Feser's New Lineup

[Church]

zalbard: Oh, it will. Very few though. big volumes sold of 95% from top performance imho might result in more profits for vendor then very small volumes sold of niche "the top" rad.
If you notice - when newbies here on forum ask "what rad" almost always it's swiftech's MCR, not other existing "top" rads. And if this won't perform better then any other out there, it will loose even that niche, i highly doubt modularity will be enough to convince buyers except ones aiming only for bling in their builds.
Second example - do you think that aquacomputer sold many silver Kryo waterblocks? Even though it is The Best cooling wise (copper one already was, so this most probably will slightly win over that .. at 4 times the price).

[FrozenCPU]

We have spoken to TFC today and we have worked out our misunderstanding about "admiral gate". We were indeed supposed to go home with the engineering sample. Dazmode will be returning the sample to FrozenCPU.

As far as production stock, FrozenCPU will be receiving Admirals very soon and they will be available at FrozenCPU exclusively in the USA. Our reseller partners will also have the opportunity to sell these as well.

As annoying as this is to have waited this long, we have been promised real product very soon. I am afraid to give a date at this point but we have been assured it is imminent.

[Church]

FrozenCPU: Nah, don't mind us, we just love black humor, that's all. It looks like your side so far suffered most from miscellaneous issues related to these rads and time for return on investment probably won't be too soon.
BTW, out of curiosity, is this your first investment into developing some new LC products? Do you plan in future doing something similar? (Though it's hard to imagine what revolutionary can be invented in this field, for most vendors it seemingly is all about fine tuning evolution now)

[Aaronharmon]

Bad investment, nuff said.

Aaron

I think there is something to be said here..........

I am not trying to start "admiral gate", but this radiator left the Golden Nugget with Skinnee and I to take home to test and leak pics etc.

The next day TFC came to my hotel room and asked me if they can borrow it for a video.

Now MY engineering sample is in Canada?

What the community here does not know is that TFC did not put the initial investment capital up to get to this point.

FrozenCPU put the money up to see this radiator develop. A lot of money, up front, 8 months ago.

So, I ask the community at this point......... where are these radiators and why did my engineering sample go to Canada and not home with Skinnee or myself?

[meanmoe]

Hey FrozenCPU,
can I have 55k USD, I'll make sure you leave with whatever I develop.

[skinnee]

I don't have a picture for "Peace!"

[SpuTnicK]

here you go!

[rheydt]

I am quite glad to notice that frozencpu will get the sample at last and skinnee can start a performance test, the whole community is waiting now!

[thegcpu]

If there just coming out with a design sample I take it that it’s a while before there is a shipping product.

[Metroid]

I'm expecting the new Feser lineup to turn into the Duke Nukem Forever of liquid cooling...

2020: "Any time now..."

lol, looks like Feser is following duke's release date

I wonder if this is just another prank

[Alexandr0s]

The fact that I may have been partially right makes this all the sadder

[Church]

Hmm, i just got one stupid idea, that imho can be easier checked/implemented in these new admiral rads due their modular nature.
- I recall reading that two 2x120 rads are little bit better then one quad. IIRC it was waterlogged, that guessed it maybe due turbulent flow getting more laminar in long rads lessening heat transfer. - How about making insert-with-inlets that could be put in middle between two sections on each side instead of common one at one end of rad? Can it enhance rad performance vs inlets on one end of long rad? Though then again, if it's parallelised between rad "halfs", flow would also be halved probably canceling any improvements :/, so probably serial is way to go (and serial would allow also non-even "half" configurations, like 1:2 for triple, or 2:3 for quintuple rads, without worry about uneven parallelisation/flow going least resistance route)? About the only flaw i see - almost no currently sold quad rad grills would be usuable with such rad configuration .. but well, maybe two 2x140 radgrills can be used? Also in few cases imho inlets in middle might simplify tubing routing.
I'm guessing it being harder to implement in common rads, or at least such rad imho will cost more to manufacture then classic configuration one, while almost no extra difficulty or cost to implement in admiral modular rads .. just designing/making insertable in middle inlet module instead of such at the end of rad, and two non-inlet ends like one used/designed already in current ones.
IF feser is aiming for absolute top performance, then every bit of extra performance might help. Who knows, maybe my hunch is right and this idea of enhancing rad performance might also work in real life?

