A64 - 4xDIMMS - 2T - No performace loss?

Calling to all you knowledgeable guys here. :)

I am currently speccing up a new system based around a SD core A64. I am an avid gamer and what with BF2 coming out soon and possibly requiring 2 gig of RAM i am looking at the best way to go about this.

Numerous review sites say that running 4xDIMMS @ 2T rate kills performance.
However reading this thread at Anantech has made me think twice. There are loads of posts there by guys running 2x512 at 2T with little drop in performance at all. However is 4x512 a diff. matter? Any ideas?

The alternative to 4x512 is 2x1024 at lower timings...

What should i go for?

The difference between 1T and 2T is by far not dramatic. Actually, there is little real-world difference.

There was a great write up with benchmarks from users at Anandtech's forums that showed very little performance difference in actual use.

EDIT: :) I should have read your post more clearly, as you pointed out the very same article.

1T vs 2T was just a big marketing ploy. Its definitely not as dramatic as AMD or its chip makers would like you to think. And actually, there have been reports from some 4x512 users that they are running 1T fine. I think it depends really if the motherboard maker is going by proper AMD BIOS standards, which a lot don't..... hence the big Rev.E and X2 support fiasco we are in now with some mobo makers.

Yea the drop in in Sandra - but from Winnie to venice I lost ~200 MB/sec in Sandra however my performance at the same speeds is the same if not a touch faster on the Venice. 2T will give you lower Sandra results but real world the difference is negligible.

Dean

Thanks guys.
Ill probably be going for the DFi ULTRA.
The reason i ask is that i have seen 512mb Twimoss Speed Premium 3200 BH-5 for £37 a DIMM over here in the UK. Bargain!

Having read this review of the 3500s i am well up for 4XDIMMS of this mem!

ps any idea where to buy 3500 speed premium in the US?

*BUMP* Any more views on this, now that its a more respectable time of the day? :D

Well it seems good that people can get 4 x 512MB @ 250 at 2T.

HOWEVER I am still disappointed that AMD's ondie memory controllers are still weakish.

I hope that the Socket M2 CPU's will be better but I'm guessing that the early versions won't move on very far from current day venice/SD's.

I eventually want a system (late 06 - 07 sometime) that will work with 4GB's at good timings say 4-2-2-x @ DDR2 800-1000. By then I hope that memory makers can get modules out that are that good (they probably will). I am afraid that AMD will drop the ball however.

Anyway, can some lucky and over resource'd (finacially and time) post comparisions between 2 x 512 1T and 4 x 512 2T? maybe some VX? or other quality UTT or some BH-5? Eventually the time will come when 1 GB is not enough especially with dual core round the corner.

the 4x interleaving that comes with 4x 512 might offset the performance loss from 2t, although there havent been any specific tests with 4x interleaving compared to 1t performance of 4x512.

Mine runs fine for me. I haven't noticed any performance loss just butter smoothness from never running out of ram in games.

Performance is ok at 2t. I am hoping with an X2 cpu I can run these sticks at 1t but I will have to wait and see.

There are several PC3200 1GB chips that run 2-2-2-5. You should be able to stay at 1T with two of those.

and BF2 really wont need 2gigs. only games i can think off top of my head that actually would use 2 gigs is world of warcraft and eq2.

Heres @3.1V and 2T..tccd and utt :banana::banana::banana::banana:tail...No 1T with 2GB, cpc disable and bank interleaving on...
http://img32.echo.cx/img32/8751/screenshot0418kv.jpg
http://img32.echo.cx/img32/999/screenshot0448ef.jpg

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Originally Posted by ewitte

There are several PC3200 1GB chips that run 2-2-2-5. You should be able to stay at 1T with two of those.

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BUT do any of them do it at 250 (DDR500)? or anything close and keep those type of timings?

DUMO ur a hero :toast:

Now get 4 x UTT and up the speed! :D

I thought the new venice and san diego core cpus could run 1T with all four banks populated. ??

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Originally Posted by LBJGH

I thought the new venice and san diego core cpus could run 1T with all four banks populated. ??

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I think we all did...alas, they don't.

As for hitting 250 with 2GB's...Ballistix can do it, can't it? I know it's not tccd or utt...but if you're springing for more than 2x512, it might be something to consider. Their 1GB sticks clock pretty well from what i've seen.

I still personally think at this point in time peeps are better off with a good 2x512 kit that can hit high speeds over 2gb's that most likely won't, unless of course you are photo/video editting and playing a lot of MMORPG's.

It is of course possible BF2 may run better with it though...IIRC BF1 was one of the first games to choke unless you had a gig, so I wouldn't put it past it's successor to up the ante again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by turtle

I think we all did...alas, they don't.

