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Just finally saw the light and understood better what Tony had been preaching for a while now - different Drive / Data strengths can help greatly to minimize the coldbug.
I am sure most of the extreme cooling already know - but I think a lot of coldbgged CPUs can be helped to certain degree.
The reason for me posting about this - is just to say thank to Tony for posting about this.
THANKS TONY!
PS Hopefully I'll be able to reach 3.6GHZ soon!
^^
More Info Please!!!
Well thank you m8...im glad it helped youQuote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
dittoQuote:
Originally Posted by Plywood99
Here is what Tony wrote in the RDX thread:Any further explanation should have to come from Tony - as far as my knowledge to this goes would be totally insufficient.Quote:
Cold bug
As you chill a cpu the drive strength from the memory controller increases, so you start overdriving the memory.
So, you have to weaken the drive, you can ONLY do this on the motherboard. You have to switch in resistors that alter the drive weaker or stronger depending on the resistance used. This is also one of the ways you tune a motherboard to clock ram well or a specific type of ram..IE...TCCD etc.
Now its not a full on cure to the cpu overdriving the ram, but if tweaked correctly it will allow a higher fsb to be reached.
So...Cold bug is not a serious issue, its just because the cpu's are not designed to run -50 from the onset, but to say nothing can be done on the motherboard is not true....the only way to even half fix the issue is with tweaks on the motherboard or design the cpu to run at -50 or lower.
Testing at ATI of Gruper and halibut proved this theory correct, if it didn't work we would not have designed it into the board. It won't work for everyone as every cpu is different, but it will help.
All I can share is one of my many experiences of struggling with the coldbug that gives a secnario of where Tony's advise worked
I received from our XXX-IP Steven a X2 4600+ that had no coldbug - no coldbug insofar that it would not crash at a certain temperatures as most AMD will. I could pull the core temperatures down to -100C ( the container bottom temps ~ -160C) and it wouldn't crash.
But my OCs would be almost on the same level as running on cold water.
Trying lots of various things in fighting to get the clocks up I often would set all the ram settings to default - which would often even worsen things I decided to go back to Step 1 and slowly work my way down in temperatures.
I don't really remember the real settings but from my memory it was like that:
1) Air (~ 40C core)
with Drive Data strengths 7/4 - CPU clocks ~2.8GHZ
2) Single Stage Phasechange ( ~ -15C core )
with Drive Data strengths 7/4 CPU clocks ~2.8GHZ
with Drive Data strengths 7/2 CPU clocks ~3.1GHZ
3) Dry Ice (~ -40C core)
with Drive Data strengths 7/4 CPU clocks nothing - lol
with Drive Data strengths 7/3 CPU clocks ~2.8GHZ
with Drive Data strengths 5/2 CPU clocks ~3.3GHZ
4) LN2
with Drive Data strengths 7/4 - CPU clocks ~2.8GHZ
haven't gotten around to run it yet again - but hopefully I'll get to 3.6GHZ on the dual core X2 this time around with better settings :D
Again I don't reall remember the right settings clocks - but this should help to get an idea...
In the past I had rigged the perfect ram and system settings on air - so that under cold I could only focus on finding the propper vcores and mhz.
Turns out that the ram timings - in particular the drive and data settings can vary greatly under different temps. The settings might only need a slight shift - again in particular the data and drive strength - that can turn a perfect rig into no boot and vice versa. The window is VERY SMALL of good and bad ( crash). The colder it gets then narrower the range gets.
This small range of good and bad - often made me stop early in the quest of combatting the Cbug - espcially when running tube ( dry ice / ln2) your exploration of the ram sttings seems too tedious of a task and I have that feeling more than a few people have run into similar problems like that.
Recently, by pure laziness - or axiousness to find out what the max is before I even know the cpu - I had been prepping my rigs under cold for the first boot and realized that my OCs started to get better and better than other peeps - especially with weeks of CPUs that weren't supposed to be doing too well under cold...
All this and many other experiences helped me to see the value in what Tony had said above. Hopefully Tony can elaborate some more on his findings.
and the board was ?
