
    Avg DeltaT 42.936

    FuZion Mount 3
    --------------
    Avg Temp 64.981
    Avg Ambient 22.222
    Avg DeltaT 42.759

    FuZion w/Nozzle Mount 1
    --------------
    Temp Avg. 60.680
    Ambient Avg 20.509
    Avg DeltaT 40.171

    FuZion w/Nozzle Mount 2
    --------------
    Temp Avg. 60.844
    Ambient Avg 20.463
    Avg DeltaT 40.381

    FuZion w/Nozzle Mount 3
    --------------
    Temp Avg. 60.921
    Ambient Avg 20.669
    Avg DeltaT 40.252

    G5 Mount 1
    --------------
    Avg Core Temp 63.703
    Avg Ambient 23.472
    Avg DeltaT 40.231

    G5 Mount 2
    --------------
    Avg Core Temp 59.292
    Avg Ambient 21.000
    Avg DeltaT 38.292

    G5 Mount 3
    --------------
    Avg Core Temp 58.533
    Avg Ambient 19.814
    Avg DeltaT 38.719

    Apogee GT Mount 1
    --------------
    Avg Core Temp 65.159
    Avg Ambient 20.741
    Avg DeltaT 44.418

    Apogee GT Mount 2
    --------------
    Avg Core Temp 62.934
    Avg Ambient 20.555
    Avg DeltaT 42.379

    Apogee GT Mount 3*
    --------------
    Avg Core Temp 67.476
    Avg Ambient 20.648
    Avg DeltaT 46.828

    *= Test did not complete - 52 minutes completed out of 60. BSOD prevented completion.

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  11. 01-15-2007, 04:27 PM #11
    nikhsub1
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillA
    ck the bp, did you crown it ? (reverse curvature, concave)
    hard mounting can bugger a 'flexable' bp, as the Apogee is known to be

    I would add that I always use springs
    Err, it does appear I have buggered the base Rule #1. DO NOT hard mount the Apogee! Lesson learned I guess. Well, this at least makes me feel better that I have an answer as to WHY I could not get a good mount after the first 2. Oh well. Unless Swiftech wants to send me another base plate (along with the o-ring they are sending) I guess this Apogee is done. I have never had a block do this to me before, my mistake on the hard mount here. Perhaps this is EXACTLY what happened at CES?

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  12. 01-15-2007, 04:28 PM #12
    serialk11r
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    Whats strange about the BSOD? I had my e6400 at 2.66GHz on my sh*tty motherboard fine for a month, then it bsoded. I would expect a BSOD, given enough time, for any overclock.
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  13. 01-15-2007, 04:33 PM #13
    nikhsub1
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    Quote Originally Posted by serialk11r
    Whats strange about the BSOD? I had my e6400 at 2.66GHz on my sh*tty motherboard fine for a month, then it bsoded. I would expect a BSOD, given enough time, for any overclock.
    What is strange is the fact that 3.85Ghz @ 1.56V is my 24/7 365 setting! I run FAH 24/7/365 so my machine is ALWAYS on (unless im swapping WB's) and always at load. I had NO BSOD's with the G5 or the Fuzion. I believe I have found the source of the issue ^_^

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  14. 01-15-2007, 04:33 PM #14
    clokker
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikhsub1
    As you can bet, D-Tek will have a nozzle shortly
    My Fuzion arrives Wednesday and I have a lathe and am not afraid to use it.

    I saw your nozzle and read Stew's comments regarding a theoretically good nozzle design.
    In a perfect world would you incorporate the tapered plug into the barb itself or is there room for it to extend below, into the base of the block?
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  15. 01-15-2007, 04:34 PM #15
    serialk11r
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikhsub1
    What is strange is the fact that 3.85Ghz @ 1.56V is my 24/7 365 setting! I run FAH 24/7/365 so my machine is ALWAYS on (unless im swapping WB's) and always at load. I had NO BSOD's with the G5 or the Fuzion. I believe I have found the source of the issue ^_^
    Ah... IC... I think swiftech is thoroughly screwed.
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  16. 01-15-2007, 04:38 PM #16
    nikhsub1
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    Quote Originally Posted by clokker
    My Fuzion arrives Wednesday and I have a lathe and am not afraid to use it.

