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Anyone has any skinnies on the release date of Thermochill's new line of rads, PA120.x? My watercooling rig is almost ready to go except for the missing rad. I've been holding off on buying other rad for 2 weeks now to complete the setup and to finally press the "ON" button.
Should I be a little bit more patience and wait or take the plunge now and complete the setup with either the HE120.3 or BIX 3? Basically it will be cooling an AMD 4800+ and NV 7800 SLI.
Thermochill had a tooling screwup (machine got out of alignment, went haywire, and did damage to itself) and correspondingly set everything back by about a week.
Last I heard they are on target to start pumping out rads ready for delivery in the next couple of days.
aahhh..."next couple of days". 'Days' I can wait :D Thanks for the followup Cathar.
dang them and their screw ups. i was wanting one ordered this week. AAHHHHHHH.
oh thanks cathar for the update.
Peace
IIRC the last i heard from, Marci Friday (today now at 00:01am where i am) was the latest date they would ship on, but i guess it could slip to beginning of next week, i dunno.
Not long now at any rate.
G
well that sucks.. hope they get them out soon.. I will deffinetly be putting these rads in my custom PC's.
If you need a 120.x that beats the HE120.x then take a look at the XSPC (they are available in the UK, not sure elsewhere ?). And they cost less!
...and so they should. The PA120 will definitely perform better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ_64
well its now saturday. anyone have any new news regarding the shipment of the new rads?
i asked the same a small week ago to marci@over-clock.com and i got this reponse:
http://www.thermochill.com/news3.php
the top of the page sais:
EDIT: 27/9/05 - A fabrication issue has delayed release. New release date is expected to be Oct 4th at the latest.
hoping for them to arrive soon too :)
hehe. You must be checking Thermochill website constantly like I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by freak22
yes checking it all the time. GRRR i hate waiting. rad is all i need to complete my system.
Two more days.. Btw, does anyone have an idea on how well these radiators would perform?
I do, but you probably don't want to hear it from me.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowing
Do you mean technical, or realistically? :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Can you somehow put it into terms compared to a 302-2 core?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
yes i want to hear it from you cathar!
i want the truth and nothing but the truth. ( and yes i can handle the truth) :)
I want the technical side cathar :)
Well it is now 10/4. Still no news of PA120 release.
Well it's the 5th now, any new ETA anyone?Quote:
EDIT: 27/9/05 - A fabrication issue has delayed release. New release date is expected to be Oct 4th at the latest
G
just read Marci's post on procooling:
Cant edit my post for some reason, says it's too short :confused:Quote:
Sorry guys - another tooling prob - endtanks misaligning every 11th tank... :(
G
hmz
this prolly means there is no stock at all yet either?
Stew,
the natives are getting restless for your opinion on these radiators...
does anyone have a picture of the PA120.2 or PA120.3 rads?
Quote:
Originally Posted by freak22
OHHH cathar. where are you? still waiting on your opinion pleaseeeeeeeee
0.o its past a week today hasnt it?
hmmm im still waiting, I thought Its worth waiting rather than going straight to a BIX 2...well..the pa's are going to be the best rads out right ?
From what I read regarding them they should be very good. Should beat out the rads now out from HWLabs & Thermochill and others except possibly the new Swifty 120.2. But best?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemmingzappa
Need to wait and see how they compare to the next gen HWLabs rads, Swifty's new 120.2 & some of the larger cores before we can know that.
Although they'll beat the cores for sure where noise is the issue, not a likely thing on the cooling side when compared to cores like a Weaponized Monster core & shrouds. Really the new PA 120.3 will be the one to compare to the Monster core though.
Should be VERY interesting to see the comparison of the new Swifty 120.2 designed by Bill Adams vs PA120.2 designed by Cathar & Marci vs HWLabs next gen 120.2 rads. I look forward to seeing which of them is the king of cool.....
Though I'll prolly buy the 120.3 that performs best in cooling. If they can come close to the Monster core, or beat it, I'll be happy to have the lower nosie.
