So you want a Venice. Think about the price vs. winchester

some dude got a good stepping 3000+ winny off ebay for $100. OEM but still thats one heck of a deal. Retail winnies should be about $120. Now when Venice first becomes in stock, I wouldnt be supprised if it was twice that or $240 for a 3000+ retail example with higher speeds of course costing an arm. It may be a month before a 3000+ Venice settles down to $180 but then winnies will be much cheaper $100-120 or so. Is it worth paying $60-100+ or 50-100% more for a 3000+ Venice instead of a 3000+ winny? We dont yet know how well the speed binned 3000+ may do but weve seen in the 2.9GHz for the 3800+ examples. I doubt the 3000+ will clock quite as well as the 3800+ simply cause its not as good silcon. Lets say 2.6 to 2.7 is relistic. This would not help those with good winchesters but itll help most CBBID guys and those with really weak winny ondie controllers. My winny does 289x9 for 3dmarking with 2x256mb and 262x9 with 2x512. I could just run it at 305x8=2.44 with ram on 166 divider running at 244MHz for 24/7 gaming. I know with Venice, I am likley to be able to run like 289x9 1:1 if the ram itself can handle that. Yes I do like Venice and am looking forward to it but I never realized how cheap winnies have gotten on ebay!

I don't see why it would be double the price
To the regular consumer it would mean no difference whether it was a winchester or venice
The only way I see the venice being alot more than the winchester is if there is only a limited supply of venice chips being released

har har! Geforce strikes again with one of his "theories". ;)

As long as something isn't much more than 500$ it's not a bad price. (But if there are cheaper alternatives I'll always go with those)

What about the san diegos? I've heard a few 'theories' that those should be even better than venice. Not only should they basically OC the same if not perhaps better because AMD pushing for people to buy the more expensive chip but has 1mb L2 cache as well.........Don't know........either way for someone like me still on socket-a XP-M the winchester would still be one helluva deal so it might be worth it for someone like me just to go and spend the little extra for san diego or venice depending on price. For owners of a winnie I don't think it'd be that much worth it to upgrade unless they could sell their previous chip for a decent price.

Meh, I need to see if DFI Nforce3 actually winds up coming out within the month before I start thinking about the CPU :p

Does that mean that you're going to buy all the remaining Winchesters so the rest of us can finally buy some Venices? Wow, thanks! ;)

well $100 for a winny is not enough to make me wanna sell it, I want $130 at least and will pay no more than $180 for a 3000+ Venice. $50 to upgrade from 3000+ winny to 3000+ Venice or am I asking too much for winny, too little for venice?

Current 3000+ Winchester PIB price - $146

Current 3000+ Venice PIB price - $167 (you can order this part *right now* with aprox 2 weeks wait for order processing/delivery)

that's $21 man...not what I'd consider a grossly inflated price...I agree that *some* retailers may try to price-gouge when these chips initially become readily available...they may, or they may not...just remember we're not locked into ordering from a predetermined list of 4 or 5 online retailers...there's lots of other places online to order computer parts, places that don't cater to or even consider the OC community, or the anticipation behind these processors...

Look around pg 19 or so of the Venice Watchgroup thread for the info I've posted about ordering these chips if interested

To be one of the first to have it, I'm more than willing to pay the premium. My current Winnie can't oc for :banana:. Hopefully a Venice will take me into the 3GHz range 24/7 with some phase change on it.

Yeah, think about the time when Winchesters came out, they were twice the price of a NewCastle... oh, wait a second, they weren't that expensive... ehm when I come to think about it, they used to cost EXACTLY the same or within a 5% margin (most shops had both cores listed as one so you just had to call them and tell them what you want).

I see no reason why the Venice would cost such a fortune....

There is No way a 3000+ in Venice core is going to be double of that from a Winny core. Take a look at the trend from AMD since 99.. The Thunderbird was actually CHEAPER when it deputed.. The only time it was more expensive when it was on a SLOT A. Then the Thunderbird to Pally stepping, the Pally wasnt anymore expensive... Trends are trends, its not going to change all of a sudden because of Venice.

Besides, why spend $$ now on a winny when you can have a better updated core, SSE3 AND lower voltage? These things will clock nicely.

Geforce, maybe you should spend more time actually building a better system, esp a video card, then to come up with this non-sense?

$100 for a winny(on ebay) or near $200 for a Venice.......

