Printable View
Here are some pictures of my 2 stage autocascade. :D The compressor is a 3/4 hp. I'll post some temps when I fire it off. You can see the TC wires on each of the seps. I have also posted a picture of a project gone wrong. I guess its best to test in fiberglass before foaming. I hope this works! the pictures that is:confused:
looks interesting, the large HX should provide a lot of capacity especially with a 3/4 hp compressor
:smoke: lol Its smokin.... I thought you would use industrial heat exchangers for your autoc but i thought wrong :p: .
Are the 2 large filter acting like a accumulator to hold more liquid so that if provides more capacity to cool the second stage and also to the evaporator?
If so why the extra small filter driers? To filter more moisture out of the system?
Cyro TEach us how to build the most ghetto autocascades for those without money for expensive gas like me. Like those Co2 autocascades is it possible to resolve the dice(dryice) issues?
How do you have issues with dice? Playing yatzi? Or do you mean DRY Ice?
And would you be willing to post the schematic of that system? Be neat to see it in more detail.
very nice cryo-tek. So have you used 1/4" inside 5/8" or is that 3/16".
that bottom tube is the phase sepetator? like the way you have it close to hx, the cold would cool that tube somewhat im guessing and help with separation.
im not exactly sure what that top pipe is for though, unless you are running two separators with hxs in parallel
what gasses are you using?
The HXC is about 9” tall, 18” long and 5” deep. The two larger vertical tubes are the phase separators and the smaller bulbs in front of the captubes are strainers to keep the crud out of the captubes. I do purge with N2 while brazing, the strainers are extra insurance. The bottom heatexchanger is an auxiliary condenser. The center one is the first cascade condenser and the top one is the second cascade condenser. I added some notes to the picture. I’ll try it out this weekend.
Did any one find the Cool solenoid valve? it's under the auxiliary condenser.
Why did the picture open on this posting and not my first one?
Wait so 2 phase seperators? Wouldnt that be a 3 stager?
HELP !! I'm stuck,:confused:
I need two refrigerants, one that is similar to R-123 and one similar to R-22.
:rolleyes:
Must have a 0 ODP
Not R245fa
Not R125
Non-flammable
The R-123 replacement should be miscible with POE oil or AB oil.
It’s going to be a green cascade.:banana:
R134A? Which low temp gas are you goung to use i want to learn more.Hope you can teach me.:D
I only have two stages.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
The auxiliary condenser doesn’t count as a cascade. The condensed refrigerant in the first phase separator comes from the condenser or in my case, the auxiliary condenser. That condensed refrigerant is feed through a captube into the suction of the first cascade condenser. This cools the discharge gas from the first phase separator creating condensate for the second phase separator. And it repeats. Sorry, I ramble when it gets late.:rolleyes:
The first phase separator is on the left. Discharge in the side and out the top. Look at the cascades. check out were the discharge is run. Inside on cc1............
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx
Right now I'm thinking R-123, R-22, R-23, R-14. R-123 and R-22 cools the first stage, R-23 cools second and the R-14 cools the evap. If the sizing is close then I will try for a green unit.
:YIPPIE: Green autocascades
Ah i get the picture. But where does your discharge gas exits from your phase sep cant see it in the pictures unless you have them in the center behind the phase seps sorry cant see it clearly but i believe u did it this way like all the phase seps i have seen.
What is in your phase seps, i find it strange that the ppl in XS use much longer and bigger phase seps than yours.Yours look much more like a filter.
The first phase separator is on the left. Discharge in the side and out the top. Look at the cascades. check out were the discharge is run. Inside on cc1............:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx
Whats in the phase separator? MAGIC THINGS ! Not really its just steel wool.
In terms of physical properties, R11 should replace R123, but i don't think that's as 'green' as what you're looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
R115 instead of R22 maybe. I wouldn't say propane because it's flammable, but cheap and easy to find...
Thanks Ima01. R-115:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by lma01
I think R-11 is as non green as they come. I'm looking for the Xtreme, the new.
Steel wool? I thought that was to be avoided...
steel wool can be used as long as you purge with nitrogen else it will burn up and you'll get lots of black burned iron oxide particles in the system.
possible r123 replacement (if you can find it) : HFE-E347mmy1 / CF3-CF(OCH3)-CF3
Here are the test results from last night.
