This will be the beast behind my 2 stage cascade system im beginning soon. R22 or Propane for stage 1 and CO2,R404,or R502 for stage 2.
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This will be the beast behind my 2 stage cascade system im beginning soon. R22 or Propane for stage 1 and CO2,R404,or R502 for stage 2.
I think she's a little too big...
The picture of that compressor made by back hurt :p:
You couldn´t find a larger one? :D
Its a beast alright. :)
Could you point out the suction port and discharge port for us? :)
pc ice do you mind telling me what L.R.A. means? is 71 too much :stick: ? Btw you compressor seems a bit BIG lol! that must make an insane ammount of noise but hell, I think it's gonna give you some nice results :toast:
Edit: I just saw that you compresor weight 72 LBS!!!!!!! hahaha don't drop it on the ground :p: Suction is 1/2 and discharge 3/8.
God that thing is HUGE! Just use 1HPs and safe some room/noise/electricity...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cr@sh_D1n3r
LRA = Locked Rotor Amps. That is how much current the motor will draw whne the motor is seized up (broken). Doesn't mean much of anything, actually.
The nomencalture of the model number should indicate horsepower.
****-0075-***. The numbers in the middle indicate horsepower.
0033 = 1/3 hp
correct on what LRA ,stands for. but its meaning is very important that why they reserve a space for it on every motor. the circuit breaker must always be lower than this number, by a safe margin. lets look at this compressor. RLA 5.4 and LRA 31. That tells me that under max charge/load the manufacture recommends the unit not draw more than 5.4 amps. the LRA 31 tells you that is the maxium number of amps the windings can draw if the rotor locks.So the circuit breaker on this circuit needs to carry the 5.4 amps without tripping and should not be over 31 amps. a 30 amp breaker is too close to the LRA and should not be used,A good choice for this compressor is a 15 amp breaker using 14 gauge wire or a 20 amp breaker using 12 gauge wire. a 10 amp breaker on a long wire run might also trip prematurly(too light). Notice that the higher the circuit breaker ,the larger wire size must be used(smaller number).This is to be certian that the wire does not melt before the breaker trips. Each breaker/fuse size has a minium wire size requirement that corasponds with it. WaltQuote:
Originally Posted by herefishy
edit this is for primary circuit protection,if it is a branch circuit the wire size must be able too carry 115% of the LRA.
I want to expand on this a little, you must look at the application to determine if the fuseing is to protect the device or to soley protect the wiring circuit.each application needs to be looked at in its entiry. take this application ,if this comressor was on a 20 amp circuit that would protect the motor ,now lets say he adds a fan to this circuit that draws .5 amps and has a Lra of 4 amps, if this circuit is not seperatly fused or thermally protected, the wire should be able to carry 115% of the LRA so the wire will not melt if the fan becomes locked,the motor would be ruined in this example but the wireto it would not melt.
Good explanation walt. :toast:
So the Locked Rotor Amps is basically on the compressor to tell us what size breaker and wiring to use and nothing more? :)
Yes, along with the run load amps(RLA). A margin must be left above the RLA for the added resistance of the wire run plus since all motor draw many times their RLA for a split second during start-up(iductive load) to close to the RLA will cause circuit to trip at start-up. All circuit breakes have a AIC rating (amps interupt circuit) that allow it to draw many times its rated trip load for short periods so that motors can start with out tripping breaker. the RLA and LRA can be thought of as a minium and maximium circuit limits plus a margin for safty on the upper limit. I would use no less than 20% ,so for a LRA of 31 a 25 amp breaker would be acceptable but no more. Walt
Quote:
Originally Posted by runmc
Here you go.
Yep she does weigh a ton lol. I tried looking up the specs on the copeland website and i tried googling it but i can't find the specs for this compressor anywhere. :( any help would be appreachiated.
herefishy is right its definitly 1/3 hp ,I see if I can find the specs for this model,should have rebuild manual around too.
yea redken thats what I had found too.
thx for answer! I really apreciate it!
