Real Temp - New temp program for Intel Core processors

[WoZZeR999]

I think changing the values immediately in the settings window and leaving a save/ok button only would be better. Apply seems like an extra un-needed step to see if you want to keep the settings.

[RejZoR]

"Ok" to apply the setting and close the window. "Apply" to apply the settings and leave window open. Thats how all WIndows programs do it. I think there is no need to go exotic and confuse users.

[rge]

i dont trust realtemp to be honest, considering its reporting completly different tests to everything else

So apparently you trust Everest....

Pic below is a quote from Fiery, developer of Everest, on lavalys forum describing how he feels about the accuracy of measuring core temperature with his program and others.

So you trust a program's guess at accuracy of core temp more than the author? Fiery was simply being honest, as intel does not document tjmax for desktops, thus Everest and coretemp guess at tjmax by using 45nm mobile cpus tjmax's of 105, hoping it is close, even though intel has said "no" to doing so.

Realtemp is the only program that has performed measurements, using intel docs to do so as accurately as possible, to make an accurate estimate of tjmax, and thus core temperature.

We all welcome intelligent arguments either for or against any program or temperature, as that leads to fruitful discussion, but blindly following others, who admit to being blind themselves, makes no sense.

[Puttz]

Uncle, Keep up the great work with RealTemp. Sorry to hear the same old arguments tho. Maybe the thread needs to start at page 1 again.......NOT!
I'm playing around with my new setup & love the temps I'm getting at 5.5 (11x500), but before I play with the FSB anymore, I was wondering if you could you please advise what the best TjMax is for a QX9770 (Batch #L803B328)?
I have everything adjusted to the preset of 95 & am just curious if that is correct.
Thanks.
P.S. - The start minimized bug is fixed.

[CBird28]

sorry i dont mean to start any arguments, i have absolutely no idea how these things work

[unclewebb]

I was wondering if you could please advise what the best TjMax is for a QX9770 (Batch #L803B328)?

The default one that RealTemp uses is best. For your Quad that is TjMax=95C. If you use the adjustable TjMax feature then it will save your new TjMax in the INI file. If you go into the RealTemp.INI file and delete all entries that start with TjMax then it will rescan your CPU next time you start up RealTemp and use the default.

Edit: I should use RealTemp more often. Looks like the Defaults button in the Settings window also restores TjMax to the default settings.

I don't believe that TjMax is the great mystery that Intel makes it out to be. I do believe that the sensors they use aren't great for reporting idle temperatures and not releasing any official value for TjMax is a good way to cover that fact up. To document what TjMax really is would open up a big can of worms. Sometimes saying nothing is best. Class action lawsuits can be expensive when you sell as many processors as Intel does!

P.S. - The start minimized bug is fixed.

Two so far for that. RejZoR helped me figure out that it is likely a timing problem so I adjusted that a little and added a second try at Minimizing if the first one didn't take. If it works I better leave it alone now. Pretty sad when you have to slow software down to make it more compatible with Vista.

No problem CBird28. Check out RealTemp and read the docs and learn what the issues with these sensors are. Once you go through the calibration process of your own processor you might start to see why I think RealTemp is giving you the straightest, least BS temperature results.

[loonym]

The competition does absolutely zero real world testing and basis their results on non-existent documentation from Intel

Except for the ones that are basing their results on copying you

[unclewebb]

Except for the ones that are basing their results on copying you

Why do you think I've hid my TjMax table. Let 'em squirm a little.

[TAOTAO161]

it's seems like the ver 2.69.5 read my OC Q6600 temp's better than the ver 2.60, and some general Question.
if i read me CPU or any other component with several programs in parallel, is it harm the accuracy of the sensor read ?

[-X-hellfire]

...installed the latest RT 2.69.5


the core order have changed again, but this time it's the first time I seen APIC ID = 0132


probably just a random thing but as usual these new thing one find different than before occurs when one have just installed a new version but hey that computers


btw I had some freak instabillities and crashes first when used the Speedstep (C1E) but also later when it was disabled, crashes mostly in firefox etc, it tuns out that some cables to ADSL modem and Router, which I havent touch for let say 10 years, was glitchy, but I fixed it yesterday and now the "3 times rebooting" before internet works is gone and firefox is finally stable again


btw since a couple of months maybe ½ year I put in a powerswitch for the ADSL modem, Router and a lamp, just to be able to shut them down while the mouse in my sig is charging ovenight when the computer is "powered off", anyway I noticed a couple of days ago that lamp suddemly fickered and the Router restarted when the computer was on...
...and removed that powerswitch as I though that was the culprit sometimes for the other problems, it´s possible that it has done some micro power outs for them before, only restarting the router, anyways "Murphys Law" always applies with computers :whistle:

I have had the minimized problem in the previous version of RT, but that might be because the computer didn't shut sown correctly due to the internet problems, took long time before computer shutdown and windows forcefully terminates that application





One more thing is that the previous versions lately has been very slow when the computer starts, RT has started but shows empty temperature icons for laet say 20-30 seconds until allmost everything else has finished as the computer starts, is this normal?