Operating pressures: 18 / 170
Discharge +77c
Separator #1: -27c
Separator #2: -54c
Evap in: -110c
Air temp in box: -84c
The box that I'm cooling is a 20 inch cube. (20”x 20”x 20”)
And all on one compressor correct?
Amazing.
could you post some pics of the entire setup? that would be great
Just one compressor. It's an old condensing unit I found at the salvage yard.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
i tough you knew what an autocascade was:p:Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
J/K:D
Well yeah autocascade is 1 compressor but he has 2 phase seperators on a 2 stager. I'd like to see a diagram cause I cant see in all that insulation foam.
I don't think there is much left in terms of diagram... unless he has some strange trick up the sleeve. What I see though is the need to explain usage and proportion of gas :) (and compressor) lol.
Most of us here don't have luxury of access to many gas and experiment can get... VERY expensive. Bit of nudge here and there can help :)
I think the reason his works so well is becuase of massive subcooling. There isnt 2 hx's on a 3 stager for him. There's just one giant HX.
Damn nice results ! So did you went with "green" gases or the r123,r22,r23 and r14?Quote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
Are you using expansion tanks at all ?
It's not green yet. Yes, I have an expansion tank with a captube.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaster
Could you post photos of the entire freezer?
Regards
John.
Actually, there's 3 separate HX's on the unit - 2 cascade condensors and an aux. condensor.....Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
The design he showed me had one long suction. Are you sure Stephen?
H*rny unit there.. from what i have heard.. youre a impressive great guy !!
Help us amaze in u ;)
Check your Email......... then look at post #7 of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
Replied to email.
and what about the solenoide... whats its role in the system?
what gas is the aux cond cooling? :D
Where is the solenoid...?
Anyways, few uses I could see for using solenoid...
#1. bypass for gas.
#2. enabling and disable certain stages to aid in pulling down to temperature... and depending on gas, shutting down certain stages to keep it above freezing point.
#3. connection to expansion tank.
Hmm... solenoid do sounds useful on complex system after all.. :P
So where is it and which is it for? :P (I still haven't seen the pic with solenoid in?)
as far as it seems the solenoide seems to control the flow to the aux cond
now, what controls the solenoide? a thermostat? or a pressurestat ?
so the aux cond only works to start off the system?
hehehe lots of doubts...
Couple of questions:D
How did you make the phase seperators and how did you make those heat exchangers?
Still like to see pics of the whole system too;)
Regards
John.
yeah i want a picture of everything!
what is your evap like and what kind of load does the unit hold?
Ummm...didn't he send you that schematic AFTER you had posted? I'm not sure what he showed you, but I thought you were talking about the unit he initially posted here. BTW, I saw this unit running in person yesterday and it IS everything he's claimed it to be - and MUCHMUCh more :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
@ Blaster: I think the aux. condensor is used to boil off any remaining refrigerant on the suction.
@ Jin: It's in the pic, towards the bottom of the unit
@ Rev: The "evap" is a "cube"-like box which resembles a cryo-chamber of sorts. The unit was able to bring the air temps in the chamber down to -85C.
Oh, btw, the solenoid is used to turn the cooling on and off for the cooling chamber. It's connected to a manual switch.
Sorry different diagram I was showed.
I know of the diagram he showed you, I'm just trying to clarify what we're talking about :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
Maybe he should convert it from a chillbox to an evap head! :)
Hehehe..no need to...he's already playing with my polycold ;) Currently @ -136C and dropping :slobber:Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
O shiznat. s7' your one lucky guy.
I am, aren't I :p: All credit goes to cryo-tek though. He's simply brilliant. I forsee a new thread coming....;)Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
Uhm, more pics less talk ;)
Sounds pretty neat :D
hey cryo, what kind of load do you have in that box?
thats magic cryo-tek.
can you do a basic drawing of the hxs.
i got some copper tubing today and thinking i want to make a hx similar to that.
Seems we all got something to learn. ;)
IIRC, he uses a mandrel to bend the tube in shell hx's. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by kayl
You guys are great! I have been playing with autocascades for years and my friends just roll their eyes when I start talking about them. No interest at all! zero, zip, nata!!