The only radiators I have not comparitive information on the PA120 series against is the "Next-Gen" HWLabs radiators, purely because they don't exist. Have directly tested the Swiftech rads.
Until HWLabs release their next-gen rads, the "performance crown" for fan powers up to 110cfm will rest firmly in the UK.
Have spent some money upgrading my measurement testbed here though and will re-assess as time permits, but am fairly confident in my existing measurements.
Cathar, if you dont mind my asking, how do the swifty's compare to the PA series with low flow fans such as the nexus' (e.g. 90% of the performance, 50% etc)? I understand that the PA's are the best and i appreciate your contributions to water cooling but the PA series is gonna be expensive in the US. Right now a thermochill 120.2 is ~$100 while a swifty is ~$40. Thats a pretty big jump in price for what I'm guessing is probably not an enormous jump in performance. I have no issue with supporting whoever produces the best gear but when that gear is over twice as much and the closest gear performs 90% as good im gonna go with the less expensive kit. Just wondering about this, especially since im gonna build an external rad box soon with two 120.2 style cores.
Have you tested vs a Weapon Monster core & shourd, or do you refer just to the Swifty 120.2 & present HWLabs rads? If you have tested a Monster Core, what was the performance differance between teh PA120.3 & the Monster core?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
I'd also like to know how well you found the Swifty 120.2 to perform, perhaps you could offer a comparison to the present 120.2 Thermochill or BIX 120.2?
I also read a post by Marci @ Pro Cooling a bit ago, seems there is a further problem with alinement of part of the tanks produced, every 11th one does not line up right.
Hope this does not take long for him to figure out, has to get a bit under ones skin after a bit. I know It'd be driving me crazy about now......LOL, but that might not take as long with me....could in fact be a rather short trip! :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by kemist
I agree, price is definetly a factor for me.
First off, from a comparitive point of view, I heavily focus on performance per opening area per fannage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig
Have not tested against a Monster Core, and that's not really my interest. I have enough information from various sources comparing the fin aspect ratios and radiator style of the Monster Core to other PC radiators, and the "heater-core" style design does stack up very favorably, which on an equal facial area basis, a "heater-core" design that the Monster-Core radiators use is breathing right down the neck of the better PC radiators (PA120 excluded). The differences between a "heater-core" design and the better existing PC radiators are within a few percent.
The Monster Core is a huge 2 x 2 fanned thing. I already said above that it'll perform better than a PA120.3, and I know that without even having to test it based upon fairly obvious extrapolation of performance per unit area, and that it is even larger than 24x24cm in facial area. Given the characteristics of the "heater-core" style design, and that it has an extra fan, it's really an apples to oranges comparison. Does something with close to 50% more facial surface area and 33% more fannage perform better than something else? Well sure it will.
Depends on the fannage. In the 50-100cfm range there's not a lot of difference between the Swifty QP's, the BIP's and the DTek Pro 120 (which is effectively a cut-down "heater-core" of the Weapon Core style). The QP's hold the lead, but by a small margin (no more than 2%). The older HE120's come good above 100cfm, or when coupled with push-pull fans, but at lesser single-fan powers they fall behind by an increasing amount as fan power is lessened, being up to 20% behind the thin/low-fpi cores when getting down to 20-30cfm fannage levels. The HE120's and the BIX's represent yester-year thinking on fan powers, and IMO both need to be retired.Quote:
I'd also like to know how well you found the Swifty 120.2 to perform, perhaps you could offer a comparison to the present 120.2 Thermochill or BIX 120.2?
Still though, if you're willing to put fans in push-pull and run them at fairly high speeds (>80cfm effectively) the old HE120 series do come very good and offer unmatched cooling performance within the 120.x form-factor. The newer PA120's will run with the HE120's up to 100cfm in push-pull (roughly speaking) and above that the HE120's will run away with the show. It's a lot of noise though.
A large part of the problem with designing radiators is picking a point to optimise around. As I stated above, for me and the larger market I believe that to be 120.1, 160.1, or 120.2, with 120.3 being an extension of the 120.2 optimisation level. If you're interested in highest end performance, then space can't be a concern and so go out and build yourself a radiator box and stick a car radiator into it.