I will post this and restart the computer and report back when it starts


Always great work you put into this application


edit:
...restarted and RT now minimized correctly

still waits with empty icons until the icons get temp info and start showing the accurate numbers, but I guess this is normal

APIC ID = 0231 ...now and thats what I seen before, probably some weird glicth before


forgot the picture before, anyway here it is...

[Mr Roboto]

Hm, but wouldn't CoreTemp work right if you change the Tj.Max value to the correct one (85 instead default 100 for E4300)? It does offer the option to change it... Or is there some other calculation involved other than only Tj.Max value ?

Yes I was just more or less saying that 95c Max Junction Temperature is right on. There is an .ini file in core temp's main folder. Just set it to -10.

[unclewebb]

TAOTAO161: There have been lots and lots and lots of changes, new features and improvements since version 2.60. I think both versions should report your temps about the same though. You should get accurate temp readings no matter how many apps are running on your computer. Long term stability has been significantly improved since version 2.61 of RealTemp. I previously didn't have enough time or tools to test for this.

Here's a pic of 18 instances of RealTemp running at the same time without any problems. Only hard part is trying to get a screen shot with them all showing the exact same temperature. At least they're all pretty close:



-X-hellfire: The APIC ID which is the proper term for what I was previously calling Core Order can change with each re-boot. AFAIK, it's the order that your bios assigns cores to Windows. I think 0123 is normal and the most common APIC ID but some motherboards change frequently and some never change. I went 3 months at 0123 and now my APIC ID has been 0213 for about the last month. Some users will see different APIC ID values several times a day if they re-boot a lot. I'm not sure why this happens but at least RealTemp tries to compensate for this and will hopefully report your core temps in the correct physical order no matter what APIC ID pops up. CoreTemp and Everest are ignoring this issue so your hot core or your cold core might move around from day to day or with each reboot.

....the previous versions lately has been very slow when the computer starts, RT has started but shows empty temperature icons for like say 20-30 seconds until almost everything else has finished as the computer starts, is this normal?

That's not normal at all and sounds like a problem with your computer. Whenever I start RealTemp on my computer there is temperature data being displayed within 1 second of starting the program. Anyone else having this issue?

[Puttz]

The default one that RealTemp uses is best. For your Quad that is TjMax=95C.

Thanks Unc!

[-X-hellfire]

TAOTAO161:
Here's a pic of 18 instances of RealTemp running at the same time without any problems. Only hard part is trying to get a screen shot with them all showing the exact same temperature. At least they're all pretty close:



-X-hellfire: The APIC ID which is the proper term for what I was previously calling Core Order can change with each re-boot. AFAIK, it's the order that your bios assigns cores to Windows. I think 0123 is normal and the most common APIC ID but some motherboards change frequently and some never change. I went 3 months at 0123 and now my APIC ID has been 0213 for about the last month. Some users will see different APIC ID values several times a day if they re-boot a lot. I'm not sure why this happens but at least RealTemp tries to compensate for this and will hopefully report your core temps in the correct physical order no matter what APIC ID pops up. CoreTemp and Everest are ignoring this issue so your hot core or your cold core might move around from day to day or with each reboot.



That's not normal at all and sounds like a problem with your computer. Whenever I start RealTemp on my computer there is temperature data being displayed within 1 second of starting the program. Anyone else having this issue?

Great screen cap of 18 instances of RT, finally we found something for those Quads to do


Yeah the APIC ID = 0321 after another reboot which shows that it swapw the core order frequently on my computer, well I´ts very good to know it it I was into overclocking, going crazy with temps all over the place from time to time must be tiresome if you try to collect some comparative data



It took 38 seconds to show the RT icons temp this time even though I did a let the Registry Mechanic tried to clean up the registry before reboot (which took at least 1 minute before it could shutdown windows, something is definitely not right)

It must be something else but enough already, that another thread or something as it´s not really RT related

[unclewebb]

My favorite program for finding out about all the junk that loads up with Windows is AutoRuns. In the wrong hands it could be dangerous so use some caution. It finds pretty much every location where stuff is hiding in your registry that starts up when Windows does. It was written by some very smart individuals that have plenty of knowledge about the inner workings of Windows. It was such a good program that of course Microsoft bought them out.