Now I have found a place where there are other people who enjoy playing with cascades and you think creatively. I was amazed when I found the thread with the cold heads. Everything from heads built with a drill and file to CMC turned. Creativity at its finest !!
This 2 stage autocascade project started with an old Missimer environmental test chamber that I found in the back of a paper converters shop. Must be from the 60s, it is all old school relays and controls. It had a 2 stage cascade with two 1 H.P. compressors. They were the first things to hit the trash.
The rebuild is designed around a 1 H.P. condensing unit. The liquid receiver became an expansion tank to lower the head pressure during the initial cool down. This also helps to keep the warm static pressure down. The compressor didn’t like starting when the static pressure was over 120psi.
I wanted to precool the cascade before the load from the box was applied so a solenoid valve was installed at the inlet of the final captube. It’s located low so that the discharge refrigerant flow from the second cascade is all downhill through the valve to the captube. The valve is a sporland A3S1. The A3F1 would have been nice but it has a nylon seat and it leaked past when cold. The A3S1 has a metal seat.
Captubes are easy,:confused: A one H.P. needs a total flow of around 1.787. I threw 60% at the CC1. 20% at cc2 and 20% at the evap.
OOPS! got to go, dinner is burning! I hate the smell of hotdogs burning on a hot discharge line:eek:
Speak for yourself :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
s7e9h3n, Thanks for answering the questions. I have a problem with your unit, I said that I would give you -120c I was wrong........you have -141c. Is this OK ?:banana:
I guess I can deal with it :p: Time for me to start a new thread as I'm guessing you're about to be bombarded with questions that could take a couple of pages to answer ;) That's just insane :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
P.S. Nice blurry pic by the way :D
I'm just having fun !! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
cryo-tek may i ask what is cooling your Aux condensor?
I only understand taht You have condense part of the mix in your normal condensor then it travels to this aux condensor and that is where i am curious. I know what is cooling your cc1 and cc2 but not your aux condensor. And may i ask if there are Co2 autoc in the industry?
This is good:toast:
Awesome temps there Cyro:)
@Stephen...It will tame prescot:)
Have fun fielding questions :DQuote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...66#post1413666
You, my friend, ARE THE MAN :toast:
Hyx, The suction refrigerant that comes out of CC1 is still very cold and it would be a waist to just dump it into the compressor. Is it is used to cool the discharge refrigerant before it gets to the first separation point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx
thanxs s7e9h3n. bending that by hand would be a mission.Quote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
Cryo-tek im interested in what the purpose of r123 in your autocascades.
Looking at pressure charts I see that it boils at only 27c ? but it has a molecular mass of 153g/mol so it has the potential to remove a large amount of heat.
Do it mix with either of the other gasses to give that refrigerant a lower boiling point or just used to help first stage cascade condenser??
Would using butane achieve a similar effect in a hydrocarbon autocascade??
Ie r600/r290/r170/r1150/r50
Maybe to faciliate oil moving? Just wondering.Quote:
Originally Posted by kayl
Actually Kayl's got it...If I understood Cryo correctly, it's used as a first stage gas due to it's ability to move such large amounts of heat @ a high boiling point....Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
funny thing though it boils above the average room temp?? and would be close to the temp of the condenser out temp??Quote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
hmmm sounds like the oil idea is more correct... it makes alot of sense actually, how do we fix our oil issues? add a gas that doesnt evaporate into the system to carry it all the way through. then when it runs to the aux HX (i think its an SLHX, im just guessing though) it finnaly biols off in the last step of the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by kayl
I am completly guessing though i am the biggest noob to post in this thread so far.
humm sorry Cryo, but is there some table, formulas or some more information on how to do this calculations available?Quote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
like a book or internet webpage... :D
Hey cryo is there any chance you could answer this question. Just im planning my auto cascade and are wanting to know which way to flow my auxiliary condenser and the cascade condenser. Is flow direction important to stick to the traditional way /
ie cc1 cc2 and coaxial hx
ie evap entering the bottom, suction leaving the top of each stage coil stage condenser
with the high stage entering top of the coil condenser and exiting bottom.
i cant confirm but it looks like one of the cc's flows high stage entering bottom??