NO! You would not want to pay for a 35Amp circuit for this compressor.Quote:
Originally Posted by runmc
RLA = rated load Amperage. The RLA is somewhat indicative of what you would expect the compressor current to be, at the rated voltage, in the rated application. Good greif! A 35Amp circuit for a 1/3hp compressor?
:stick:
NOT!
I couldn't find anything on the web either... but I havbe a 1995 United Refrigeration Catalogue with this compressor's information in it. The compressor is rated R-12 high/medium temperature (from +55F to 0F).
4,900 Btu/H R-12 at 55F evaporator (at 90degF condensing temperature),
1,150 Btu/H R-12 at 0degF evaporator (at 90degF condensing temperature)
Cheers!
OH!
Also, the compressor is rated low temp (0degF to -40degF) R-502, as such:
2,400 Btu/H @ 0degF evaporator (90degF condensing temperature)
440 Btu/H @ -40degF evaporator (90degF condensing temperature)
So, it is a high temp R-12/Low temp R-502 little 1/3 horse compressor.
R404 and R502 are first stage refrigerants, theres no use to have them as 2nd stage. CO2 is a problem with oil, youll have to add some propane to make oil flow.Quote:
Originally Posted by _HL4E_HalfLife_
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefishy
That seems a bit small for a compressor of this size and valve port openings (10mm across). Are you sure the model and serial numbers are the same? Im still looking for some technical specs such as rpm's,run cap mfd,Start cap mfd,relays,etc.
I want everyone to be aware there is a differance between protecting a circuit with the proper size wire and fuseing so it does not get hot and melt and protecting a motor or compressor from overloads.There is also a differance in wiring primary circiuts from branch circuits.There are guides for circuit protection and motor protection in the NEC(national electric code) each circumstance must be looked at induvidually.
The size as absolutly nothing to do with the power...
And the size of that beast is because of the type... a lot of displacement though...
Copeland used the same body size for a number of compressors up to 1/2 hp all they do is bore it out and add bigger pistons and use a bigger motor.
Yep they do these serviceable compressors have alot more displacement than sealed compressors of the same rating do thus for every revolution this compressor makes theres an increased amount of btu's.Quote:
Originally Posted by skate2snow
Quote:
Originally Posted by _HL4E_HalfLife_
Increasing the valve port size will decrease volemtric efficiancy (capacity) of the compression cycle due to re-expansion of compressed gas in the compression chamber.
I will refer to my Copeland Electrical data book for the electrical components for you. Even though the compressor model is not listed in the compressor search section of the Copeland website (because the model number has been superceded, I'm sure), You would likely find the model number and information in the Copeland Electrical Handbook.
Regards,
If you want real power I'd look for a good scroll compressor instead of a semi-hermetic one.
The only scroll's i've seen around here are like 3ton and up thats too big!!. other than that I can pretty much get any compressor up to 1.5hp for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_F
altho this compressor was made in 1987 it has never been used so its just as good as if it was built yesterday. :D
I just had a thought, does anyone know if you can use Acetylene as a refrigerant? I never heard of anyone using this gas before as a refrigerant but as u know most gases can be used as a refrigerant gases.
Acetylene properties here:
http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/acetylene.htm
It also has a very low boiling point seen here:
http://www.c-f-c.com/charts/alkynes.htm
no cant use acetylene as a refrigerant, cant remember why, i think it was because it was way to dangerous.
Because it cannot work with copper tubes,NEVER use acetylene in refrigeration systems.
omg, ya don't do it.
Acetylene is a unstable gas ,it can not be compressed without a stabilizing agent.If my memory is correct its maxium working pressure is 15 psi and standard working pressures are below 7.5 psi. under NO circumstances should it ever be used as a refrigerant.
says the mad man that tried nitrous oxide.Quote:
Originally Posted by pc ice
Heehe dont use that either all it would take is an electrical short and :nono: :caution: :explode2:
How does look reaction between acetylene and copper?
Ok thats out. What about nitrogen?
nothing,if you can condense it
How about methane?