Price is always an important factor. Worth of a performance increase is up to an end-user. I can't make that value judgement for anyone else but myself. Thermochill are hampered by "higher than third world" production costs, and so are always going to be more expensive. Period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmpy224
In the end, it's down to priorities. In a 120.x form factor the PA120's kick butt with Nexus style fan powers and certainly offering noticably lower water temperatures to anyone who cares to measure correctly. Up to 4C better water temps depending on heat load when comparing a HE120.1 to a PA120.1.
well put cathar
thank you
Hrm, I would deff be interested in a pa160.2, too bad they don't sell those. Forget that piddly small junk. That would prob be the best 2x120 rad on the market IMO.
PA120.3 WILL be available from Monday 10th October
PA120.2 & PA120.1 will be available from Thursday 13th October
Your patience has been appreciated... :)
thanks marci for the update. i just checked the thermochill site and was looking over the info there as well.
once again
thanks
any pics yet?
Hey Marci, glad to hear the tank issue was easy delt with!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marci
I'm looking forward to seeing some comparsions of them with other rads.
Cathar,
Thanks for your responses in posts #33 & 34, a clearer picture.
:toast:
A PA120.3 would be about the same performance as a PA160.2, and about the same size too. There's no real point making a PA160.2, you'd just get a PA120.3 instead, and a PA120.3 would be easier to fit into cases like a CM Stacker or whatever within the drive bay cage.Quote:
Originally Posted by fareastgq
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
so the PA120.3 is a good match for the CM stacker? good thats the case i got and i was hoping it would fit right in it
any chance on dimensions of the PA120.2?
A 120x3 setup would use up, at minimum, 9 of the front bays. Each 120mm uses 3 bays. Add on the top and bottom tanks, and you're looking at using up nearly all of the drive bays.
ouch need 1 drive bay for dvd recorder and 1 one the power switch. can it lay in the bottom of the case?
best case for watercooling is either the ufo cases, PC7077, PC75, V1000 series or V2000 series
UFOs cost a pieload though ;)
any doublewidth > all (except a quad-width... hehehehehehe)
indeed they do cost a pieload... and a boatload.. possibly a planeload too..
HE/PA120.3 can either be mounted across the top or across the base in the Stacker cases.
thanks again marci
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marci
sweeet
birthday is the 9th so after that im going to start buying my wc setup ^_^
not sure if ill get a PA120.2 or 3 but from cathar and the 4c difference he said, I think ill save up for a radiator thats that awesome :).
thanks to you guys for helping me make my radiator choice ^_^
I wasnt even thinking of space, I have a linksys acrylic case and was hoping to somehow mount it on the back of it.
Ill check out the measurements and see if its plausible to fit a PA120.3 on it ^_^.
http://www.thermochill.com/pa1203.php
There. Can I go get drunk now??! (heh - I already did - spent this weekend at Butlins with a few thousand bikers getting well n truly blotto'd with Slade & Dr and the Medics... oo-er)
Will have a full set on the way to Cathar tomorrow for final test results drawing up on the production models rather than be chelping on about prototype results... Begun talks with BillA for some testing last week, will get that underway soon as he gives me the nod...!
So... give it a week or two for proper performance figures.
Will post some better piccies / detail piccies within next hr or so - batteries ran out in the camera...
pld Marci, nice work there :cool:
I'll make sure and order one off you next month when I get payed now ;)
Go on then you rascal :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Marci
G
Nice to see you've made it fatter there :)
Saying that though, 38mm Fan|Shroud|PA120.3|Should|38mm Fan is gonna make my U2-UFO look even more cramped lol :eek:
I just ordered a PA120.3 :)
I have plenty of Papst 4412F/2GL i can use but they are only 55cfm
so i am still wondering what fans would you recommend?
Actually i have a weack pump
I am also getting a new pump (a DC one) and it is hard to figure out between the mp655 (more powerfull?) and the AQX50Z (less heat into the loop)..both are the same price but the shipping for the AQX50Z make it a lot more expensive..