FrozenCPU: how do you think, is this idea worth checking out at least in some prototype-middle-insert? If so, maybe you can pass it to TFC engineers? I won't claim any authorship/copyrights for idea if it actually will work and will get implemented, of course if TFC won't sue in future some other vendors trying to implement it in their rads

[jmm5351]

"In Soviet Russia -car drives you!"

hahahahaha family guy

[jmm5351]

We have spoken to TFC today and we have worked out our misunderstanding about "admiral gate". We were indeed supposed to go home with the engineering sample. Dazmode will be returning the sample to FrozenCPU.

As far as production stock, FrozenCPU will be receiving Admirals very soon and they will be available at FrozenCPU exclusively in the USA. Our reseller partners will also have the opportunity to sell these as well.

As annoying as this is to have waited this long, we have been promised real product very soon. I am afraid to give a date at this point but we have been assured it is imminent.

Do you think the Admiral Monsta Series will be for sale on FrozenCPU before February ends, or sometime afterwards ?

[Mudgey]

Hi Churchy, that will not work. The feser boys mentioned that a downfall of the existing rads is that the water flows down the path of least resistance, therefore the whole rad isn;t used as effectively as one would hope for. The new feser rad only has one way for the water to go and so the same water will go around the whole rad, at a greater flow and a greater pressure loss. Perhaps were at a stage where our powerful pumps can handle this. If you introduce a common chamber in the middle then it would defy the point of the rad and the water will then flow down the path of least resistance and I imagine it would perform worse than our current rads (Assuming their hype is right in the first place and the admiral rad is going to be breaking new ground).

I run twin rads, and the kit in my sig on a D5 on setting 2.

[pluck]

Hmm, i just got one stupid idea, that imho can be easier checked/implemented in these new admiral rads due their modular nature.
- I recall reading that two 2x120 rads are little bit better then one quad. IIRC it was waterlogged, that guessed it maybe due turbulent flow getting more laminar in long rads lessening heat transfer. - How about making insert-with-inlets that could be put in middle between two sections on each side instead of common one at one end of rad? Can it enhance rad performance vs inlets on one end of long rad? Though then again, if it's parallelised between rad "halfs", flow would also be halved probably canceling any improvements :/, so probably serial is way to go (and serial would allow also non-even "half" configurations, like 1:2 for triple, or 2:3 for quintuple rads, without worry about uneven parallelisation/flow going least resistance route)? About the only flaw i see - almost no currently sold quad rad grills would be usuable with such rad configuration .. but well, maybe two 2x140 radgrills can be used? Also in few cases imho inlets in middle might simplify tubing routing.
I'm guessing it being harder to implement in common rads, or at least such rad imho will cost more to manufacture then classic configuration one, while almost no extra difficulty or cost to implement in admiral modular rads .. just designing/making insertable in middle inlet module instead of such at the end of rad, and two non-inlet ends like one used/designed already in current ones.
IF feser is aiming for absolute top performance, then every bit of extra performance might help. Who knows, maybe my hunch is right and this idea of enhancing rad performance might also work in real life?

FrozenCPU: how do you think, is this idea worth checking out at least in some prototype-middle-insert? If so, maybe you can pass it to TFC engineers? I won't claim any authorship/copyrights for idea if it actually will work and will get implemented, of course if TFC won't sue in future some other vendors trying to implement it in their rads

If you're referring to the data on the swiftech website that appears to show the 120mm radiators dissipating more heat for the same surface area than a 360mm radiator, then it's worth bearing in mind that the comparison was made across completely separate graphs, and it's pretty damn likely that they were just using different speed fans (though I can't find the testing methodology on the swiftech website so I can't say for sure). IMO a difference in testing procedure is way more likely than some magical 50% gain in performance from 'turbulence' (especially as on the MCR320 page it shows it performing exactly 50% better than a 220, and it's fairly safe to assume they were carried out on the same tested in that case).