I follow this diagram but trying to picture direction of flows of the real thing?
Also the ratio size of each stage compared to the others, ie are c1 c2 and the axillary condensers all the same length. o
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7808/cryo11nv.jpg
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...5&d=1145658788
I,m the one who questioned cryo-tec knowledge, as he never posted anything but auto cascade designs, even that he was asked to post pictures or answerers to very specific questions. Those design drawings have been available for 15 years or more. He did post the above picture of his work, the one above using fiberglass insulation. That told me he knew very little about thermodynamics or cooling in general. As moisture will pass right thru the fiberglass insulation.A professional working in cryogenic cooling would not do work like that,especially since it would be so detrimental to the outcome,you would lose much of your capacity. It sure doesn't look like the work from a professional to me.
thats becuase you have good blinders on and missed a rather logical explination as to why he chose to use it, IE fast to get rid of to make mods then replace with new. All so comenly knowen as winging it for a fast prototype.Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
Actually:Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
He makes his work good, s7e9h3n can confirm his awesome job (are you jealous?) ! You always say the same and we all know it... I think 90% of the forum don't interest for you boring safety drivel! A lot more people want to know who to build a working autocascade... if you are so clever tell us how to do!
Please stop posting such stupid posts in conjunction with cyro-tek....
What insulation would you use if you perhaps must work there later? -.-
professionals Don't "Wing it" it is designed on paper(or CAD now days) & built ,fiberglass insulation will do more to harm to the unit than nothing at all,as moisture passes right thru and it will freeze to a solid block of ice. someone who is a specialist in cryogenic cooling would know that, you'd have to be pretty dumb not to know that about insulation.:stick:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony
So you're basically saying that to test the unit, he should have cast it all in foam, and then had he found a problem he would have to completely remove all the foam? Considering the fiberglass was just for testing, I hardly see a problem with it. That's like saying "I don't know if this compressor works or not. Instead of turning it on for a second or two without it plumbed into a system, then changing the oil afterwards if it works, I'll just completely build a unit and then test it when it's all finished!".Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
I have a lot of very technical information that would move the forum forward, but as long as their are guys who think their is no danger and do sub-standard work, and MOC,k safety MOC, I will not give out designs that are even more complex and potentially more dangerous if not built will ALL the safety devices as designed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moc
So if everyone starts taking safety seriously I may be inclined to release some info,keep in mind a few of my current design may have commercial value, so there may be a underlying reason not to release the design, I figured out how to condense R23 at ambient temperature 72f at a very reasonable pressure of under 250 psi. Single compressor,single gas.
I have quit a few more ideas also. Even that I have a very large inventory and a complete metal shop to build cases and paint room to paint them,I don't try to sell anything here on XS,as I want the younger members who work hard and many are getting introduced into running a business for their first time to make the profit.
.
I brought up the thread my mistake,I went back to grab that pic with the fiberglass insulation then posted there in stead in the new thread as I intended to. you can see I made the same post there also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlz0r
AS to testing, Engineers do their design on paper or CAD,enough is know about how every elbow,bend(depending on radius)and length of pipe affect friction,thus mass flow and pressure. If it does not work on paper it Will not work in real life. To you think pro's go to a job with a tractor trailer load of parts and keep switching out parts until the find a combination that works.Thats what I keep telling you guys ,these forums only touch on less than 1% of the informant ion you need to know.
I did not attack cryo personally, only questioned the information he provided and his work looked sub-standard for a cryogenic pro. Pythagoras and I ask for more pics of his work several time but he never provided any or anything other than 15 year old or older designs that can be found anywhere.
carlez the dumb comment in post 72 answers your question in post 73.
.....Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
Here I stop to discuss with you.
I edited my post to reflect your first comment. As for fiberglass insulation being worse than nothing, it is still an insulator. Whether or not it allows moisture to get through:Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
1. It's going to allow less moisture to get through than if nothing were there at all.
2. Ice in itself acts as an insulator, so if it were to freeze into a solid block of ice, it would be insulated more than if nothing were there at all.
as the ice block grows in size, so does the surface area exposed to ambient air, thus more cooling btu's are lost to the air to maintain your "ice block"......well looks like you got more editing to do.