DFI RDX200 ? :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
sheesh.. ppl still dont know... Atleast some ppl know though..
OK can someone explain what the drive strength numbers relate to on the DFI Expert?
Does it go from 1 being the weakest to 15 being the strongest? Or do they work odds and evens?
Interesting. To change this, you have to fysically change things on the mobo?
could drive/data strength help using water/cold air at all?
I read this in the RDX200 thread a while back too... I thought you extreme Oc'ers all knew this... :O
This was all discussed months ago, but I like that it is coming back into light. I believe the 1-15 settings on the Expert are broken into two groups: 1-7 and 8-15, with the higher numbers being stronger.
so why not use 1 ???
Erm... the flaw in this plan is that you can't boot into the BIOS to change the drive stength! I've been plotting to boot on air, change the BIOS setting, rebuild the mobo for phase and booting again for fun and happiness. Great, until you have to do a CMOS reset to defaults; then you have to rebuild to air etc etc.
So still a PITA then.
you can normally modulate the coldness though surely, e.g. with DI alter the acetone levels to make it warm enough to get into the BIOS.
Hey guys, what resistors and stuff do you have to mod on the Mbo? Tony details and pics man! :D
PS*NF4 Ultra-D here.
You can change this from the bios...:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Nade
Nope....the settings on the expert are 1-8 for 1gb or less of memory and 9-15 for 2gb. Odd numbers signify "weak" settings while the even numbers are "strong" settings. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by freecableguy
@ Mike: I thought I had given you some settings to try already with this cpu???:p: And for those who haven't seen these, here are a couple of pics of the 4600+ which mike is using right now (note the core temps):eek:
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3259/98c4xc1ek.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3008/908tj.jpg
what im confused? i have 2gigs of memory, and a DFI expert. so even numbers are strong? and odd numbers are weak? i don't get that? then what should i put for drive strengths? i have a Vapochill LS for cooling. im guessing 15/4 for drive strengths???Quote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
Here is how expert differs from say the LP Ultra D etc.
On Ultra D we had 8 levels of drive, actually its 4 levels in normal and 4 in weak. This is why on the 704-2bta i changed the wording to help you all understand. on eXpert you have 15 levels, this is corresponding losely with the 15 levels available on the CPU memory controller, the issue is you have to switch resistors in and out with various values to set these levels...no resistor change no drive change..simple as that.
Expert is NOT 9 to 15 for 4 dimms thats not correct, to get 4 dimms at 1T you have to apply massive amounts of drive so this is why 9 to 15 come into play, the fact is you can still use 9 to 15 with 2 dimms and on TCCD this may help you get cas1.5...which btw is a true cas1.5 and not what you see on the ultra D.
So Oskar looks to have given us 1 3 5 7 all weak and 2 4 6 8 all normal drive on eXpert, then he gives us 9 to 15 in normal drive I think with 15 being full on drive with the memory controller working as hard as it can. The issue is Oskar is not telling the whole story to me so i am guessing a little. His weakest drive resistance is around 300ohms and his strongest is around 20 ohms or so, so 1 is 300 and 15 is 20 with various levels in between. Crosstalk with a massive amount of drive will be huge so he must have the traces to the dimms over 4 layers with the power rails on another layer...pretty slick designing ;)
Now I helped ATI do the same thing on Grouper, Halibut and the new Manta reference boards, the fact was ATI test with 3 stage cascades which Oskar has not got so ATI were able to fine tune the weak drive under phase to help get high FSB's. Now if you have issues booting you need to boot warmer then chill the cpu further and clock in windows, Fugger did the same with the 955 he was testing recently as below -68 the board would not boot, clocking in XP was just fine though.
There are ways to mod boards to alter memory controller drive strength and beleive me it can make a HUGE difference to ram overclocking.i will enlighten you all on compensation capacitors another day. ;)
I never said 9-15 was for 4 Dimms only ;) TBH though, nothing above ~DS9 seemed to work for me. Using 2x512 BH5, I couldn't even get the Expert to boot @ any of those drive strengths. I also can confirm that the Expert does in fact run a true CL1.5 as I can't boot at any memory speeds above 220 using that setting...:p:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony
Oh, BTW, Oskar will have a cascade....very soon ;)
Im just trying to enlghten the newer members are steer the older members down the right path, ram overclocking has gone mainstream all of a sudden with everyone wanting in but not many knowing how it all actually works.
