A challenge - PA120.3 vs HE120.3 vs PA160.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

I believe DD's dual HC is a 2-199, which is shorter and fatter than a 2-302. Should be approximately the same performance as a 2-302, as they're very similar in design.

[Cathar]

I have finished collecting results for the PA120.1 on my updated testbed, and am in the process of re-testing other radiators as well.

The new testbed produces C/W results that are about 5% worse than the old testbed, but is also somewhat more accurate I believe.

The closest competing equivalent 12x12cm cored radiator format is around 10% worse than the PA120.1. While I don't have a heater-core style radiator here, I do have access to detailed test data comparing a 2-302 heater-core style radiator cut down to 12x12cm to another radiator which I do have here, and up to a single 80cfm 12cm fan at least, the PA120.x is performing between 12-15% better, which in real-world terms means 0.5-1.5C better water temps. The weaker the fan, the greater the performance difference and also the greater the temperature improvement.

Remember that the goal here is to offer maximum cooling performance with the 12x12cm form factor, or multiples thereof. The results I have here are also showing that the 120.1 holds up very favorably against even the 160.1 at very weak fan powers (<30cfm), getting within 0.5C real-world water temps, but once stronger/noisier fans are trotted out the 160.1 starts to run away with the show.

My test data is very strongly showing that up to 80cfm that the PA120.1 radiator is the clearly superior 12x12cm form-factor performer, and only when coupled with >100cfm fannage (per 12x12cm unit) do the other radiators catch up.

The above discussion can be considered preliminary at this stage, and I'll publish more detailed results when I complete more re-tests with the other radiators I have here.

[fareastgq]

that's excellent, thanks much cathar, I'll deff be reccomending these for top notch cooling. As always, in water cooling the differences are very small, but still significant for the hardcore. It could mean those last 10 mhz, hehe. Also marci, what model is that core that DD sells?

[deception``]

Would a single PA120 be sufficient for a Swiftech Storm and Maze 4 acetal block? This is primarily for an Opteron 146 @ 3.0 GHZ (~ 1.5 volts) and a 6800GS that I plan to voltmod.

deception``

[Marci]

It would be sufficient, but a PA120.2 would do it more justice.

[MaxxxRacer]

DD's HC is about 5-15% worse performance than the 2-302 (DD is 2-199) according to Weapons testing/calculations, but they are very similar.

In any case it would be a good comparison.

[razor_dsm]

Nice finaly someone with solid results. The TEC's are still installed in these tests right? I know this isnt a black ice thread but id like to see the BIX II and III listed here to just for a comparison.

I also didnt notice any shrouds when using the dual and tripple radiators. the pa60 comes with one, id like to see what the readings would be on a PA120.3 with the equal shroud distance of the pa160

[dnottis]

Would a single PA120 be sufficient for a Swiftech Storm and Maze 4 acetal block? This is primarily for an Opteron 146 @ 3.0 GHZ (~ 1.5 volts) and a 6800GS that I plan to voltmod.

deception``

I'm running an opty 148 @ 3.0 Ghz 1.44v (swiftech MCW6000) and an X1900XTX max CCC (690/800) (maze 4 acetal) on a single BIP with 2x 120s (push pull) ~56 CFM on each - idle/load of CPU is 28/38 GPU is 33/41. Perfectly happy although considering adding another BIP or PA160.

BIP can dissipate ~440W and my CPU is about 130w, the video card ~160w.

[snowwie]

yeah a single BIP can handle quite a bit, as long as it as sufficient airflow.
I have one on my venice at 3ghz and 6800gt at (I don't remember, but heavy OC), with a 105cfm sunon cools very well. also does so with a 75cfm delta (only ~1c diff). but put a 50 cfm fan or lower and performance drops a bit much for my tastes.

[dnottis]

Does anyone know (marci or cathar I would imagine will know) what the estimated heat dissipation for the PC160 is, the BIP is 440W. I'm just curious for comparison sake.

Here is the info I've been able to find so far on Black Ice Pro products...

BIP (single 120) 378 KCal/hour (1501 BTU per hour) or 440W

BIP II (dual 120) 1155 KCal/hour (4583 BTU per hour)

[snowwie]

it's probably impossible for thermochill to even estimate numbers comparable to what hw labs publishes...we don't know the conditions of their testing

probably a best case scenario thing

[Marci]

At what given liquid flow rate and airflow rate? It isn't a fixed figure.

eg:

No single ‘value’ is proposed as a rating as there is no even nominal consensus within the watercooling community (I hesitate to say ‘Industry’) as to the characterization of testing and rating conditions. My considered opinion would be to use 3.8 lpm (1.0 gpm) as the coolant flow rate and 10°C as the air to coolant temperature differential. (Note that this conflicts with the testing done for this report. Converting to a 10°C basis would double the dissipation values shown in the graphs; the C/Ws are the same.)

