Nvidia 169.XX drivers are being questioned in Crysis

Stretching found in the reflections from the water when using Crysis.exe
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...ndle/bug02.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...le/bug01-2.jpg


Reflections are not Stretched in the water when using Driverbug.exe
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...e/normal02.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1.../normal0_1.jpg


From reading the article, Crysis updates reflections at a preset value. However, the author indicates that the stretching reflection on the water is a result of the updates being reduced. Therefore, instead of getting updates every few frames it becomes infrequent. The author then changes Crysis.exe to driverbug.exe and claims that the reflection in the water is no longer found. In other words the reflections updates as they should.


http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...le/169gtaa.png


Source

Visit the article (linked from the Source) for other details. However, the site appears very busy.


Edit: a new driver from Nvidia is released:
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=243026

Forceware 163.75 WHQL (November 6, 2007)

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* Beta driver for GeForce 6, 7, and 8 series GPUs including GeForce 8800 GT.
* Recommended driver for Crysis single player game demo and TimeShift.
* Several game and application compatibility fixes. Please read the release notes for more information on product support, features, driver fixes and known compatibility issues.

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UPDATE:
The release notes indicate compatibility improvements for TWIMTBP games. Also one user in this thread reports problems installing this driver with his 8800GT


All we need now is a follow up regarding this article to see what the end results are from this update. For example is this post remotely true?

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Because you get higher benchmark score. You optimise your code as best you can, you get correct rendering, and then a little cheat on the water IQ and you get a 7 percent speedup for reviews. Do that in a couple of places, and you're into significant speedups. Then a release or two later, you can "fix" the rendering, and go back to correct visuals at a slower speed.

In the meantime you've had great reviews, and trumped your competition on the benchmark scores.

I don't know why your so disbelieving, we've seen this kind of thing plenty of times before around the release of a big title.

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post

Hopefully, this an other questions can be answered in a follow up!


UPDATE

With the release of beta 169.09 the author has revisited the Crysis benchmarks to see if there is any difference from 169.04. You can read it here

Hmm....

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The following drivers were used:

- NVIDIA ForceWare 163.69 WHQL was used on the GeForce 8800 GTS graphics board
- NVIDIA ForceWare 169.04 Beta was used on both the GeForce 8800 GT and GeForce 8800 GTS graphics boards

The drivers High Quality texture filtering mode was enabled on the NVIDIA boards for all testing.

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Last time I checked, 169.04 wasn´t officially released. They completely missed to use 169.02

Also renaming the exe aint something special. AMD and nVidia got predefined values for alot of games. Some better than others...

Anyway, pretty much a failed article without the 169.02

ALso the subject of the thread is also quite abit misleading. Since its only the .04 beta driver thats tested.

its probably just a driver bug. dont read too much into it. like wow, the review makes it seem like nvidia is trying to cheat with all these new drivers.

Exactly, it's just a bug. Driver tweaks and enhancements happen all the time, that's why we see improvements for newly released games. Sometimes they have undesirable side affects.

Why is it always nVidia supposedly cheating? One would think that AMD/ATi would be the ones looking to pump benches/gaming scores, but instead, we find the current "king" always the one (recently, anyway) that's responsible for all the current fudging.

Not to mention their image quality is always substandard. ATi is still beating them on that. Probably something to do with all their HDTV work that we seldom hear about...

Hasn't NVIDIA pulled crap like this before as well..

Yes, and that's what I was referencing. This is ridiculous, people accept poorer quality and dubious "optimizations" for a larger e-penis, I mean score. I'm dropping nVidia. My x850XT PE has a higher quality 2d and 3d (image quality, not AA/AF-this is NOT that kind of comparison) than my 8800GTS 320. It seems to me that I would see a difference the other way around, considering that the x850 is two generations old...

I'm going to be dumping my 8800 very soon, in favor of 2900 GTs. In addition to the IQ issue, they're cheap power and also they support F@H clients. Better all around, IMHO. Feel free to crucify me at any time...

I present you Nvidia official defense lawyer:

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Originally Posted by Shintai

Hmm....



Last time I checked, 169.04 wasn´t officially released. They completely missed to use 169.02

Also renaming the exe aint something special. AMD and nVidia got predefined values for alot of games. Some better than others...