As for hitting 250 with 2GB's...Ballistix can do it, can't it? I know it's not tccd or utt...but if you're springing for more than 2x512, it might be something to consider. Their 1GB sticks clock pretty well from what i've seen.

I still personally think at this point in time peeps are better off with a good 2x512 kit that can hit high speeds over 2gb's that most likely won't, unless of course you are photo/video editting and playing a lot of MMORPG's.

It is of course possible BF2 may run better with it though...IIRC BF1 was one of the first games to choke unless you had a gig, so I wouldn't put it past it's successor to up the ante again.

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Thanks for the posts so far guys. :)

Yeah. The BF2 demo is out on Friday and many of the forum posts from play testers say that you need 2gig to run it at MAX. I will just wait and see i guess. :)

I have 2x512 ballistix 3200 now. Maybe ill just buy 2 more dimms for my next rig.

I did some 4x512MB UTT stability testing last night... here

My timings and clock are very modest, I'm building up slowly. I'd be happy if I could get it stable at 234x12 with the timings a little tighter but I'll have to get some water to keep the temps where I like them. Note in the screen shot that those are the highest temps I get.

I can tell a nice difference in anything HL2/CS:S related. Everything loads quite a bit faster.

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Originally Posted by wickedld9

I did some 4x512MB UTT stability testing last night... here

My timings and clock are very modest, I'm building up slowly. I'd be happy if I could get it stable at 234x12 with the timings a little tighter but I'll have to get some water to keep the temps where I like them. Note in the screen shot that those are the highest temps I get.

I can tell a nice difference in anything HL2/CS:S related. Everything loads quite a bit faster.

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So that is 4x512 running at 2-2-2-6 2T? :)

In my testing 2t vs 1t = ~1fps in doom3

I wonder what kind of settings can be run off 4x1024MB corsair value select :p:

Cyprio;

I am in the same boat as you.

My second pair of OCZ VX DDR memory should be here tomorrow and my Sandy 4000+ will be in my hot little hands by the end of the week if the planets are all in sync. One big reason for the upgrade is for BF2. BF1942 needed a Gig of ram to make it run smooth, as least for me. BF2 might need 2GB to make it smooth like butter, but the extra ram can't hurt. Windows always seem to be memory hungry.

Currently I run my VX @ 2-2-2-5 1T 220fsb, so adding two more sticks will drop it to 2T for sure.

Curious as to the preformance hit people talk about I forced my mobo to run 2t and ran some benches. SiSoftware memory tests took the biggest hits running 2T. Games on the other hand resulted in little or no preformance hit, less than 3% drop in frame rates. Since my PC is for gaming, I went ahead and grab two more 512MB sticks vs the 2x1GB stick simply for the cost savings. I made the assumption that it would be no worst running (2x512@2T) vs (4x512@2T). I might be wrong, will have to wait and see.

I will let you know how I make out if everything comes in by the end of the week.

DFI NForce4 Ultra
OCZ PowerStream 520W
Winny 3500+ /w XP-90
OCZ VX 3200
74GB Raptor
ATI X850TX
Audigy 2zs

Please post back here with your results testing games. I wanted to do the same thing for months but couldnt decide what to do.

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Originally Posted by The K Man

Cyprio;

I am in the same boat as you.

My second pair of OCZ VX DDR memory should be here tomorrow and my Sandy 4000+ will be in my hot little hands by the end of the week if the planets are all in sync. One big reason for the upgrade is for BF2. BF1942 needed a Gig of ram to make it run smooth, as least for me. BF2 might need 2GB to make it smooth like butter, but the extra ram can't hurt. Windows always seem to be memory hungry.

Currently I run my VX @ 2-2-2-5 1T 220fsb, so adding two more sticks will drop it to 2T for sure.

Curious as to the preformance hit people talk about I forced my mobo to run 2t and ran some benches. SiSoftware memory tests took the biggest hits running 2T. Games on the other hand resulted in little or no preformance hit, less than 3% drop in frame rates. Since my PC is for gaming, I went ahead and grab two more 512MB sticks vs the 2x1GB stick simply for the cost savings. I made the assumption that it would be no worst running (2x512@2T) vs (4x512@2T). I might be wrong, will have to wait and see.

I will let you know how I make out if everything comes in by the end of the week.

DFI NForce4 Ultra
OCZ PowerStream 520W
Winny 3500+ /w XP-90
OCZ VX 3200
74GB Raptor
ATI X850TX
Audigy 2zs

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Cheers m8, much appreciated.

BTW - BARGAIN if you live in the UK
Speed premium 3500 for £40 for 512mb.

http://www.komplett.co.uk/k/ki.asp?sku=308282&cks=PLC


I think i might get my credit card out...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amd3001

Please post back here with your results testing games. I wanted to do the same thing for months but couldnt decide what to do.

