http://www.swiftnets.com/products/Apogee.asp
Printable View
better than the storm!?
ZOMGWOW. let's see some XS testing ^_^
Don't be so sure...Quote:
Originally Posted by moonlightcheese
what was it? links dead
page cannot be displayed
that's why i requested the testing... it doesn't seem like it would outperform the storm at all. that "diamond grid" seems like so many other channel style blocks. it seems unlikely that it would outperform jet impingement. but hey, who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Haha, they pulled the page, good thing i got some pics...
pics of graphs
pics of block
actually, i recall seeing a graph a while ago with the STORM versus the MCW55 on the same die in a C/W versus hydraulic power comparison and it had the diamond pin of the MCW55 beating the storm as it was. I also remember seeing a picture a few years ago of Jason AKA MickeyMouse running an MCW50 on a CPU. There's definitely a lot more to the diamond pin grid than most people give credit. *pokes cathar* wanna shed some light?
BasePlatePD vs FRQuote:
Originally Posted by swiftech
http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/imag...%20vs%20FR.GIF
TR vs FRQuote:
Originally Posted by swiftech
http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/imag...%20vs%20FR.gif
TR vs PDQuote:
Here it is apparent that the Apogee has the lowest thermal resistance at all flow rates and more importantly features a wider performance advantage at "real life" flow rates between .3 and 1.5 GPM.
The above two graphs can then be combined below to illustrate the pressure drop / thermal resistance relationship
http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/imag...%20vs%20PD.gif
TR vs HPQuote:
From the above curve, it can be seen that the Apogee water-block does not necessitate a high pressure pump to be extremely efficient. It yields in fact lower (better) thermal resistance values than the MCW6000 and Storm water-blocks at all pressure drops.
Another way to consider the relationship between the water-block's thermal resistance and the pump capability is to plot the hydraulic resistance, which is literally the work that the pump must do.
http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/imag...%20vs%20HP.gif
Quote:
As in the preceding graph, the Apogee outperforms all previous solutions whether a small aquarium pump or a high pressure industrial pump are used.
It should be added that under certain circumstances, the Storm water-block may perform better than the Apogee water-block. We cite for example earlier generations AMD Athlon XP, MP and Duron processors where the die size is smaller in surface area (100 to 140mm2) than current microprocessors. In such instances, the difference in temperature was found to be 1.4°C at 100 Watts, and at the maximum flow rate allowed by our test equipment (about 3.3 GPM for Apogee, and 2 GPM for Storm). Such test were conducted using the alternate testing procedure described in the link below.
Looks interesting. I shall await a procooling.com review and the review on OC.com
Did BillA do the testing on this before he left Swiftech?
Impressive but I hope I don't need a firehose type pump to get slightly better cooling.
Any word on the cost? Maybe why the Storm block has been seen recently at a reduced price? Although I did nab one for $60 while the gettin was good :D
No, there is no more to diamond pin. The issue is with the testbed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloody_Sorcerer
Independent tests will reveal the truth of the matter.
Wow block releases within months of each other. I bet they jsut don't wanna give their profits to Cathar anymore. THe less they sell of the storm, the less they would have to give up.
Specifically this bit:
I'm guessing that the results described in the above paragraph would've been done on BillA's old small-die testbed (10x10mm). The Storm was better by 1.4°C.Quote:
It should be added that under certain circumstances, the Storm water-block may perform better than the Apogee water-block. We cite for example earlier generations AMD Athlon XP, MP and Duron processors where the die size is smaller in surface area (100 to 140mm2) than current microprocessors. In such instances, the difference in temperature was found to be 1.4°C at 100 Watts, and at the maximum flow rate allowed by our test equipment
Now the results in the graphs were all done on a testbed that does not measure the actual die temperature, but rather the IHS surface temperature. Irregularities in how the waterblock is applying contact between the heat die and the IHS can vastly alter results (by +/- 4C) when measuring at the die instead.
To date, when measuring on-die temps, as opposed to IHS surface temps, I have not been able to reproduce anything that could describe the results presented in the graphs.
Once again, independent testing will reveal all.