Anyway, pretty much a failed article without the 169.02

ALso the subject of the thread is also quite abit misleading. Since its only the .04 beta driver thats tested.

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We all know that ATI/NVIDIA cheat everytime. Usual....

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Originally Posted by [XC] Kayin

Why is it always nVidia supposedly cheating? One would think that AMD/ATi would be the ones looking to pump benches/gaming scores, but instead, we find the current "king" always the one (recently, anyway) that's responsible for all the current fudging.

Not to mention their image quality is always substandard. ATi is still beating them on that. Probably something to do with all their HDTV work that we seldom hear about...

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What? That's completely false. nVidia's G80 has better Anisotropic filtering.

Please see http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/200..._hd_2900_xt/11

Seems a little ridiculous to accuse a company of being "questioned" just because of something occurring in beta drivers. Well I guess the fanboys have to do whatever it takes to make ATI gain minimal ground ;)

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Originally Posted by Mekrel

What? That's completely false. nVidia's G80 has better Anisotropic filtering.

Please see http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/200..._hd_2900_xt/11

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i have Two 8800GTS and one HD2900XT ( and tomorow arrive BFG 8800GT) , and i dont agree

It´s true that Nvidia are way better since 8800 series , but in my opinion not so good has AMD/ATi ( im not talking about graphics quality , im talking about Image quality) , anyway it´s just my opinion and i understand other ppl like more nvidia Image , im just saying that personally I lprefer the AMD/ATi Image , now in terms of graphics quality they are both good .


regards

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Originally Posted by NickS

Hasn't NVIDIA pulled crap like this before as well..

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They were busted multiple time back when the ATI 9800 and X800s were on top. Irrc, there were busted by futermark themselves. I don't remember the exact outcome, but it took a few driver revisions before futuremark approved the drivers.

As far as this, from what I can see it may be just a bug, but considering how Crysis is killing cards, they may be trying to cut a few corners.

As far as Image quality, I have never liked Nvidias. I tried several of there cards and always took them back and gotten an ATI. Probaby just personaly preference, but even if I have to be slower, I'll continue to buy ATI for just that reason.

Wow. If that's supposed to be cheating, that's pretty crappy. The reflections are obviously not right if you take the time to compare it. If you are just playing the game, you could totally miss that.

I don't find it interesting at all that when you rename the exe, that the reflections are normal. Everyone knows that there are game specific enhancements. Obviously Nvidia planned to dominate by refreshing every 10 frames rather than every 5 with smeary reflections in a beta driver. Those blackguards!

Good job comparing with a memory-limited card at an unplayable resolution and AA combination with one driver. Keep on rocking.

Side Note: WTH is the deal with these people that take the time to go over these games with a fine-tooth comb and rename executables? Who cares that much about something you aren't getting paid for?

see, when ur cards are pwning the competition in every game anyway, this looks more like an accident than some type of cheating.

Kinda sad.....

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Originally Posted by mascaras

i have Two 8800GTS and one HD2900XT ( and tomorow arrive BFG 8800GT) , and i dont agree

It´s true that Nvidia are way better since 8800 series , but in my opinion not so good has AMD/ATi ( im not talking about graphics quality , im talking about Image quality) , anyway it´s just my opinion and i understand other ppl like more nvidia Image , im just saying that personally I lprefer the AMD/ATi Image , now in terms of graphics quality they are both good .


regards

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I don't see how they can be compared, unless via CSS role over on an exact same frame.

I've owned both ATi and nVidia cards from every generation since the 9800Pro, but I've not owned a R600 card just G80 and I don't recall any one being outstandingly better than the other.

I have not swapped one out straight after another though, just owned one and got replaced with another after selling on the other. I think people just see what they believe to be the case.

I remember an article on transparency AA on a site which used chain fences in HL2, and the roll overs from one card to another didn't look all that different. I remember the X800 series on HL2 had better anisotropic filtering on a CSS roll over as the slanted wall along side a train track wasn't as blurred in the distance.

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Originally Posted by Mekrel

I remember the X800 series on HL2 had better anisotropic filtering on a CSS roll over as the slanted wall along side a train track wasn't as blurred in the distance.