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I have the 4x512MB 2t testing done. I'll try to get the 2x512MB 1t done tonight. Here are the tests that I've run:

3Dmark01
3Dmark03
3Dmark05
Aquamark
Doom3 Timedemo1
Commanche 4
CS:S Video Stress Test
Everest R/W/Latency
WinRAR 20MB compression

Please comment if you'd like to see other tests and I'll see what I can do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wickedld9

I have the 4x512MB 2t testing done. I'll try to get the 2x512MB 1t done tonight. Here are the tests that I've run:

3Dmark01
3Dmark03
3Dmark05
Aquamark
Doom3 Timedemo1
Commanche 4
CS:S Video Stress Test
Everest R/W/Latency
WinRAR 20MB compression

Please comment if you'd like to see other tests and I'll see what I can do.

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Cool! I am most interested in real life gaming performance. :)

Boy, you guys are doing better than me. If I try to populate slots 3 and/or 4 on my neo2 Platinum, my machine wont even post, regardless of speed and memory timings.

The system in my sig does run good with only 2x512 though. Super Pi 32M is 25:16, so the San Diego is truly the "Poor mans FX".

Hoot

Here is my system showing 4x512M fast and SuperPI32 stable.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...PIshowCPUZ.jpg

Im now in the voltage lowering phase, dropping each voltage in the system to the lowest it is stable at.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Filter

and BF2 really wont need 2gigs. only games i can think off top of my head that actually would use 2 gigs is world of warcraft and eq2.

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The only way you are going to utilize more than 1Gb is if you run 2 clients of an MMORPG...Lineage 2 is more intensive than either of those 2 and it doesn't need anywhere near 2Gb.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wickedld9

I have the 4x512MB 2t testing done. I'll try to get the 2x512MB 1t done tonight. Here are the tests that I've run:

3Dmark01
3Dmark03
3Dmark05
Aquamark
Doom3 Timedemo1
Commanche 4
CS:S Video Stress Test
Everest R/W/Latency
WinRAR 20MB compression

Please comment if you'd like to see other tests and I'll see what I can do.

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Nice job wickedld9. I would love to see your numbers just as a comparison. My new sandy showed up today, still waiting on the memory.

What I information I do have to share...
Only thing I changed was enabling T2 between tests.
Winny 3500+ (512x2 OCZ VX @ 3.2V 2-2-2-5)

Everest
Read T1 6574 T2 6299
Write T1 2810 T2 2170
Latency T1 40.0ns T2 45.2ns

3Dmark01 T1 26738 T2 26560

Aquamark3 T1 76,750 T2 74,220

BF1942 @ (1600 x 1200 no AA no AF)
T1 Avg FPS 101
T2 Avg FPS 99

Couldn't tell the difference with BF.
Hope to test a few more games later this weekend.

Hmm, seems there's really NOTHING to worry aout 2T in the real world then. That's good news :) Thanks for those figures K Man, very enlightening.

K Man, can u post ur cpu and mem-clocks and ur vidcard plz?

id like to know if ur limited by ur graphics card, cuz esp. 3dmark01 would suffer dramatically from 2T on nforce2 rigs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by P_1

the 4x interleaving that comes with 4x 512 might offset the performance loss from 2t, although there havent been any specific tests with 4x interleaving compared to 1t performance of 4x512.

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I also noticed this.
I'm using 4x512, and was using only 2 of the same rams at 1T. When i put the other 2, I can't confirm, but i think my 3dmark 2001 increased 100 points. If not, i'm sure it didn't decreased.
So the 4x interleaving makes up for 1t bigtime.

If you think about it, it kind off makes sense. With 2t you'll only be able to send a command every 2 cycles, but having 2dimms working on even cycles, and the other 2 on odd cycles, in a optimum ram accessing environment, would make for a virtual 1t.

Don't know if it really acts like this tough...

uuh, isnt interleaving per bank?

-2x256mb (single banked) -> 2 banks -> 2x interleaving
-4x256mb (single banked) -> 4 banks -> 4x interleaving

-2x512mb (double banked) -> 4 banks -> 4x interleaving
-4x512mb (double banked) -> 8 banks -> but still 4x interleaving

... so afaik ur running 4x interleaving with 2x512mb already

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [-Stash-]

Hmm, seems there's really NOTHING to worry aout 2T in the real world then. That's good news :) Thanks for those figures K Man, very enlightening.

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Nope just the drop in Sandra and Everest which calculate bandwidth, real world apps show a slight drop but is a few frames worth worrying over? I'd rather have 2GB of memory installed anyways. 1T is great up till the point your HD starts thrashing!!

Dean

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Originally Posted by dnottis

1T is great up till the point your HD starts thrashing!!