BH5 can use level 9 and up for real high clocks, its the same on the new RD580 ati board I have here, issue is TCCD may not lie it as much and i know Infineon hates it so you really do have to play with it.
What would be nice is an infinite level of drive from 0 to 300ohms or so, not 15 steps but hunderds and we could then really fine tune for the dimms we use, even 1 ohm steps would be cool but doing it would probably be a nighmare.
Now i know im going to be asked how to apply a mod to enable POTs to set the drive, maxxracer has already asked and i will work with him to see if he can see any success on his board, after that i will let him post the mod if he chooses.
0 ohms is a lot of drive ;)
though this brings up an interesting point. i saw someone say somewhere that having a board where everythng voltage related is adjustable with pots.. it was probably maxx who said it, but i agree, it's a damn good idea.. maybe have a jumper to switch from bios controlled to manually controlled to increase the market a tad? :p:
Could someone list out the drive strengths for the Ultra D?
AKA, is 1 weak and 8 strong, 2 less weak and 7 less strong???
Interesting. I spent 8-9 hours trying every drive strength combo available on Expert trying to solve cold bug under dice, nothing even came close to working for me. That was the main reason why I got Expert, thought it may help with cold bug more than Ultra. I guess it depends on the severity of the cold bug too. :confused:
Tony, I think that there is something that mighth help the phase guys, with their inability to get into the bios to change the drive strength when it gets cold ;)
I thought dumo and OPB both tried this crap and said it didn't work? I'll order an expert tomorrow if it can REALLY fix cold bug...
If single stage guys are having serious cold-bug issues at HTT lower than 250-270 then this must be some sort of severe case of cold bug. Normally, cold bug affects CPUs at high HTT, around 300 is a good guess. That's why higher multi may often be a saver.
Mikeguava may not be experiencing cold bug because he's running relatively low HTT. I would like to see when he tried (just for kicks) to drop multi and jack up HTT speed to, say 340-350HTT. Let's see If those Drive Strength changes work then...
On my Ultra-D, messing with Drive and Data Strength does not help on my phase change cooled system. My 3700+ will always freeze (even with multi-tweak) above 330HTT and it's useless on DI. Opteron I have here (naked, -24C in BIOS) is much better. It's good for some serious HTT speeds (>380HTT) but only with multi-tweak running. Without it, it will not load Windows at above 345HTT. Even with 1.78vcore and Weak Strenghts... I've been messing with those 2 CPUs for so long that you have no idea :D
Maybe it helps others... I hope it does :)
signed
What about DRAM Data Drive Strength? I have level 1, 2 and 3. Which corresponds to weak and strong, and how much does this setting matter?
Cheers!
Kenny
that is a good find...........Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
it would be good to see what high HTT does as well for these tweaks....if you get around to doing so it would be good to see.....
Doesn't matter what HTT he's running...it's the fact that the cpu is able to boot @ -100C core temps. That in itself is an accomplishment. I'd estimate that 99% of the x2's can't even come close to that boot temp. To this day, the only x2's I've ever heard of which can boot @ -100C+ temps are my two 4600+'s - This is one of them, and the other was the WR X2 of OPB's......;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
I'm just going to go out and repeat what a few other members have been asking (please don't hurt me)...
Can someone make up a little list for the drive strengths for each of the drive strength settings in the Ultra-D? It would be interesting to know what these little numbers I'm messing with mean.
just flash to 704BTA bios and it will all be there ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnbns
Ok...here's the Cliff's Notes for Drive Strength and Data Strength:Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnbns
Drive strength is numbered in ascending order meaning that 1 will be the least taxing on a memory controller. Depending on which board you're using, the highest Driving Strength possible is 8 or 15. Generally, unless you're running 4 Dimms or 2GB Kits, a max driving strength of 8 is sufficient. The reasoning behind lowering drive strength to defeat the cold-bug is that the lower you set it, the less work the memory controller on the cpu has to do.....