[Edit: I am not saying that Swiftech's results are incorrect. I am saying that I have legitimate concerns over their testbed's ability to predict what the actual CPU die temperature will be, and I await independent testing to verify the results shown.]
jet imp. on a diamond pin ;)
Harrr.
I'm sad because I was going to do the same design with a little saw and some thick plastic.
=/
Cathar, you must admit, this WILL be the block to have simply because of the affect on flow versus the storm. anyone with a multi block loop will want this block over the storm.
offtopic a bit:
Any wonder how dangerden is going to go with this? they really need to get a new CPU block out.
No, I don't accept that at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
If you have a multi-block loop, the flow rate differences will be MUCH smaller because with the added blocks, the correspondent effect of the CPU block on the overall system resistance is much lower.
Then again, for those who think that more flow rate is more important than greater performance, then their minds will already be made up.
then people would be using the maze4 instead of a g4/storm or even a tdx... just looking at that design you should know the storm would outperform it.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
But with performance being so close, but yet this new block being less restrictive. and the most common secondary block is most often a maze4 gpu which is low restriction, this would be the more ideal block.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Single block/no ihs: Storm>apogee
single block/with ihs: storm<apogee
mutliple block w/with out IHS: storm<apogee
so yeah storm is still better idealy, but with common multi block set ups, i think the slighlty less effeciency is much offset by lower restriction, that would be much needed when running gpu or sli blocks.
I prefer good data to speculation myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
If this new design was that much better I think we'd have heard of it before ;).
I say we support Cathar all the way. A lot of the design of the new block was inspired by the storm and Cathar. Of course this is just all speculation. I do feel that Swiftech is trying to make a statement that "we can make a block that's better or matches what Cathar can make...and mass produce it at an affordable price."
Nah, this is not about Swiftech vs Cathar at all. We're all good friends and on good terms.
This is primarilly about Swiftech wanting to refresh their bread and butter budget block lineup, being the MCW600x.
As the data states, the Storm beats it handily on the small die setup and there are, or at least I firmly believe this, "issues" with their present large die testbed. Swiftech and I have discussed their large die testbed in the past at length. We have compared notes. Swiftech stands by their large-die testbed. I have not been able to reproduce the results they see with it for other blocks when monitoring the CPU die temperature, as opposed to the IHS surface temperature. Who's right? I can't say. What I can say is that without knowing the actual CPU die temperature, then you can never be truly sure, and so independent testing is required to color in the bigger picture.
The Apogee, at least from what is shown in the captured images, looks to my eye to be a very decent design, and certainly meets Swiftech's needs for a good-to-high performance moderately priced mainstream waterblock, and on that score it's a "win". As to the relative performance at the end of the day, Swiftech is just reporting what they see with their testbed, and that's a perfectly reasonable thing to do for any company.
I personally would've played the cards differently. Given that the Storm is still on the shelves, and that there is some doubt about the performance, even within their own testing (small vs large die), and the Storm is still selling well and the Apogee is an unproven design, I would not have released internal performance results nor would I have dropped the price on the Storm, and I would've just marketed the Apogee as their MCW600x replacement. By the time the independent testers and the marketplace have figured it all out, the stock of left-over Storm blocks would've mostly been sold at their full asking price, and if the Apogee truly performs better according to independent tests, then just discontinue the Storm and publish the internal results. If the Storm is found to be better, then Swiftech wouldn't have to lose any face over the published results. Would've been win-win whichever way it played out.
Just my 2c, since people here are asking about it. I don't understand the actions of the last few weeks myself, but Swiftech is not my company. I have enjoyed working with them though, and I do hope to continue doing so, in whatever capacity that turns out to be from here on.
hmm.. bet if they milled the base off the 6002 it'd help. Milled my 6002a but dont have anything to compare to since I havent run it since I milled it :/
EDIT
Cathar - why not make a testbed that measures DIE temp as well as IHS temp?
You'd need at least 4 temp probes for the IHS (one for each corner, laid into a channel) and probably a probe on each side of the die would be a good idea too... gets complicated quick I guess.