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As anyone playing BF2 will tel you right about now ;)

So now I really have to decide whether I buy 2 more 512MB sticks of Crucial Ballistix PC3200, try and mix and match with 2 sticks of BH-5 KHX PC3000 I have lying around, or flog all of it and get something like Corsair 2GB DDR XMS3200C2PT TwinX, with timings of 2-3-3-6.

Decisions, decisions.

I run 3x256mb sticks in my DFI UT

This is definately faster in games than 2x256 even at 2T timings.

Der_KHAN;

From the time of my last post I have upgraded my memory to 2GB of OCZ VX (4x512) two sticks of 3200 and two sticks of 4000. So far they play well together. Will replace the 3200 with 4000 later this month as the 3200 doesn't like to go much above 210. Using a 180 memory divider so memory is running at about 205 so the 3200 is happy. Replaced my CPU with an AMD64 SD 4000+ running with 12 multi. 240FSB seems to be limit before windows bluescreens. Currently I am running a ATI x850XT @ 560 core / 600 memory. I am very green at AMD overclocking so I might very well have setting in the BIOS out of wack that could be having a negiative results.

Please let me know if I have left anything out.

K Man

Thinking of picking up 1 more 512 stick of gskill to put me up to 1.5 gig after reading this..

One thing i have'nt seen mentioned is dual channel? dont you lose that with 3/4 stick's?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [-Stash-]

As anyone playing BF2 will tel you right about now ;)

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Big improvement going from 1GB to 2GB with Battlefield 2. Maps load faster and there is no ingame studdering (at least for me). With all video setting at High, 4x AA, 1200x960 @ 100Hz bf2.exe chews up 1.82GB of memory according to the task manager in Windows. If you drop down to medium setting the program maxs out at 1GB to 1.1GB. I was playing the demo with only 1GB and my harddrive was getting a workout, plus a lot of studdering at the start of games.
Add another gig (drop to 2T timing) and it plays smooth as butter.

Can anyone recommend some good single sided 2x1GB DDR?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The K Man

Big improvement going from 1GB to 2GB with Battlefield 2. Maps load faster and there is no ingame studdering (at least for me). With all video setting at High, 4x AA, 1200x960 @ 100Hz bf2.exe chews up 1.82GB of memory according to the task manager in Windows. If you drop down to medium setting the program maxs out at 1GB to 1.1GB. I was playing the demo with only 1GB and my harddrive was getting a workout, plus a lot of studdering at the start of games.
Add another gig (drop to 2T timing) and it plays smooth as butter.

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Yup, running 4x512 mushkin redline @ 250 3.2v and bf2 is smooth as silk. But the game crashes to desktop often with my x850xt but my venice/6800U AGP it doesnt CTD too often. :cussing:

Hey,

Ok I have a MSI Neo4 Plat and a winchester 3500.

Right im running 2x512 of this Ocz ram
http://www.ocztechnology.com/product...0_dual_channel

And I wanted to upgrade too another gig or ram. So to be able to run dual channel and 4x512 of that ocz ram on my winchester 3500 all I have to do is go into the bios and set the ram to 2T?

Is there anything else or is that it?

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronin

Hey,

Ok I have a MSI Neo4 Plat and a winchester 3500.

Right im running 2x512 of this Ocz ram
http://www.ocztechnology.com/product...0_dual_channel

And I wanted to upgrade too another gig or ram. So to be able to run dual channel and 4x512 of that ocz ram on my winchester 3500 all I have to do is go into the bios and set the ram to 2T?

Is there anything else or is that it?

Thanks!

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Winchester doesn't have the same memory controller that venice haves, so it's not shure you can run >200MHz on the memories with that cpu.. i've seen a few people (often with dfi nForce4) running >200MHz with winchester, but also i've seen a few people unable to boot.. this is even that we are talking T2...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Filter

and BF2 really wont need 2gigs. only games i can think off top of my head that actually would use 2 gigs is world of warcraft and eq2.

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Sure if you play with the video settings turned down. BF1 alone would hit 700MB of memory on my machine. BF2 can hit 1400MB+ on large maps. 1.5GB is the minimum if you're going to play big maps with high quality settings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The K Man

Please let me know if I have left anything out.

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i think ur results are alright.
ive made a quick comparison between 1T and 2T in 3dmark 01 myself, cuz this is the most ram-dependant 3d benchmark i know (running SD 255x11 VX@1.5-2-2-5, x850xt@pe clocks)

1T 31.183
2T 30.864

so 2T really offers 98.97% of 1T performance :slobber:

but as i said before the mem-controller on nforce2 boards massively looses performance with 2T.
it would be interesting to know if only the latest mem-controller on san diego and venice cores performs that way or if its the same with winchesters, newcastles and clawhamers.