RealTemp should show your temp data consistently now and coming from the correct core no matter what APIC ID mood your motherboard is in.

[JohnZS]

Thanks JohnZS. All programs are reading the same info from the same sensors so I'm not sure what OCCT is reporting or why. The competition thinks their interpretation of the data coming from these sensors is right and obviously I think my interpretation is right. Good to hear that RT is working for you.

The PROCHOT# reading at the bottom of RealTemp shows you if a core is overheating. That's Intel speak for Processor Hot which is a signal from the processor that it is too hot and thermal throttling has begun to keep the temperature from getting any hotter. This data is separate from the DTS temperature data but is likely coming from the same sensors. Intel individually calibrates these processors so I'm assuming that PROCHOT# is working correctly even on CPUs with dodgy sensors. If the PROCHOT# boxes are clear in RealTemp then the CPU isn't throttling and it should be running happily at full speed.

I'm working with RejZoR at the moment trying to find out why RealTemp doesn't start minimized for some users. He has it in the Task Scheduler and found that he needs to set a time delay for it to minimize properly on start up. I tried to make RealTemp start up as quickly as possible but it looks like I might have to build in a delay option for Vista users. Whatever it takes to keep everyone happy.

In XP you can drag programs into the All Programs -> Startup folder. Does Vista have this option or do you have to use Task Scheduler?

If you have this problem with Vista then try setting a delay and see if that works. I'm not a fan of Registry mods but I might have to add that option so users can add it to their Start Up area that way.

Thanks Uncleweb,
So basically OCCT's "CPU Too Hot" after 5mins is complete nonsense as none of the PROCHOT#! are ticked, crossed or filled. They are all clear
I can survive Stress Prime (with all 4 cores maxed) the hottest reading on RealTemp is 63C (this is on Core 2)
Now...if only OCCT would use your program or offer the end user to choose which program they would prefer to monitor temps
With both OCCT and RealTemp 2.60 open OCCT reads 73C (when it stops) and Realtemp reads 63C, 63C is very hot so I am considering changing the Stock Extreme HSF for something like a Xigmatek HDT S1283 which should bring temps down...hopefully
John

[WrigleyVillain]

I know I need to test my cpu myself but can someone give me ballpark on what to set tjmax to for an e8400?

[Bullet92]

Usually 95°C.

[unclewebb]

Usually 95°C.

Always 95°C.

My theory based on testing is that PROCHOT# or the point where a processor starts to thermal throttle can vary by a degree or two from one processor to the next but TjMax is fixed for all E8400 CPUs. I realize that there are plenty of people that disagree with that statement but I haven't seen any testing yet to back up their theories.

JohnZS: I don't put too much faith in any software that tells me my processor is "Too hot" if it doesn't even know what the correct core temperature really is. OCCT obviously means well but it's using the wrong TjMax and is reporting the core temperature 10C too high just like Everest and CoreTemp do.

If you are Prime stable at 63C and don't plan to overclock any further then you're fine. Running as cool as possible improves stability but if you're already stable and happy with your overclock then temps aren't really important. Do you have any real world software that you run that gets your cores up anywhere near 63C? Most users don't. Prime is great for stability testing but is a little overkill compared to most gaming or video / music encoding a user ever does.

You can be Prime stable at over 90C if you're not overclocking too much and your processor won't start to thermal throttle and slow down until about 93C so at 63C you still have lots and lots of head room before you'll ever hurt anything.

[WoodButcher]

Hey uncle, I did the comparison, water vs air.
My CPU loop is a 355 w/XSPC res top, Dtek v2, MCP320 w/ultra kaze 3000.
The air cooler is a Thermalright Ultra 120 w/Panaflow high speed, FBA12G12H1BX

edit- oops! my sig. Q6600@ 3.4 Underwater, P5E-VM HDMI, 4GB OCZ 5,5,5,15 EVGA 8800GT, P.C.P.&C 610w

in the bios, 1.10 vcore, auto multi as it wouldn't boot vista w/ the bios set to 6, speedstep, CIE enabled, 266 fsb . CPUz read 1.048 volts, 6 x 267.3 for 1603MHz.
I ran the air and and water temps in F because one of the thermos I had to verify didn't do C.
Air temp was steady 77f (25c) for both runs. I had 3 thermometers, one is on the PC, a sensor in front of the rad, this is the same unit I use for water temp , Lian Li 3 fan control. (sucks for fans but the temp sensors are good!)
Two others within inches of the PC and when I ran the TR I set one infront of the intake air inside the PC, both side panels are off.
The water temp bounced from 77-79f so I'm thinking 25.5-26c, the sensor for the cpu loop in the res right after the chip. You're right on the money with the low and slow approach. There is very little heat
here's the screenie, water on the left-


What are your thoughts? What would you use for calbration in these two instances?