Would it be possible to place a glass substrate around the die (that is shorter than the die) so a laser probe could be aimed at the glass to refract onto the side of the die?
laser probe? you mean one of the infrared ones? i have one of those, but i cant use it to take temperatures THROUGH any kind of object like glass, acrylic etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by STEvil
Looks like an interesting showdown in the near future no doubt. I'm quite intrigued by the name (as I'm sure those who follow pro audio know Apogee, even though the meaning of the word bears no relevance to either subject). Will be interesting to see if Swiftech will try to make a high end silver version to pit against the G5 and DangerDen offerings.
Think @itor has something like that already. I was privalged to see his load tester setup's picture and he actually used dead cpu, copper with same size as typical cpu die attached to heatspreader. And bunch of things on his testbad. I liked his load tester a lot but gave up when I couldn't find dead cpu's IHS for sale anywhere lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by STEvil
wow..gf was over so i didnt go on the forums for a few hours and look what happens.
after talking to niksub and cathar about the Swiftech Intel testbed, I aswell have my reservations about it.
Looking at that design it seems to be an modification of the 600X and 500X series.. some sort of mix between them. While very good designs I higly doubt they will beat the storm in real world operation.
When derek and rob test this block I will make my decisions on it.. until then its no storm killer.
Jinu, if u want I have an IHS from my 3000 venice. 0517 too.. lol. if u want it lmk.
haha, there are lies, damn lies, and statistic. I mean come on, who uses storm with IHS on? removing the IHS alone would drop the temperature by 3 or more C's if you set the waterblock correctly. Using a large die testbed is just stupid but I guess swiftech is trying to lure noobie water cooler in with their fancy graph showing Apogee beating storm. I've tried to read the documentation by Cathar on storm and the idea is just ingenius. I am an engineer student myself and I really appreciate great ideas and step by step engineering instead of reaching into the hat and try to pull something out.
Personally, it reminds me of some of rotor and jaydee's blocks. Some german blocks too as far as looks go. I'm deff not an engineer, but judging from test methods and block design (off of everything I have read from ppl who actually know what they are doing in design of a block), if I were to make an educated guess, I don't think it would out perform the storm, and certianly not my g5 on my setup (and that's what counts). It'll be interesting what independent tests reveal though I have to say, who knows, we may all be suprised....maybe.
I too agree with Cathar that theses recent marketing strategies from Swiftech are weird to say the least.
With the MCW-6000 family waterblocks vs. the Storm, consumers had a clear path to choose from, now it's all speculations.
Also, it's becoming a habit from Swiftech to have these "leaks" of information (i recall another about the Laing DDC - a.k.a MCP-350).
On the other hand, and trying not to be disrespectful to the engineer behind the optimization of the Apogee, it seems a way to use something already available, (has it any bearing on the insolvency rumours?), rather than designing something new (especially now with a CFD expert in the house), and from that point i still give credit to Cathar.
It may well be a way to refresh the product line, and optimize the blocks for the MCP-350 pump (better integration than the MCP-655), but it sure was a swifty way of taking to oblivion BillA's work (Storm included).
My take on the whole thing is that the profit margins on the STORM were too low for mass market company...
SOOOO, why not do a cosmetic refresh on a design which offers low manufacturing costs. Add in some pretty graphs that show the 'new' design beating the best mass-produced block on the market (nevermind that it is your own company producing it) and the sheep will buy it.
I'm with CATHAR here, I'll wait for independant testing data from a sound test-bed.
A hell of a lot more than do without the IHS...Quote:
who uses storm with IHS on?
Its not new.Quote:
Originally Posted by Overconfidence
Just modified, and updated.
http://overclockers.com/articles991/
yeah, i defiently agree, with single cores getting so small, and with the crappy 2 bolt a64 mounting system, there is so much wobble its easy to crack a core. i think my next chip(current mobile didnt have one) i will be taking it off, replacing tim and putting it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marci
I for one have run 2 out of the 3 A64 chips without IHS and both died inexplicably. SO i will be running with IHS for now, as do 90%+ of A64 users.
As i hinted at before, I agree with reckons.. its just a reworked MCW5000
Good thing is it seems to have made the Storm cheaper, will just have to wait and see with the new block and accurate and reliable data.