Data strength, in short, deals with the % of errors allowable in certain calculations. Originally, Oskar had the setting of "4" available in the first bios for the ultra/sli/sli-dr. But now the highest available on those boards is "3". When you set a higher Data Strength, you're telling your cpu that accurate results are a MUST and therefore your cpu will have to work harder to acheive them. The higher the Data Strength, the better/faster the benchmark. But remember, it's not always ideal to set a high data strength for all cpu's as some can't handle the load. FX57's should usually be run with a drive strength of 8 and a data strength of 3 (or 4 in certain cases).
Well, what if your using the newer beta60 bios's? I prefer it over 704-2bta.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
Plus that bios is not the end all for ultra d bios's. Sooner or later a new non-beta bios will show for this board. Will it use Tony's way of doing things, or will it be the standard stuff from Oskar? :stick:
That's why a nice neat list would be very much appreciated... :slobber:
Edit: Thanks s7e9h3n...
One more thing, what are they set to at auto???
i think s7's explanation above makes perfect sense for me and i just learnt something new today about those damn percentages :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Plywood99
since i'm running my RAM on 8/4 i guess i'd probably be able to improve the MHz a little if i needed too :D
I wouldnt get your hopes up lol. I can see it might help a little if your CPU is just on the edge of cold bug temps, but there is no way Expert is going to "fix" a cold bug CPU.Quote:
Originally Posted by afireinside
One of the reasons why we set these timings in bios is because no one really knows what "auto" is defaulting to (even Oskar :p: ) Although I must admit to being lazy and leaving data strength on auto every so often......Quote:
Originally Posted by Plywood99
Would it be safe to say Opties and dual opties can handle a strong data strength since they are premium chips???
here is what 704-2BTA looks like and meaning of themQuote:
Originally Posted by mcnbns
drive strength
weak 1 = level 1
normal 1 = level 2
weak 2 = level 3
normal 2 = level 4
weak 3 = level 5
normal 3 = level 6
weak 4 = level 7
normal 4 = level 8
^^
Thanks Dinos22. So for regular bios 1 weakest and 8 strongest....
What about the LN2 guys :D What board you running on? Can't wait to take control over drive and data strengths with pot...Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
When running a 955 myself under cold I ran into obvious memory problems on boards which don't allow too much ram tweaking and thought back about your post in the RDX thread - wishing I had similar controls on the Intel front...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony
Looking fowar to learn about compensation capacitors one bright day :-)
Going to give it a go again tonight on LN2 with the CPU - hopefully this time hte clocks will match the temps...
what can i say... seems unbelievable - for me - it was :D
my opteron 170 have coldbug @-27C (freezing in windows).
first opteron freezing was on sli-d 704-2bta with vapochill ls. at 3.15ghz lowest temperature was -26 in bios. everything was fine - i have done some benching - sistem was benchable @3.15ghz (315x10 6/5 divider ~265 2-2-2-5 8/3)
but opteron under DI was like nightmare. 8h testing - and nothing - even not close. system was freezing all the time @-27, @-15, @-10... windows booting was possible @-27C or higher. and thats with mushkin redline hp3200 (UTT)
today i found this topic. i had some dry ice left so i decide to test that... this time with corsair 4400c25 (TCCD). now overclocking was much easier because of 7/2 drive strenghts instead 8/2 or 3.
i tested with 5/2 3/2 etc - and found no difference - but with tccd overclocking under DI was more intresting and successful, less windows freezing...
so - this is my findings about that...