Unfortunately this does not in any way resolve the issue: What is to be the air flow for the ‘rating’ conditions?

Despite my reluctance, and conservatism, the radiators ‘need’ a rating. I would suggest the following:

The defined rating conditions are:

* 10°C coolant / air differential
* 3.8 lpm (1.0 gpm) coolant flow rate, and
* a high performance fan (or fans, mounted on one side only).

Under such conditions the radiators would have the following ratings:


HE 80.1
100 Watts
0.104 c/w

HE 92.1
150 Watts
0.070

HE 120.1
250 Watts
0.039

HE 120.2
400 Watts
0.024

HE 120.3
550 Watts
0.015

Note that the radiators are capable of dissipating more heat than indicated above - the coolant temperature will simply rise until equilibrium is achieved.

Source: http://www.overclockers.com/articles778/index05.asp - BillA Technical Data

PC Radiators can dissipate 1Kw happily, just not at any temp we'd consider suitable... and with airflow producing more noise than we'd consider suitable.

[MaxxxRacer]

i calculated that with a 10C dt water in to water out temp, and 5gpm you could disipate some insane wattage... several kw if i remember correctly..

the limitaion on heat disipation, as marci pointed out, is that the flow rates, fannage levels, and dT's would be too large to be deemed accceptable.

[dnottis]

i calculated that with a 10C dt water in to water out temp, and 5gpm you could disipate some insane wattage... several kw if i remember correctly..

the limitaion on heat disipation, as marci pointed out, is that the flow rates, fannage levels, and dT's would be too large to be deemed accceptable.

Understood. I guess the only way to know of the PA160 would give me a bump in performance - would be to TRY it!

Thanks guys!

[Primoz78]

I have now a Nexxxos Xtreem 2 rad and an hydor L35 pump....but I want something more so I decided (almost) to change for an PA120.2 (or HE) and an MCP655 (the 50Z is not available in EU)...it will be a suitable change this or not?...I have just a CPU under water for now but in the near future the GPU it will be too...The water cooling system is mounted in CM Stacker and on the rad will be equipped with 2x120mm Schyte S-FLEX SFF21F with 63CFM...

Regards,
Primoz

[Marci]

(the 50Z is not available in EU)

Yes it is... www.extremeprometeia.com
PA120.2 should gain you a handful of degrees over NexXxos, an 50Z or 655 another handful over L35.

[Primoz78]

Yes it is... www.extremeprometeia.com
PA120.2 should gain you a handful of degrees over NexXxos, an 50Z or 655 another handful over L35.

Thx, for the tip ...strange...my country is in the EU but the shop don`t charge me VAT...

Regards,
Primoz

[topaimz]

hmmm, what do you think would be better?

pump/res -> pa160 -> cpu -> pa160 -> 2 x 7900GTXs ->
(2 x pa160 system)

or

pump/res -> pa120.3 -> cpu -> 2 x 7900GTXs ->
(one pa120.3 system)

I can mod my case to place the pa120.3 in front of my case (internal)
or
I already have 2 x 120mm fan vents (back and top of chasis) and also
room up at front for the 2 x pa160

[creidiki]

If you have 75cfm-ish on the 160s and 45cfm-ish on the 120.3 theyll be probably equivalent... but the dual 160 will be make more noise.

[topaimz]

really? its 2 x 120mm fans against 3 x 120mm fans though

[creidiki]

Yeah, but 2 fans @ 40dba are louder than 3 @ 28dBA - decibel is a logarithmic scale.

If you use 85CFM fans, the 160 will perform within a few % of a 120.2, but its going to be louder than a 120.2 with 2 45CFM fans (yates, for example)... because bunkus fan reseller stats apart, an 85cfm fan is going to be in the upper 40s as far as dBA goes.

If yove got some skill and the space in you case, you could make shrouds to use 140mm fans on the PA160s - for example, these Yate Loon D14SM-12, which are 62CFM and 29dBA. Then you could get the same performance of a 120.3 for less noise.

[dnottis]

When are we going to see some 160mm fans that can be directly strapped onto the PA160?

Maxxracer didn't have any pump suggestions in his guide... what is the best pump? I thought the best pump would have the best maximum head rating but some of these pumps like the 655 (10ft) and the L35 (6ft) have less than the MCP350 (13ft),which I have, yet I never see anyone suggesting the MCP350 - I'm just curious, why is this?

[MadMikeSS]

I guess you missed the separate Pump guide:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=41495

[topaimz]

29 dBA?! That is tooo loud for my sensitive ears~!

I get agitated when I hear anything around 30dba

I am currently running a passive WC system
only cpu to cool, so no worries.

However, in the near future, when GX2 or black pearl
comes out, Imma hook those buggers up to my WC,
so Im considering what I should do

[creidiki]

Well, youre kinda screwed then, the best silent fans are Yate Loon D12SL-12, rated 45CFM, 26dBA - all other with lower noise ratings lie...