Its a shame that a few "google engineers" ruin things for everyone who wants to learn.
Safety in the work place is the number 1 priority,whether you work in a industrial,commercial,residential or just a DIY guy at home.Quote:
You don't understand that for some people safety is not everything in their life!
You are responsible not only for your personal safety but that of those around you. Your are responsible for any damage the occurs and any accident that occurs that can be connected to your lack of safety procedures. including criminal prosecution if you ignored warnings and built a device that does conform to all safety standards and someone gets hurt,even if its a secondary action like a fireman responding to put out a house fire or trying to rescue someone over come by toxic fumes or smoke.
I don't know your age but you should give serious consideration to changing your attitude about safety and your work ethic.
Hey everyone....STOP THIS:eek:
There's really no point in debating this topic anymore. No amount of bickering is going to get Cryo-tek to start posting again. (But maybe a phone call will :idea: )
@ Moc: I appreciate the support :toast: however, I know Wdrzal sometimes can go a little overboard when pushing his safety thoughts but when dealing with a matter which could be potentially dangerous, sometimes it's a necessary evil. I know your intentions are good but in the end, I really believe wdrzal's are as well.
@ Walt: I've personally been to Cryo-tek's work and he does, in fact, use fiberglass insulation when testing his units. I recall seeing AT LEAST [5-10] 10HP autocascades designed for -160C temps @ 3500W using such insulation and absolutely NONE of the insulation had frozen into an "ice-cube". Granted the longest time I observed one running was only for about an hour, but that unit showed no problems in terms of freezing the insulation. Regarding Cryotek's "home-brew" autocascade he built: That particular unit was able to cool an aprox. 8-10cu. ft. chamber to -80C @ ~150-200W IIRC. My offer still stands...if you want "real" proof of what Cryo-tek does, PM me as I'd be happy to point you in the right direction (since Cryo-tek had OK'd me doing that for you in the past).....
@ Carlz0r: YGPM ;)
edited by runmc - thanks for the explanation
That particular unit was able to cool an aprox. 8-10cu. ft. chamber to -80C @ ~150-200W IIRC. My offer still stands...if you want "real" proof of what Cryo-tek
AS you know Stephen, I questioned you at length about this chamber in pm
I believe he just used r-23 to cool a empty chamber to -80c. He could have challenged my post or questions, he could have given detailed information on how it worked, but he did not.
I have designs that may have economic value so I,m not posting them on a forum.I suspect if his design was ground breaking .and has economic value he also would not post sensitive information on a forum. take that picture and some of the elementary questions he asked in his post , and that all tells me something.
So This is my last post I have better ways to use my time than try to convince a certain group of "blind" people.
PS: I designed and built a blast freezer that maintains -40 year round. It has a very high heat load as barrels of meat (used for animal food)are continuously brought in by fork lift stacked 2 high and frozen solid .Or I could talk about designing nuclear medicine suites that use radio active isotopes. so I'm not going to wave my resume as I am a modest person and seek nothing as I'm happy in my own skin and what I accomplished. end of story
I hope you guys have gotten this out of your systems. It would much better for all if you could take care of your disagreements in private. I am asking each of you to please put and end to this public bickering. There is a place here for all of us. I don't want to see any empty seats.;)
thanks
This I completely agree with. When you're dealing with something simple, such as a first time single-stage build, you don't need all the safety devices, and you can get away with slightly more unsafe techniques (such as using a compressor as a vacuum pump, propane for a refrigerant, etc.) but when you're dealing with cascades, autocascades, high pressure refrigerants, etc., you do need all the safety you can get.Quote:
Safety in the work place is the number 1 priority,whether you work in a industrial,commercial,residential or just a DIY guy at home.
You are responsible not only for your personal safety but that of those around you. Your are responsible for any damage the occurs and any accident that occurs that can be connected to your lack of safety procedures. including criminal prosecution if you ignored warnings and built a device that does conform to all safety standards and someone gets hurt,even if its a secondary action like a fireman responding to put out a house fire or trying to rescue someone over come by toxic fumes or smoke.
I don't know your age but you should give serious consideration to changing your attitude about safety and your work ethic.