G
whats IHS?
and yea, Im happy prices went down too :) just got mine in last week and then I read this and was like noooooooo.
BUT, im not that worried, I couldnt care less about flow rate over performance.
And I too think that this is a cheaper block that will give you high performance for a cheaper cost.
Which IMO is a good move, but only if they can play it off ;).
Integrated Heat Spreader or Idiot Handling Shield. It is that metal cap over the CPU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmpy224
Maxxx why did you edit me post? Did I say something?
large-die tests are just as relevant, if not more relevant, than small-die tests. IHS tests matter too, since many users (read: some AMD users and all intel users) run with IHSes. Large die tests matter because... well... have you seen a dualcore die? they're bloody massive...
they should still give die temp and IHS temp, because all that really matters is die temp
Bingo! All Swiftech is measuring is IHS temp, they have no idea the size of the heat element or it's temp. Then there is the IHS > heat element relationship in which the unknow TIM plays a huge factor, again unknown. The TTV is intended for HSF first validation, read; air heat sinks. Secondly, Intel suggests or rather strongly suggests to then validate elsewhere, as in, dont rely on the TTV for your only results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloody_Sorcerer
nikhsub1: So this testing was done pre or post BillA leaving? On a different test bed? And will further test results from Swiftech no longer have the same caliber as the ones when BillA was working there?
Bill used the same testbed that is currently being used i think. I await other tests.
this block was tested on the TTV, as was the storm and 6002 data in the graphs. These tests were also done after BillA left (this block was a prototype when he left).
nik, i was just being anal retentive. u put CPU on a new line. I suppose you pressed enter by accient. so i fixed it.. didnt change the content at all.
Yeah I know you didnt change content which is why I was confused... being AR you won't like the TTV lmao.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
these are already in retail..................
jab-tech
lol
TTV == :shakes: :moon: :gay:
From the picture of the Apogee block, I have to honestly agree the bases are similar to the MC5x ones.
I honestly do not understand HOW the Apogee honestly defeats the Storm
well see if you have a 1" by 1" heating element (the size of apogee base) it makes it pretty easy..
Storm was meant to cool the core, apogee was meant to cool the IHS... very simple.
apogee base is 1 inch square? dammit, its worthless completely. Can't even put a reasonable sized TEC on there.
just a guess based on the 5000 and 6000 series... so dont go flipping out.. lol.
MR, i thought the TTV heater-die is not 1" sq...it's about the same size as a normal intel die, no?
So If die dimensions play a big role,
Do you think that
MP-05 / Nexxxos XP design blocks are more effective then Storm with IHS (p4)?
I think MP-05 is smth. between Storm and Apogee => may adding a nozzle to Apogee decr. temps? As I can see inlet is rigth above the core...
Inlet in apogee is NOT right above the core... at all.
please god, maxx, not nearly that simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
maratus, die dimensions play a role, but not really in the context of this discussion or the test bench that swiftech employs. the doubts of their test bench, which employs an intel ttv instead of the popular copper heater die, basically centers around the fact that the temperature readings that c/w values are based from are unreliable because they vary in connection to the heater element depending on waterblock shape. from what i've read of cathar's posts, certain blocks affect the IHS and TIM joint differently and that results in skewed temp readings across different blocks.
am i understanding right? or is it as simple as maxxracer is saying
so what block would you guys reccomend for a dual core with the ihs intact?
the storm or the apogee?
i'm thinking of getting the swiftech apex kit and according to the shop, if i buy one now then i'll get the storm block, but if i get one in a couple of weeks then i'll get the new apogee. :shrug:
exactly what I want to know. I have a X2 4400.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyr0
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/testsetup-apogee.htm
...at least that's swiftech's claim
they say on a 4400+, the apogee does half a centigrade better than the storm, on an apex kit
edit: of course the temp readings are from the IHS, which everyone frowns upon, so...
I would go for the storm if you are buying now, price has been coming down, it is tried and tested, performs awesomely.
Apogee is new, untested AFAIK apart from Swiftech numbers which seem to have some elements of controvesy surrounding them.