Thanx for yours advices
and ..sorry for my english
Hmm...Certainly interesting looking.
I'm going to be holding my breath for the 120.2's. Thats all that will fit in my current rig.
My biggest issue is price. If I can get a rad that does within a few C of a PA, but at less than $100(ish), thats what would take my money (being a broke college kid and all).
Just my $0.02
-Ghent
PAPST fans will work fine with the PA120.3
MCP655 / DD12-D5 / Laing D5 is recommended pump.
Nothing can be done about price - Volume and Economics dictates (UK Labour & Exhange Rate).
Order placed...
nice to see the price hasnt gone up..
I would haven never thoght to make it thicker, but it DOES make sense.. gotta compensate for lower fpi somehow.
Placed my order this morning. Now for the shroud. Is a PA120 compatible shroud coming soon? But considering the HE shroud is the same width as the PA rad, would I be able to easily force or bend the HE shroud onto the PA rad?
from the looks of it they use the same shroud, but dont quote me on that.
According to http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi its only 55$ ish :-D
unless I made some stupid mistake
they use the same fangrill, so i'd think that the shroud would work...
Erm, $101.78 that should be :stick:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmpy224
85 bucks before tax/shipping
Yeah with shipping the total was $116, not too bad actually, they cost about that from merchants here.
So when will the PA 120.2 be availible? :)
And when will HW Labs enter the stage? :D
two very good questions, one of which marci can answer.. the other, the owner of HWlabs might answer for us..
10-13-05 for PA120.2 and 120.1 barring unforeseen incident...
Hrm... Decisions decisions... Order with the 1/2" ID barbs from Thermochill or shop around to see if I can find 5/8" ID barbs...
Great to hear Marci. Been a little while coming there....
Go have a big drink this weekend. You've got orders to fill and radiators to ship in the meantime. :)
Nice pics marci, thanks, and congrats on the rad, looks like a great piece of work :)
G
And PA120.1 / PA120.2 now released and available!
Call me crazy, but I just bought two PA120.2's. :woot:
I'd like to see a head to head comparison against a 302 core and a pa120.2, I'll drop 100 bucks for a few degrees better :)
I need to have 5 bays though for use, pa160 times 2 would be the same length as a pa120.3?, the core needs to be the same length as a 302 core for my needs. this is in a 7077 case. I guess I'll have to look at the length later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
160 x 2 = 320
120 x 3 = 360
pretty close
Hrm, I'll have to get rid of a bay :(
Good prices! And availability before promised ;)
Now I must try to resist pushing that order button ;) ..and instead wait for the new series of HW Labs radiators and for someone to benchmark them both. I for one will not order anything based solely on rumor before some real benchmarks tick in.
Any words on how HW Labs are doing? :)
I just ordered a PA120.3 from the UK. Does it come with shrouds or do I have to get my own?
Does not come with shroud. I ordered the HE shroud to hopefully make it fit with PA120.3
I don't think it's going to fit in my case with a shroud, unfortunately. Not unless I want to give up 3 bays. It's 5 1/2" deep with shroud, rad and 38mm fans...7" if you go push pull.
peace,
Aielman
Don't sweat it. Performance difference shrouded vs unshrouded is fairly minimal (~2%), or at least that's what I saw with the prototypes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aielman
I found fans pushing to work better than fans pulling, by around 2-4%.
The radiator really does just fine with 25mm thick fans.
Putting 25mm thick fans directly on the radiator in a push mounting is not going to cause any pain at all, and IMO, is about equivalent to having a shroud and the fans in pull-mode.
No kidding...well that's good to know. Thanks Cathar. I was just sitting here looking back and forth between the new 7077b that was delivered today, and measurements for the new PA120.3, and kicking myself for not buying a MM UFO, heh. 3.5" depth for the PA120/25mm fan setup will leave me clearance over the PSU so I don't have to give up the bays up front.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Putting 25mm thick fans directly on the radiator in a push mounting is not going to cause any pain at all, and IMO, is about equivalent to having a shroud and the fans in pull-mode.