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Boy do I remember that.. That one scene by the railroad tracks in the beginning of the game. Pretty much made me feel completely remorseless for ditching my 6800GT for an X850XTX. Those days are long gone with the G80, and ATI fans trying to hold onto the argument of image quality are like old men who cannot let go of an outdated idea.

Colorful opinions but does anyone have any technical rebuttal to the author's claims

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Normally, Crysis updates the reflections on the water's surface after every few frames, so that the reflections constantly show what you are actually seeing on-screen at that time. This doesn't happen after every frame as a compromise between burning up lots of GPU cycles and making the image that you see in-game look realistic, with an update every three frames or so proving to be more or less adequate in keeping the reflection in the water looking as it should.

However, the 'stretching' effect we are seeing in the screenshots above are due to the water reflections, with any of NVIDIA's ForceWare 169.0x series of drivers in use, being updated far more infrequently - Around every ten frames or so by my calculation.

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Source
other then resorting to name calling? What about the claims made in this post? If there is anyone who refutes can you offer more of a technical rebuttal?

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Because you get higher benchmark score. You optimise your code as best you can, you get correct rendering, and then a little cheat on the water IQ and you get a 7 percent speedup for reviews. Do that in a couple of places, and you're into significant speedups. Then a release or two later, you can "fix" the rendering, and go back to correct visuals at a slower speed.

In the meantime you've had great reviews, and trumped your competition on the benchmark scores.

I don't know why your so disbelieving, we've seen this kind of thing plenty of times before around the release of a big title.

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Some "bug"...

ATi and nV are both dirty in this department and its sad that they resort to means such as this.

Suck it up fanboys, either brand you buy you're going to get this crap and thats exactly why I never buy top end hardware from either nV or ATi anymore. I'll take it for free or cheap but i'll never buy it for retail ever again.

Congrats on a losing a customer.

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Originally Posted by Dainas

Those days are long gone with the G80, and ATI fans trying to hold onto the argument of image quality are like old men who cannot let go of an outdated idea.

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No need to get irritable, its just a matter of taste. Its what makes the world go around. Everyone is different. Hey, some people like rap music. Every time I hear it, it reminds me of the line in The Last Boy Scout, with Bruce Willis

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Originally Posted by Sanborn

Seems a little ridiculous to accuse a company of being "questioned" just because of something occurring in beta drivers.

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Nvidia drivers are always beta drivers!!!
If being beta let them having bugs with they permanent beta drivers, Nvidia have find the perfect way to legally provide buggy drivers :down:

OMG NVIDIA CHEATS!!!!11

Watch it get fixed in the next driver.

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Originally Posted by Cybercat

OMG NVIDIA CHEATS!!!!11

Watch it get fixed in the next driver.

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That's why I asked if anyone had any technical/logical rebuttal to this post

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Because you get higher benchmark score. You optimise your code as best you can, you get correct rendering, and then a little cheat on the water IQ and you get a 7 percent speedup for reviews. Do that in a couple of places, and you're into significant speedups. Then a release or two later, you can "fix" the rendering, and go back to correct visuals at a slower speed.

In the meantime you've had great reviews, and trumped your competition on the benchmark scores.

I don't know why your so disbelieving, we've seen this kind of thing plenty of times before around the release of a big title.

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Originally Posted by PhilDoc

No need to get irritable, its just a matter of taste. Its what makes the world go around. Everyone is different. Hey, some people like rap music. Every time I hear it, it reminds me of the line in The Last Boy Scout, with Bruce Willis

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How was that irritable, you threw out your opinion and I threw mine. The IQ difference between ATI and Nvidia used to be like a slap in the face, and now from everything I've seen its now gone, outside of blatantly botched speedups in drivers which will be fixed as sure as morning(and that better be fixed soon as I'm not buying any technical excuses for nvidia either). Its not like it used to be with the Nv40 and G70 where this garbage anisotropic and AA done by nvidia never went away.

You can belive the sky is green, just don't expect people the bite their tounge out of respect for your views when its clearly black and white, and not a grey zone matter.

Well, saying people who see it differently are old men and suggesting that people who see it differently is like saying the sky is green. Come on, just say you dissagree and say why. Leave the tiny little insults out of it.

I honesly don't understand why people think that anyone who has a different taste is a fool or something. Maybe they're the fool. Maybe they're seeing Green Sky. Maybe they're just taking it too personally.