0.5C is well within the margin of error on most ppl's setups, you can often gain that much by tweaking the pressure, improving the spread of TIM, and can gain more by removing the IHS, and once the IHS is removed the Storm is definately better, so i would go with the Storm atm.
G
How can Cathar sell out of something that Swiftech themselves manf? Its about business, i dont care what anyone says. Noobies are cheap and they wont spend $80 on a block, no matter how good it is. Make it look like a storm and chop the price in half.. There you go.. New block that the noobs will buy.. Cmon, plastic barbs, this about counting pennies.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaptCrunch
Bad move on Swiftechs part, from a moral perspective.
Don't really agree with that statement. Anyone that knows Cathar would agree that he holds no ill will toward Swiftech as a result of this move. He's stated just that in several posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltech
There is an involved thread about this over at procooling forums.
clicky
I just bought an apogee... so we'll see how it goes.
The move to put the Apogee in the kit in place of the Storm is pure costs reasons. Apogee is much more economical to produce, and I have a feeling performance will be slightly less than the Storm.
Note the Apogee is replacing the 600x series of blocks which will no longer be made.
yeah, cheaper to make and buy, performance very simaliar, and you will want this block if your running a multi block loop for better flow. i think REAL WORLD this block will beat a storm in most situations. if you have a very strong pump and a single block its another story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plywood99
It's pretty simple to see why this block was made really, I believe it is an improvement, I don't think it's a great improvment, for example, it's like buying a a64 3000, then buying a 3200 (with the reasoning that both will be ran at stock), big wup...not a damn thing to be excited about. This block was made because it's a small improvement (which remains to be tested to see if this actually holds true), it's cheap to make, it's easy to make, they can use their marketing engine to sell alot. Nothing but a bussiness point of view. IMO, 10 percent improvement, 90% cost reduction. The result, a killer price point for a block that will prob be in the top 5 for blocks that someone would want in their system. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it isn't from a business standpoint, ALSO, we should be thankful this block it out, it just drove the price of the storm down. Not to mention ANY competition is good anywhere for us in the end. At the end of the day, anyway u look at it, we win, and if the independent data comes out to be the way swiftech says it is on their page, well then, good for them too. Of course, personally, if it was me, I would drop the extra 10 and get the storm for any loop/pump. whatever combo. Yeah it's more restrictive, but so what, then u have an excuse to get a better pump ;) Sorry, it just bugs me to not have the best, some of you may not feel that way, not a problem. My setup may look expensive, but I assure u, that's purely coincidence, if I could have bought the best for less, I alrdy would have. Also, if I was going to NOT buy a storm, I'd just get a WW, it's STILL the best bang for the buck if your buying brand new.
it depends; are you xtreme or are you just 'reme, cause you cant afford the XT?
Storm G5, G7, easily rape an apogee, and anything else. Its all a matter of how much you're willing to pay. Obviously, swiftech isn't willing to pay for a decent and publically accepted testbed, so they take a lot of :banana::banana::banana::banana: as a result.
I just bought an apogee. Though I think roughly the same thing you do... I would be careful about riding such a hard line.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
Take care to not "think" in a public forum... without facts. ... you may hurt yourself.
i was under the impression that an intel TTV is extremely difficult to acquire, much moreso than a hunk of machined copper. maybe swiftech uses their testbed because they think it produces better results and not because they want to manipulate the market to buy the apogee over the stormQuote:
Originally Posted by Bloody_Sorcerer
From what i have read there are doubts from certain people over the reliability of the TTV when used in this situation, read the procooling thread, specifically the issues that Cathar raises about it.
G
But why would they want to push the Apogee over the Storm? If the Storm performs better and costs a good deal more, then they've got two excellent blocks at two very different price points, and can capture both the regular-Joe and the enthusiast markets. The only way this strategy makes sense is if the Apogee really does outperform the Storm -- and I'm having a very tough time believing that at this point.
<----------confused
Either way... I doubt switching between either block would allow one a higher overclock. Anything past that is probably mute.
Some are speculating that the apogee provides higher profit margin than the storm, accusing swiftech of taking profit over performance.
hence the debate.
aMp, Swiftechs margins on the Apogee are probably much better than on the Storm and they are cheaper so they will sell more of them. From a buisness standpoint it is VERY simple.
snowwie: that is correct, the TTV is very hard to acquire. IIRC the TTV was actually given to them by Intel. Why? I am not sure, but that is what I recal.