ICE, you used methan once didnt ya? I think he did, but it didn't hold load well.
read the chemical make-up of refrigerants. monochlorodifloroMETHANE,diclorotrifloroMETHANE,ec t,ect.........
propane is 90% methane
Sorry walt but what? Adding substiuant groups (or elements) to molecules totally changes the physical properties of the base molecule.
And what you me propane is 90% methane?
of couse it changes them that why methane is flamable and r22 is not, propane comes either from natural gas or oil, natural gas is mostly methane.
I got that wrong propane is in natural gas along with methane
New pics!! This condenser has a capacity of 20,000 Btu's. The orignal motor for this fan was 220v so i get to get rid of it and put this 115v motor on it.Its a bit stronger than the old 220v motor as well.
Ps. The cap u see in pic 3 is just a point of reference to show the actual size of this condenser.
what voltage is the compressor?
If this is for cascade righ? I'd splice the condenser and use the bottom 1/3 of it or something for air condenser to help subcool the hot gas coming out of the compressor of the 2nd stage.
Do u think I should use this compressor as a first stage or a second stage?
The enormous compressor in your 1st post?
Ok guys I got the specs on this compressor.
the only reason it's so big is because it's a semi-hermetic...
^Correct that also means its it serviceable. Since R502 has been long gone im trying to figure out what would be a good replacement for it. :confused:
UPDATE!!.. Just finished building the evaporator/condenser today and it wasn't easy bending it into a loop as you can see lol. I have also chosen R-402a as a refrigerant for stage one because of its boiling point of -49.2c im anxious to see how low I can get stage one.
The project has been coming along slowly because i've been doing other things lately but feel free to post ur questions,suggestions,etc.
Props & bonus points for using old, unusual equipment. :clap:
:shock2: :shock2: Geesus H christ man!...you must live really close to a substation? :shocked: :shocked:
Explain?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZENNZZO
POWER usage is all I was refering to bro...I was building all last month and if I wasn't testing or evacing down I was tunning one...the bill for the month was 250.00 USD... ;) It would be sweet to have an un-metered lead from a substation...lolQuote:
Originally Posted by _HL4E_HalfLife_
LMAO well the answer to ur question is no I don't heh, but this compressor won't be drawing that much 3.5 to 4.5 amps I would have to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZENNZZO
I think i might have struck gold yesterday at work theres an old A/C thats been sitting in the storage area for about 2 years now and its a wopper its 115v 18000Btu's with a rotary compressor. Its been banged up and scratches on it so im gonna see what I can get it for.This would be wicked to use as my 2nd stage :eek: :slobber:
BTW 18000btu's is as high as you can go before switching over to 220v.
Haha, now thats a score.
Hell yeah ya did...sharing is caring...lol...what else didja score?...Hmmmmm?Quote:
Originally Posted by _HL4E_HalfLife_
How does it go for cap tube? Longer=slower response in load conditions but lower temps. Shorter=quick response in load conditions,not as low a temp in the end. Is this correct? And also how long is too long and how short is too short?
UPDATE!! I did some brazing today for the high side u can see one of the joints I brazed just after the discharge service valve in pic 1, the other joint you can kinda see in pic2 entering the condenser. In case ur wondering about that copper tubing thats wrapped around the compressor,thats used to cool the compressor body and also will prevent liquid return to the compressor. I pressure tested those 2 brazing joints up to 205Psi for about 10 min than drew a vacuum for about 15min and the pressures held, so far no leaks :D
Wow, that compressors tiny :slobber: It looked huge in the first pick.
Using the suction line to cool that compressor is probably going to kill your evap temps.
Regards
John.
Not at all because the cap tube will be brazed onto the big loop first so any gas that hasn't boiled off after it has left the evap loop will boil off in the compressor cooling loop.Quote:
Originally Posted by pythagoras
Ps. Can someone answer my question about the cap tube.
Thats what you want to happen, but its probably not what will happen. It would be great if the heatoutput of the compressor just balanced the heat required to boil of any remaining refrigerent in the suction line.