[unclewebb]

Thanks WoodButcher for your numbers.

Based on my testing of my Q6600 - G0 with a Tuniq air cooler, I would try using calibration factors so that your reported core temperatures are about 6C higher than your air temperature.

With your numbers that would mean approximately:
( 1.5, 1.5, 2.0, 1.3 )

That should bring your idle temps up to about 31C which is 6C above your 25C air temp.

Using these same factors let's see if your reported temps when using water would make any sense.

Your water screen shot shows ( 23C, 23C, 22C, 25C )

When using the above calibration factors, that would be reported as ( 29C, 29C, 30C, 30C ) or an average core temperature of 29.5C. If your water temperature is about 25.5C then your core temperature is being reported about 4C higher than your water temperature which seems pretty reasonable to me.

We have to keep in mind that this calibrating procedure is far from an exact science. There is a margin of error in all of the temperature data that is gathered. Any uncalibrated, consumer grade digital thermometer will never be 100% accurate. The other problem is that the data coming from the Intel digital thermal sensors is integer data and we don't have any documentation which shows their accuracy, repeatability or even how they round off the data before outputting it. Would an actual temperature of 24.7C get rounded up to 25C (DTS=70) or does it get chopped off and output as 24C (DTS=71)?

Even with all of the maybes, I think the end result after this calibration are reported temperature numbers that are closer to the actual temperature. With something like an IR thermometer you might get another degree closer to the truth but I don't think it's worth it. The Fluke 62 that I've used is rated at +/- 1C at these temperatures so you might not be any better off even if you threw some more money at trying to get the exact core temperature of your Quad.

A quick RealTemp style calibration is enough for most users to get in the general ball park.

[WoodButcher]

Thanks to you!
I know you put a great deal of time into RT and many others have helped w/ the testing on air. With rge and I both doing the air / water comparison folks on water will be able to have some idea where to start. If a few more folk run this comparison it would be a worthy footnote to the calibrations page. Until now I felt like working off a guesstimate, I'll grant you any temp program given the inacuracies and lack of hard date is a guess but Realtemp because of you is an Xtremely well educated guess.

Now,,, jump in the car and go someplace others can call you a "dirty old man" you deserve some bikini watching! If the other half asks why you're taking binoculars tell her,,,
Birdwatching!
redbreasted harlots, blonde topped boobies and white tailed hens! works for me!

[RejZoR]

Well i seee no point on hunting sub 1°C accuracy. I need temperature monitoring just to keep an eye on my CPU. If it's running at 35°C all the time and some day it's constantly hitting 50°C i'd probably go and check if cooler is attached right or if fan is rotating or maybe dust crapified everything. 49, 50 or 51, does it matter? I'll notice the 35 to ~50 jump...

[unclewebb]

If you are using Excel it isn't too hard to import the RealTemp log file.

Start up Excel (2003 for this example) and select File -> Open and change the view to All Files. Point it to the RealTempLog.txt file and click on open.

It will give you some options and all you have to do is select Fixed Width and Next a couple of times and you're finished. Remember to save it as a standard Excel worksheet when you're done.

That's not a perfect solution but it will work. I'll try to create a comma separated file option (.csv) maybe tomorrow so it will be a little easier to directly import into Excel.

RejZoR: Your absolutely right. 1C here or there isn't anything to get too concerned about. It's when the errors start to approach 10C or 15C like some software does, then I get concerned.

When you look at all the possible measurement errors and the nature of these sensors, etc. I think the temps we are getting from RealTemp are excellent. As the programmer of this I know I am more than just a little biased but as a person that has used RT and tested with RT for several months I'm happy and confident when I grab this program to do some temperature testing.

[unclewebb]

I thought I was done but if someone needs RealTemp to output some Excel friendly (.csv) files then I'll do it. By the way, it's done!

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/3/...alTempBeta.zip

It's not user friendly at the moment but I think there is enough room to squeeze in this option into the Settings window. For the moment you will need to go into the RealTemp.ini file and add this:

CSV=1

Now the log file will be saved as RealTempLog.csv which can be directly imported into Excel and saved as a worksheet. How's that for productivity on a Friday night? Obviously I need to get a life!