Also with regards to inducing 'turbulence' in a radiator to make it perform better, well the idea is flawed in a few ways. First of all this will create a decrease in the flow rate of the water through the radiator, which would actually decrease the rate of heat transfer to the air (this is because as the water spends longer in the radiator it's temp gets closer to the air and the rate of heat transfer decreases exponentially).

The main killer for the idea that introducing turbulence into a radiator being good is simply the fact that by doing so you would only be increasing the rate of heat transfer from the water to the radiator, not from the radiator to the air. This is important because air is the least thermally conductive out of the three, therefore the overall rate at which heat can be transferred is going to be limited by the ability of the radiator to dump heat into the air, not the ability of the water to dump heat into the radiator.

Also one last thing, I've noticed that generally when someone comes upon test data that they don't understand everyone always seems to come to the conclusion that 'turbulence' is the magical cause of the results, when in reality there is pretty much always a much more logical reason behind it.

[Church]

pluck: Hmm, while indeed rad performance was influenced mostly by airflow (and from heat transfer from fins to air), part of it's efficiency depended from coolant flow too, so efficiency of heat transfer from coolant to watertubes/fins imho while less important but nevertheless also plays some role - and if inducing extra turbulence at expense of more flow resistance worked in current top waterblocks (compared to old ones with simple internal design) to enhance heat transfer from block to coolant, i don't see why that cannot work in rads as well for heat transfer from coolant to watertubes/fins, so internally rifled structure of watertubes in these rads makes some sense for me. Of course, until there will be rads with completely same fin structure and other variables, so that only thing that differs is structured or sleek surface of watertubes, one cannot tell for sure if better performance will be with higher flow because of less pressure drop, or because of better heat transfer because of more surface area and more turbulence in rifled watertubes, even if flow speed will drop because of more flow resistance. Without other variables not being same test will never be apples to apples :/

[Holst]

pluck: Hmm, while indeed rad performance was influenced mostly by airflow (and from heat transfer from fins to air), part of it's efficiency depended from coolant flow too, so efficiency of heat transfer from coolant to watertubes/fins imho while less important but nevertheless also plays some role - and if inducing extra turbulence at expense of more flow resistance worked in current top waterblocks to enhance heat transfer from block to coolant, i don't see why that cannot work in rads as well for heat transfer from coolant to watertubes/fins, so internally rifled structure of watertubes in these rads makes some sense for me.

Its all about balancing different components.

The gains in a "normal" watercooling system with low wattage and slow fans will be pretty minimal by increasing turbulence.
The drop in flow through the rest of the system may offset any gains made in slightly lower water temps.

However in a system with a smaller rad, or higher wattage. Optimizing the radiator may be more worthwhile. But this isnt consistent with a typical watercooling system (where we use way too much rad and very poor airflow)

As I see it the real place to gain performance is too make the air-rad transfer more efficient, or allow an equally good transfer with less noise.

If a manufacturer could come up with a rad+fan combo that gave acceptable performance with less noise than the competition then I can see it being a great seller. The problem being that achieving this isnt easy.. otherwise I would be making and selling them myself

Churchy's idea below is pretty much the same as I described earlier in the thread, and I still think this is "better" than the fesser's design. However I will be happy to be proven wrong by skinnee's testing

[pluck]

pluck: Hmm, while indeed rad performance was influenced mostly by airflow (and from heat transfer from fins to air), part of it's efficiency depended from coolant flow too

Indeed, as I stated in my original post due to the way that the rate of heat transfer between two materials decreases exponentially as the temperature difference gets smaller. The implications of this are that the greater the time period the water is in the radiator for (i.e. the lower the flow rate through the radiator) the lower the average temp delta is between the air and the water, and thus the slower the rate of heat transfer.