But what are the odds of that happening? I'll bet you get massive superheat---high suction pressures---high evap temps!
Regards
John.
I bought a needle valve that im gonna use to manually adjust the flow of gas through the compressor cooling loop. and since noone was willing to help me with the cap tube :shakes: i've decided to try something I don't think anyone here has ever tried yet, I call it a 5 stage cap tube selector..thats all im gonna say about it for now ill post pics when its complete.Quote:
Originally Posted by pythagoras
BIG UPDATE!!
Picked up a liquid line filter drier and a sight glass. I also built my cap tube selector in the shop where i work today. In pic3 there are 5 different lenghts of cap tube starting from the left is the shortest one at 15 inches than 20",30",40" and finally 50 inches. Connected up the filter drier and the sight glass to the selector and mounted the selector in place.Attached the 5 cap tubes to the other ends of the needle valves shortest starting on the left again. I drew a bit of a vacuum to see if it would hold and I could hear air leaking in around the valve fittings (peices of s-h-i-t) so I whipped up some JB quik weld and gobbed up the fittings which you can see in the last pic and am gonna let it harden overnight. Tomorrow im gonna braze the 5 cap tubes into the loop and and recheck for leaks.
Did you put the flare fittings together w/ JB weld or did you really just gob in on the flare nut?
I just put it around the fittings. JB weld is great for sealing leaks it gets rock hard,my boss where I work has used it many times for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZENNZZO
interesting... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by _HL4E_HalfLife_
compression fittings like those on the needle valves are not used in refrigeration because they leak and they can blow off .Since the tube slides into the fitting they can be brazed,you must dis-assemble the valve first so the heat dosn't ruin it.just braze the tube into the valve,throw the nuts and compresson rings away.Quote:
Originally Posted by _HL4E_HalfLife_
i've seen people use hand adjustable expansion valves. i think that would be perfect for your application.
I have thought about brazing the valves but the valves are made of brass I think won't that be a problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
you can braze them using 15% or higher silver rod and flux.be sure to dis-asamble them. they may even leak around the valve stem since these are not designed for hvac/r use. But I think you can tighten the packing nut enough so they won't leak,but no gaurentees.
Keep in mind plumbing parts are not refrigeration parts, you will never find a refrigeration part that uses compression rings, they are either braze in or flare.Places lke lowes and home depot do not sell any refrigeration parts .
Silver rod?? is that just another saying for silfoss? if so thats what i've been using to braze the copper joints refrigeration grade silfoss.Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
I've been getting some of the parts such as the valves at home hardware.
I use a rod made by victor called "silverflow" it contains no silver,its a phos-copper rod it is for cu to cu use.you have to look at the breakdown of elements listed on the package. They call is silverflow because they want you to think it flow like silver rod. they work well on cu but have a higher melting point.They do not work on brass.
the point is just because a rod has "silver" in its name it may not have any in the rod.
UPDATE!!
I scraped using those brass needle valves for these (pic1&2) its not pretty but these valves were built for refrigeration. :D
Yeah they are...alot better than plumbing valves and JB Weld... :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by _HL4E_HalfLife_
You bet they are but i had to replace 1 of them because i couldn't get the dam thing leak free at the brazing joint since its brass... :upset: so replaced it with one that has a flare fitting on it and as i type this up right now the whole selector peice is sitting in a 30hg vacuum till tomorrow afternoon when i get off work ill put it under a real stress test for a few hours of about 300Psi if it can hold that without leaking than it never will :D.