I had planned on mounting an lcd from a 6" tv in the top 3 bays, and then mounting some plexi below it, and above the PSU to create a wind tunnel effect in the top of the machine to vent the warm air from the rad out the back. Then mounting a 120mm fan on the plexi to pull warm air from the lower chamber up and out as well.
This might just work if I can figure out how to do it, heh.
Thanks again.
Peace,
Aielman
Great job Marci! and ThermoChill!
Quick question, will the HE120.x series fan mounting templates work for the PA120.x series? I imagine it should, given the PA120.x series is said to be compatible with the Fan Grills and Fan Gaskets. [http://www.thermochill.com/guides.php / http://www.thermochill.com/guides/TCHE120Templates.pdf]
Stew,
any theories on why the fans are working better at pushing rather than pulling on this rad? Seems to be a complete turn around from previous radiators...
when will these be on sale in the USA, I checked danger den but they still don't have them...?
MR, swiftech and corsair kits have been selling with fans pushing on rad, including the swiftech APEX kit, and I don't think it has just been because the manufacturers don't know any better
edit: asetek and innovatek ship their kits with fans pushing on rad too
snowwie, it was widely accepted that pull was more effecient....
Both Derek (Phaestus @ Procooling) and I have observed this on different rads, not just the PA's.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
interesting... you have any idea which characteristics of the rad make it more suitable for push than pull..
im gonna take a wild guess here, but lower airflow resistance rads like push, while high air resistance rads like pull..
Yep they'll work fine. Fan center to fan center measurement is the same.Quote:
Quick question, will the HE120.x series fan mounting templates work for the PA120.x series?
I know that...I'm just saying, by whom?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
The differences between pull and push have always been very minor, ~2% or so by those who have actually measured in the instances where pull was found to be better.
For the PA rads I noticed that push was better, and again by a small margin, ~2%. We're not talking BIG differences here.
I suspect that the reasons for why are two-fold (or perhaps more-fold).
1) The air coming off the fan blades is fairly turbulent. This is perhaps helping out the more open-finned radiators slightly. Perhaps those who measured better performance in pull-mode were noticing that against more densely finned radiators where laminar flow is fairly quickly established once the air enters the fins (ignoring the effects of fin louvring here).
2) The Thermochill radiators have a better default fan stand-off distance from the core, and so the differences between shrouded and unshrouded are fairly small as noted, as well as perhaps evening the score between pull and push modes somewhat?
I'm just reporting what I saw. Again, the differences were not big, and it may be measurement error, but I saw the same phenomena repeated across the various PA prototype cores I have here. Go figure.
Cathar:
I do suppose that makes sense. Number 1 that is. Number 2 is possible, but afaik Rod tested the 2-302 with his shroud and it performed better with pull rather than push. So that kind of puts some evidence against that.
As you mentioned 2% isnt much and really shouldnt effect the user one way or another.. What I mean is that ur average user would never tell the difference between push or pull and should not be concerned with which way to have it. Just mount it in the most convienent way possible.
snowwie: by most everyone that I talk to in the WC'ing community.
I was acknowledging that most watercoolers/hobbyists understand and accept that pull is better....but i'm asking why not the professionals (swiftech, asetek, etc.)? I'm saying that it may be that they are right and we hobbyists are wrong.
now obviously it has been tested many times by many hobbyists that pull works better for heatercores for whatever conditions they are testing under, or so that's how it goes. But no one stopped and said: "hey, you know, pull isn't always better, sometimes push is"
as you just said already in this thread, everyone accepted that pull is ALWAYS better. I just don't think we should be suprised to hear cathar say "hey you know you guys don't have to worry about a bulky shroud and/or pulling, push works fine with this rad"
I'm not surprised. while i'm not a physics major, i can't think of a good reason for why pull would be insanely better than push (with cage blower fans, i can think of reasons...). The fact that the difference is so tiny and immaterial isn't very surprising either.