It is also for this reason that I think any (very small) benefits of creating turbulence in a radiator will be outweighed by the performance decrease caused by reduced flow rates (by creating turbulence you also increase the pressure drop which in turn decreases flow rates, which due to the effect I described above will decrease the rate of thermal transfer).

and if inducing extra turbulence at expense of more flow resistance worked in current top waterblocks (compared to old ones with simple internal design) to enhance heat transfer from block to coolant, I don't see why that cannot work in rads as well for heat transfer from coolant to watertubes/fins

In water blocks using turbulence gives a reasonable increase in performance since the rate of heat transfer from copper block -> water IS the limiting factor, unlike a radiator where rad -> air is. This is also why using super thermally conductive TIMs nets you very little performance increase, because the rate of heat transfer from IHS -> block isn't the limiting factor.

[jmm5351]

Do you think the Admiral Monsta Series will be for sale on FrozenCPU before February ends, or sometime afterwards ?

The only reason why I ask is because I want to buy a new radiator and I was willing to wait a period of time for the Admiral Monsta Series, but I am only going to wait another few days for a reply back from FrozenCPU. If no reply big deal all radiators perform similarily close anyways, especially the big name radiators that everyone are familiar with. But since I haven't got an answer back I am going to safely assume that they aren't going to be for sale on FrozenCPU till after February, probably much after February. I don't understand what takes people so long to get products out for sale. I know the whole process because I am an engineer, and these companies tend to slack a lot when it comes to pushing out a new technology or product. The only company off the top of my head that is not what I just said is Intel. They churn out technology like they stole it from aliens.

Company's have been slacking though lately and need to keep up. That's why the American Economy is going to hell. I hate to say it but it is true. Things were different back in the good ole days.

The Hooverdam only took 4 years to complete for crying out loud. Feser can't even make a new radiator in that amount of time lol

[Waterlogged]

The only reason why I ask is because I want to buy a new radiator and I was willing to wait a period of time for the Admiral Monsta Series, but I am only going to wait another few days for a reply back from FrozenCPU. If no reply big deal all radiators perform similarily close anyways, especially the big name radiators that everyone are familiar with. But since I haven't got an answer back I am going to safely assume that they aren't going to be for sale on FrozenCPU till after February, probably much after February. I don't understand what takes people so long to get products out for sale. I know the whole process because I am an engineer, and these companies tend to slack a lot when it comes to pushing out a new technology or product. The only company off the top of my head that is not what I just said is Intel. They churn out technology like they stole it from aliens.

Company's have been slacking though lately and need to keep up. That's why the American Economy is going to hell. I hate to say it but it is true. Things were different back in the good ole days.

The Hooverdam only took 4 years to complete for crying out loud. Feser can't even make a new radiator in that amount of time lol

Seeing they only had a engineering sample @ CES, I think it's fairly safe to say you won't see these for a while yet.

[matari]

How long are they going to drag this drama out? If you want to hype a product, then go ahead. But if drag it out over months and months people are not gonna give a crap anymore.

[SpuTnicK]

Seeing they only had a engineering sample @ CES, I think it's fairly safe to say you won't see these for a while yet.

I can only add, that the problem is not in the production it self, but the relationship between the client (TFC) and the actual manufacturer. This was ruined by the first one. So, I guess, we won't see these "awesome" rads at all, unless the client finds friends in Asia

[Waterlogged]

I can only add, that the problem is not in the production it self, but the relationship between the client (TFC) and the actual manufacturer. This was ruined by the first one. So, I guess, we won't see these "awesome" rads at all, unless the client finds friends in Asia

...but in Dazmode's vid, they said "completely made in Gerhmany".

[SpuTnicK]

haha, they can say whatever they want, and you, WL, not a child to believe these stories. It is all marketing hypes, if you ask me