    I saw your nozzle and read Stew's comments regarding a theoretically good nozzle design.
    In a perfect world would you incorporate the tapered plug into the barb itself or is there room for it to extend below, into the base of the block?
    No not into the barb - the nozzles will install under the barb, there is plenty of room (~3/4") as the barb will help keep the nozzle in place. Amazing the difference from no nozzle to my crappy version of a nozzle isnt it?

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  17. 01-15-2007, 04:40 PM #17
    clokker
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    Quote Originally Posted by serialk11r
    Ah... IC... I think swiftech is thoroughly screwed.
    Hardly.
    This would probably not have happened had nik used the supplied hardware.
    The GT has a thinner baseplate and must be treated a bit more carefully is all.
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  18. 01-15-2007, 04:42 PM #18
    nikhsub1
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    Quote Originally Posted by serialk11r
    Ah... IC... I think swiftech is thoroughly screwed.
    I wouldn't go that far. Did you see test 2 of the Apogee? Not too shabby at all. I used the block out of spec (heck, i use all blocks out of spec) and killed it. I call things as I see them, I have no debt to anyone. I just like to see what is what for myself and I know I can do a reasonable good job of attaining results with what I've got. With that said, this is no fault of the Apogee it is my fault and the lesson here is that it can't be manhandled like the other blocks, the base is too flexible.

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  19. 01-15-2007, 04:44 PM #19
    clokker
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikhsub1
    No not into the barb - the nozzles will install under the barb, there is plenty of room (~3/4") as the barb will help keep the nozzle in place. Amazing the difference from no nozzle to my crappy version of a nozzle isnt it?
    Yes, it is.
    Any wagers as to how much better (if any) a tapered nozzle will be?
    I'm guessing, not all that much.

    If you'd like one let me know.
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  20. 01-15-2007, 04:47 PM #20
    nikhsub1
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    Quote Originally Posted by clokker
    Yes, it is.
    Any wagers as to how much better (if any) a tapered nozzle will be?
    I'm guessing, not all that much.

    If you'd like one let me know.
    Well my bet is that a proper nozzle (~6.5mm at smallest point) will not yield temps as good as my 4mm nozzle but, overall flow rates won't suffer like they do with my nozzle (which i have since killed tying to improve it ).

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  21. 01-15-2007, 04:47 PM #21
    virtualrain
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikhsub1
    Err, it does appear I have buggered the base Rule #1. DO NOT hard mount the Apogee! Lesson learned I guess. Well, this at least makes me feel better that I have an answer as to WHY I could not get a good mount after the first 2. Oh well. Unless Swiftech wants to send me another base plate (along with the o-ring they are sending) I guess this Apogee is done. I have never had a block do this to me before, my mistake on the hard mount here. Perhaps this is EXACTLY what happened at CES?
    Nik... sorry to hear that... what exactly happened to the base?
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  22. 01-15-2007, 05:57 PM #22
    SiGfever
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    @nik,

    My Fuzion is due in tomorrow and now I need a nozzle before I install it. Any word from D-Tek about when they will have some available?
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  23. 01-15-2007, 06:10 PM #23
    ziddey
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    Damn. So you're thinking only hard mounting can have this adverse affect? I'm curious since with my regular apogee, I use the supplied hardware (springs et al) and tighten down until the whole bolt starts spinning (which is after I apply more force than it takes to become tight). I've tried stopping when it became hard as well.
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  24. 01-15-2007, 06:19 PM #24
    nikhsub1
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziddey
    Damn. So you're thinking only hard mounting can have this adverse affect? I'm curious since with my regular apogee, I use the supplied hardware (springs et al) and tighten down until the whole bolt starts spinning (which is after I apply more force than it takes to become tight). I've tried stopping when it became hard as well.
    I guess. But let me explain the way i mount; no springs at all, the nuts to the mount plate and I torque them a lot, as in as tight as I can turn them before my fingers bleed.

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    GTZ --> MCW-NBMAX --> EK FC --> PA 120.3 --> PA 160.1 --> 2x DDC Ultras in Series --> Custom Clear Res
    "Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."
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  25. 01-15-2007, 06:31 PM #25
    _G_
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    you could try propping up the edges of the baseplate on wood and tape the concave out of it with a wood dowel and hammer
    start off light and check after each smack looks like swiftech used real soft copper
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