I dont know if the Apogee development started before or after the TTV came to Swiftech, but it is likely that they designed a block that performed better on the TTV than the Storm. This is not that difficult. You simply need to create a waterbock that cools the entire IHS more evenly, instead of concentrating on where you should be cooling, the center.
1) Exactly. That is also why the "data" showing the Apogee as the superior block is up front and easily read. Not in a little footnote, like where they mention the Storm performing better in "certain" situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/testsetup-apogee.htm
This is the test that I am concentrating on. That is real world cpu data. I'm sure met by the same conjecture that everyone is throwing at swiftech in other threads.
Not really important. As usual... if performance is +/- 2%, which I'm sure it is... I'll go with looks/price over performance. In which case the apogee is cheaper, and will probably prove to cool my X2 as good or better than a storm.
But the margin on the Apogee wouldn't have to be better if the two blocks were positioned differently. Ford owns Jaguar, and positions Jaguar at the high end because, well, Jaguars are better. The company doesn't discontinue its high-end line because it can sell a lot more Tauruses than XJ8s -- it targets both the mass and high-end markets with different products.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Here, if the Storm outperformed the Apogee (and again, I'm going to think it does until proven otherwise) I can't think of any reason that Swiftech wouldn't just jack the price of the Storm back to where it was, secure in the knowledge that people like us will still shell out the bucks for that extra 2 degrees. If the market's there, why not serve it?
Then again...having a higher end product might make your other products less attractive by comparison. Hmmm. Guess there's no way to know without Swiftech telling us, and that's probably not going to happen.
So who's going to be the first to do a real comparison...?
who says they do? are you saying they should change or fabricate data so it suits whatever their motivations are?Quote:
Originally Posted by aMp
you are right, the performance data that swiftech has made publicly available and prided itself on for years now should not be posted on the product page.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plywood99
edit: just to spell something out because a lot of you guys are saying things which i think are untrue. there is no reason to believe that the data swiftech has presented is the result of an agenda. whether or not it misrepresents comparitive performance is question. but to say it can't be trusted and that swiftech is trying to pull something here is ludacris i think.
Orkan, there is alot we don't know about their tests, we can't conclude anything without 3rd party verification, if you believe their data, I have a bridge to sell you.
Absolutely. I don't think anyone thinks otherwise. I know Swiftech is using data in which they believe in, worked hard on getting, that is not the issue. The issues with the TTV are numerous IMO, and this is the root of the problem. The TTV is NOT intended for testing in the way Swiftech is using it. It is designed for AIR sinks not WB's and no one knows what is happening at the core of the heat source. Anyway, time will tell i guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowwie
Me, believing it... or you DIS-believing it at this point is the exact same thing - NEITHER of us have any data to prove or disprove...Quote:
Originally Posted by fareastgq
so get off your horse... chief.
I don't believe or not believe, just saying you shouldn't make assumptions. Has nothing to do with horses.
Honestly I still have a swiftek mcw5002p block and my budy owns a 6000series one and performance wise the blocks are very comparable and our systems are nearly identical. The storm IMHO is a better performing block down to the t. The new apogee looks like a remilled 5002p internaly (Ive dismantled my block more than a fiew times)
I would not want to buy the apogee over the storm. Too bad im not in the market for a new block but if I were the storm is my choice.
FYI the dimond crap they push is ancient waterblock design that does better and better with better pumps. But the storm will give better performance with less pump power.
Just my ramblngs on the subject.
Old but still usefull.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaguarking11
And the Storm blocks preformance will scale with better pumps as well.
Err, no. And frankly I'm not sure where you draw that from. Like I said above, I'm confused by the whole deal, and I'm waiting for independent testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowwie
you are saying they are pushing the apogee over the storm, and by that i think you mean that swiftech is trying to influence its buyers to buy the apogee instead of the storm. that is what you are saying, no? i'm saying they aren't trying to influence buyers to buy the apogee over the storm, and to think they are just because the test performance data they collect and present publicly leans toward the apogee is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowwie
Hmm, That is pretty much what I'm thinking. Apogee should bring more money to Swiftech's pocket. Top is cast delrin, not machined like the Storm. Huge savings right there. Base is also much easier to fabricate.