edited by runmc for language
just make sure to put some loops in the feed to is so vibration won't get ya...Quote:
Originally Posted by _HL4E_HalfLife_
What vibration?? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by ZENNZZO
Well today I finished brazing its a complete cycle now :p: im too tired to take some pics tonight but i will tomorrow. My only remaining problem is the flare nuts are leaking no matter how tight i make them tomorrow im gonna try smoothing the flare with some 1000grit sandpaper that should fix any leaks.I also removed the MO from the compressor and replaces it with POE oil for the R402A. I've been using a special freon to clean the insides of the copper tubing after i braze it i dought any of you have ever used this gas before since it hasn't been made for 20+ years now its R11 this freon was designed for cleaning systems such as after a burnout has occured. You won't believe what came out of my condensor when i used this R11, old oil and god knows what else im gonna flush R11 through my system again before i charge it and run it. My workplace has a big 100Kg barrel of this stuff thats been sitting around for many years:D. R11 has a boiling point of 23.7c
Heres the pics i promised.Today i sanded the flares that were leaking and i managed to get them all leak free after several hours for fine tuning :woot: :rocker: :banana3:
Quote:
Originally Posted by _HL4E_HalfLife_
:slobber: Very Very nice work!
Once this is done you gotta get an oven...
I mean prescott.
Thx esdee
noob-Thats what im saving up for, im switching over from 478 to LGA775 so i need the works, ill be getting a 3.6E0
Today i've just been vacuuming it out and using R22 to help remove moisture.
Either today or monday im gonna get some more R11 and flush out the whole cycle removing any metal shavings,brazing remains (what i call flakes) and anything else thats still in the copper tubing. After that im gonna vacuum it out 1 or 2 more times than im gonna charge it with R402A and fire it up and test the system on each cap tube and ill post initial results for each one.
She's a looker, she is. :toast:
lol huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_F
Today I flushed out the whole system with some more R11 and I added some more POE oil up to the correct level and since i had the front of the compressor off I took a pic so u can see what it looks inside, only took one pic tho but u can see the 2 rods. Tomorrow shes common alive. :D :slobber: :toast: :clap: :banana:
you might check that seal again, just clean it of and put some poe oil onto it and put it back together. the oil is to stay the seal soft so it doesn't crack and to avoid leaks:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jort
No worries i checked it and its not leaking.
Ok after some moisture problems i managed to get the system up and running but ill still need to replace the liquid line filter drier. But i've hit a snag, on the longest cap tube setting (50") i can't get the temp to go any lower than 5.3F what could be limiting this? On that setting my pressures were 15/175Psi and the compressor was drawing about 2.5 to 3amps.I have the condenser motor on a dimmer switch to control its speed and to get down to 5.3F the motor was doing maybe 200...250Rpms out of a max of 1550 any higher than 250 and my temps went up.
My guesses are that the compressor is simply too small for this first stage being that the condenser was built for 18000btu capacity and all. Any help on this would be appreachiated.
erm..............HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
Quote:
Originally Posted by _HL4E_HalfLife_
is it just me or is 50" of cap tube really short...
i used 10ft (.028") on my last propane system.
Is your suction line frozen over?
it might not be...remember he wrapped it around the shell of the compressor?Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
STOP , you can't put a motor on a dimmer switch to control speed you will burn it up.!!!!
also those motors get hot wrapping the suction line aroud the compressor is adding to much load
the best way to protect the compressor without adding load is to make a big u bend in the suction line or just get an accumulator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
O yes you can I have been doing it for the past 10 years and i havn't had a single dimmer switch die because of it.
Even if the cap tube is short I still should be getting lower temps than -15c!! Look at a window A/C there cap tubes are generally between 15" and 25" long and when there converted in to chillers were seeing temps as low as -35c.
I got this working A/C yesterday for 20 bucks ....canadian :D,Maybe I should use this compressor for my stage one instead and use the semi for stage 2?
Quote:
Originally Posted by _HL4E_HalfLife_
Its not the dimmer switch :stick: , you can't slow a ac motor down buy just reducing the voltage like a dc motor :rolleyes: . you will ruin your motor.!!!!! :nono:
AC dimmer switches dont work that way Walt. They dont reduce the voltage they switch the current off and on at variable rates. They have a rheostat conected to a triac. The rheostat controls how much time the triac is in the off and on position, not sure how healthy this is for a compressor though.Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
I still think the real problem is the suction line coiled around the compressor. It should be easy to check if that is the case.
Regards
John.