no worriesQuote:
Originally Posted by Plywood99
ok i want to throw a spanner in the works now................why the hell does A64Tweaker continually show Weak Drive strength for 8/4
http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8323/400mhzhtt4nu.jpg
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/7...superpi3zy.jpg
it shows normal for me when i set 8
If that's TCCD, you're better off using weak or "7" anywaysQuote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
i tested most of them and it seems to be fine on either combo 7/-1-2-3-4, 8/-1-2-3-4Quote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
i don't really care atm for 24/7 setup anyone as i'm only sitting on 260MHz way below LE spec but this is an interesting topic for me when i push hardware.....i'm getting a bigass SS soon so it's timely for me to learn more about this topic as I'm sure my dual core Opty will be cold bugged especially considering i only have 9x multiplier to work with.....will probably kick in earlier :(
Now, we all know VTT and Vref =VDD/2, isssue is how many boards can hold this exactly true under load? EMC2 showed us that the Ultra D had vtt issues and i showed with a simple mod to the board you could set VTT hot and gain a few FSB and lower vdimm.
All this talk of DDR1 overclocking got me thinking, AM2 is due real soon and we will be working on DDR2 instead, how many of the same tweaks will be relavent to DDR2 on AMD as were DDR1 tweaks???
finally I can't say much more on resistances, some secrets have to remain secret for a while at least....sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony
Tony,
have you tried the VTT mod on the Expert too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony
KK
any updates?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Opty 146 CACJE 0546. Did not boot at -10C, that's how severe it gets. Now how to work round that? The last one I had, I tried staging the boot and phase power up.... resulting in one dead CPU. Now I have another 146 from the same batch, same performance on air as the last and, I'm betting, same degree of cold bug. So I'm interested in finding a way of making it boot safely and not trashing it. Perhaps the Vapo LS controller will let me try booting at +5C or more; it means that any reboots will take a 30 minute break to warm up.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
Any ideas?
Even if you can tweek the system to boot early you will still have problems when the vapo gets to operating temps.
multi-tweak? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
multiprocessor tweakQuote:
Originally Posted by deff_ins
So if I am running 2 x 1GB I should be running 9-15 on the expert under phase?
sorry, can anyone give me some hints on the multprocessor tweak and how to enable it, and any advice on drive strength levels for the Ultra-D
Thanks a million :)
Kenny
RMB on My Computer > Manage > Device Manager > Computer, I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by K404
Yup, sorry I got it just after I posted. God bless google :)
Cheers!
Kenny
Good info. :toast:
just wanna let everyone knows
9-15 for 4 dimm
1-8 for 2dimm
according to Oskar Wu in Nov. 12, 2005
here in Latvia was very cold some last days. about -25C. so we used cold air to chill down vapochill ls to emulate DI :D lovest temp on vapo lcd was -69, in bios @3.2ghz -35, in windows -33.
so - this time we tested on expert board. most intresting thing is that @-33C - and no coldbug. on sli-d with same conditions coldbug was at -27C :confused:
full test setup:
dfi expert (no coldbug @-33C windows working fine - no OS freezeng)
dfi sli-d (coldbug @-27 windows freezing, windows bootup imposible)
opteron 170 @3.2Ghz 1.62v 3d benchable
mushkin redline hp3200 (drive strenghts: 8/3 on sli-d | 7/4 on expert)
antec tp2 550w
vapochill ls
i have tested diffrenet drive strenghts combinations on sli-d - no change...
so - tell me why on expert cpu has no coldbug @-33 but on sli-d it has?
P.S. sh** my english is lame :(
i read all that thread, im using sli -dr , 2x256mb bh5 what drive strengt then i need to use... ? i hate that damn coldbug :|
hmm... i tried this settings - drive & data strength - but with my FX they wont work. My prob is that i cant get a high HTT, but if i´am using a higher multi i can run spi about 3,55Ghz. So what is limiting my HTT ? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
thanks for some hints ;)
cu
Sounds like a cold-bug to me....what stepping 57? And @ what temps?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron_Vie
it´s a 0531RPMW and i have @idle about -25° and @load about -7° if i use Vcore about 1,65 to 1,67V.
i reached 3,55ghz with multi 15, but i cant go up with the HTT and lower the multi. if i do that, i get a freeze evertime. :mad:
Attachment 42696
cu
Yup...cold-bug it is....CAB2E correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron_Vie
yep stephen, u r right. damn and ok, this baby will find the way to the marketplace and i have to take a look for a new one... lool :D
many thanks for the quick reply buddy ;)
cu
wow Tony! You amaze me :)
I love this forum :)
!!!!