Why do you think they are replacing the Storm with the Apogee in their kits? I don't think it is because of performance. Money, money and more money...
but you are implying they are doing it by means of the performance data...gah, forget it, think whatever you guys want
I can make assumptions about my water loop all I like. I have more knowledge about my system than anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by fareastgq
Not sure if I understood that.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowwie
Anyway, I'm saying the data is very "convenient". Allowing them to replace a costlier product with a cheaper one, and convincing people it is better to boot...
Some TTV info for ya, note the highlighted bit. Taken from HERE bottom of page 77.
http://www.anonforums.com/builds/ttv.gif
Hey, what else is XS for if not arcane nitpicky debate? :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by snowwie
I'm not saying they're fabricating anything. To fabricate data in an industry in which even the noob-iest purchasers are genuine hardware enthusiasts would be marketing suicide. I was actually referring to what looks like deliberate targeting of the Storm in their PR literature, just a subjective feeling I get about their intent. Speaking of which, does anybody know if they're going to discontinue the Storm?
AmP, I get what you mean, I agree TBH, why not promote a block that is cheaper, with a better profit margin, It does seem like they are making the block better than what it prob is. Mainly because everyone knows the storm is king, proven with independent testing, now nikhsub1, I agree with you that they are being honest with the data, however, as an analogy, I'll offer this to everyone, If you walked into a suit shop, (and I used to sell them, so I do know what I am talking about) I could sell you 2 suits, one could be total crap and the other could be pure quaility, however they both look cosmetically the same and they are both made of wool, Now, the shop, knowing that the crap item may not be better, will STILL try to make it look as good as the high end suit, they will say, they looks the same, made of the same material, so it must be at least as good, or just a little bit worse, Joe Blow will buy the cheaper one because he thinks they are the same. Joe Blow will listen to the marketing engine and believe that there is little difference in the 2 products. The next guy walks in, I try to sell him the same 2 things, he however is a bit more reserved, he'll ask his friends first who actually have owned both suits to see which one they like better. Then he'll come back and get one. I'm nto saying the new block is crap, I'm sure it isn't, that was just a harsh analogy to get the point across to people, Which one are you going to be folks? Orkan, u may have more knowledge about your system, that's true, but do you really know the test methods of the block in question? does anyone have the block that is qualified to test it yet? Do you know exactly how the TTV works? If u wanna be the one to test it, no problem. My problem is that your putting your full faith in that swiftech data. What do you think that data is there for? It's purely a marketing tool, same as when thermaltake puts fan dba ratings on their fans that everyone knows, CANNOT be correct because they have used it and other fans rated differently, BUT the way they test it, they didn't lie about the data, certianly not, but the test method is questionable.
fareastgq, your suit analogy is cute however, it in no way relates to Swiftech and their blocks or data. The don't have 2 sets of data, the data they do have they believe in. Their data is telling them the Apogee is a better block for the most part. They don't think the Storm is the better block, that is the whole point it's all about them believing in data that inherently has many flaws that Swiftech refuses to acknowledge the fact that there may be an issue with their testbed.
I agree with you, except the part that it doesn't relate to swiftech, It's true they don't have 2 sets of data for the appogee, they do have a set of data for the apogee and the storm though.
Why do some people pretend that companies that want to make more money than they currently do are "evil" or "bad" or even "anti xtremesystems.org"
The singular and only reason for a company to exist is to make profit. Nothing more nothing less. If you don't wanna buy the apogee. then don't buy it. If you don't wanna buy the storm, DON'T BUY IT. You're all acting as if Swiftech has some sort of vendetta against cathar.
Well Swiftech may not be against Cathar (and BillA by the way), but the way they present their case, surely leaves Cathar in a bad position having to defend himself without disclosing much details.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibu
Just imagine they had the answer for all their misery all this time in their own backyard and no one noticed or cared until now, and it even equals the Storm.
What a treasure!