ya.... its all about drive strength .. nice find :toast:
I've been playing around with settings on my bugged 170 and expert now. Want to know what they do? N-O-T-H-I-N-G. This is the biggest load of crap I've seen in a while. You name a combo I've tried it. This will not work.
who said that this is the answer to all problems .....you should know betterQuote:
Originally Posted by afireinside
Well I never said it was a cure, some CPU's will see a gain some will not. fact is we are running CPU's at temperatures that they were not designed to run at and motherboards too for that fact,just because it does not work for you does not mean others will not see a gain.Quote:
Originally Posted by afireinside
All I can say is design of motherboards continues, companies are now factoring in that more are using subzero temps so will will see small gains with each design.
So these companies care about overclockers? seriously? I know that sounds sarcastic, but do we make enough of a difference to their sales?
Does AMD care about cold-bug, do you think?
K
AMD probably loves it. Some people have gone through loads of expensive CPUs to get a good one. It's not a massive boost to their sales by any means but when you have people like me buying 6 CPUs in 6 months trying to get a bug free one they aren't going to complain.Quote:
Originally Posted by K404
Signed for future reference
i think he's talking about ATI & DFI....i know that both of these companies invested in super multistage phase chage boxes for their product testing.... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by K404
What the hell is this all about...definately uncalled for without any reason...:confused: :nono:
Maybe he meant it as "lucky?":confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
Then why didn't he say so?Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaMerc
Ummm...I'm pretty sure that's not what he meant...take a look at the title of his post.......Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaMerc
Yeah it's blatantly easy to see that he needs to learn to be polite
Of course they did! Didn't you know the main draw of the Lan-party series is the glow-in the dark, UV reactive cables and slots? :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by Revv23
Hmmm..that was weird....test..test..test...this post should end up BELOW yours and not above :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Revv23
OK...I guess not :D
my 2 cents:
Thanxs Tony for this informative article on drive strengths. It makes things a lot more clear. Just to be clear, if any European users are still suffering from cold-boot issues after Tony's recommendations, then please feel free to drop me a line at support@dfi-europe.nl and I'll give it a crack from the motherboard end of things. For the North American's you'll have to talk to our guys in San Jose for help.
Do you mean coldbug as in cpu's not running high HTT at subzero (subject of this thread) or coldboot prob as in no boot with 2 sticks of RAM in ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldog14
Cold boot as in stock settings (2 sticks of RAM is one way of putting it). I can't go into OCing issues I'm afraid;) Stone Cold Jimi was having trouble with cold boot even at stock speeds a while ago and I was able to give him a hand. I know that the posters in this thread are refering to problems encountered when the system is OC'd, but I'm certain that there enough people reading this thread who are having issues at stock speeds as well.
you really think they made the lan-party series for people that run thier systems at stock speeds?Quote:
Originally Posted by K404
Actually this whole discussion was not really about booting @ OC'd speeds, per se. It's about how to allow our A64 cpu's to function normally under extreme freezing temperatures. Most 90nm A64 cpu's can't obtain high htt's when subjected to temps below ~-58C....;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldog14
Cold bug usually hits around -15c to -25c windows :( FXs usually go a lot lower, especially with unlocked multis. I haven't found a viable way around it other than more volts and run SP2004 in the background.
Tip of the Day: A good way around the cold bug is to use the stock hsf :DQuote:
Originally Posted by afireinside
BTW, that -15 - -25 estimate is mostly relegated to the s939 Opterons. It seems as if their cold-bug kicks in a bit sooner that the A64/FX's......
Because of the unlocked multi you do not need high HTT like on the opteron.. Would like to see some FX's run over 330HTT at -25 and below.
:fact:<--- my longest and most educated post yet... :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by loc.o
I've tried 300 @ -42 and that's a no-go for sure......But other than that, my cpu doesn't show any signs of a bug (at least down to ~-48C core temp)......Quote:
Originally Posted by loc.o
sorry for ot but:
whats with XS?
my posts are all out of order...