Why would it be double the price? Just cos we know that they overclock good doesn't mean that other people who buy regular chips (not for overclocking) will have to pay double just because it can overclock better. It'll most defintely cost more because of it's newer technology, but not a great deal more. It's just commonsense.

so the real question is how many people here are gana trust ebay for a good chip
NOT ME
just because one person got a good deal on ebay and got a good stepping dosnt mean that every one is gana get a good deal nore a good chip in the long run your pretty much screwed as you cant even send it back to AMD if it is broke because most of the winnies on ebay are OEM and yes ive checked

im' with you there.. i don't trust ebay for CPU's. Most likely fake or borked. Nice name btw... you won on the weekend!

I wouldn't generally trust Ebay for buying anything...it's nice and all that it's out there, but too many people out to screw you

With the price difference between OEM and PIB sitting around $5-$10 there's no good reason not to buy a boxed processor and get one of the world's cheapest 3 year warranties

Gforce, Quit comparing retail to ebay. Its not the same.

to the avg person buying these chips ...ie non overclockers a 3000+ winnie is the same as a 3000+ venice ....as if AMD are going to charge double the price for what is to the majority of users the SAME processor. there will be a 10-15% premium at most for a month or two.

ROFL sorry i just had to chime in because this thread is hilarious.

best thread for a while :D
now how many facts are in this thread? lets play spot the fact.
i see one! no, wait, thats nothing... :stick:

i think it will be the same as when winnies came out, retailers rather than wholesalers will charge around a 10% premium, however just for you geforce, a retail winnie 3000 here in the UK is about £110, which if you do the math works out around $220 so your guestimate of $240 wouldnt really make much difference here in the UK :p:

Ive said it once to ya and ill say it again... for some of us its just NOT about the money. Venice is more expensive for a reason. In addition its not THAT much more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mouawad

to the avg person buying these chips ...ie non overclockers a 3000+ winnie is the same as a 3000+ venice ....as if AMD are going to charge double the price for what is to the majority of users the SAME processor. there will be a 10-15% premium at most for a month or two.

ROFL sorry i just had to chime in because this thread is hilarious.

---

Agreed.

In addition, comparing an eBay chip to a brand new is simply impossible.

GF4200, You've been hyping the Venice (based on nothing remotely factual) for the last month and now you go the direct opposite way... Are you bored or what?

i think thats a little harsh Za.Gosu, everyones entitles to thier opinion however outragous it may seem, its just up to us to put them right / point out the facts

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Mofo

Besides, why spend $$ now on a winny when you can have a better updated core, SSE3 AND lower voltage? These things will clock nicely.

Geforce, maybe you should spend more time actually building a better system, esp a video card, then to come up with this non-sense?

---

:clap:

Like Nubis I'm on a XP-M @ 2.6 day to day & 2.78 when I was benching it.

Now for me to change over that means a new MB and several other items as well.

Now just why in the world would I not spend a bit extra on the chip so long as I HAVE to spend on MB and other items to get the most I can from whatever chip I buy? Answer is I won't go cheap. Only qestion in my mind is 3800+ or faster, Venice or San Deigo?

When I step up to A64 I'm going to go all out.

Go cheap if you wish Ti4200, but please don't make us listen to you cry if your E-bay chip won't clock high.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zA.Gosu

This post was completely uncalled for. - Edited by conrad.maranan

---

you gotta admit though - a hell of a lot of humour value if nothing else.

geforce we would like to see your roadmap for 2005 pls :banana: :banana: :banana:

it would be foolish to buy a winnie right now, if your intention is to overclock, when venice is basically here. Why risk getting a crappy CBBID LBBID or other winnie. I agree some of the results we may have been getting about venice may be from "cherrypicked" samples but as the owner of 2 CBBID winnies I certaintly couldnt imagine venice being anything but better than what is available now for winnies.

Heh,
If only you guys saw how much I sold the 3500+ and 3800+ Venices for...... ;)

I want buy Venice to replace my crapy CBBID Winnie :D

:slap:

What is point of this thread the prices are going to be aboiut 20 bucks more at first. Then in a few months the product is going to be the same as a Winnie.

Going to a 90nm process makinga better memory controller adding SSE3, and loweing the volts is not worth 50-100% price hike.

***Ebay is hardly the place to go for overclocking chips.***

:gay:

exactly

ebay is THE dumping ground for dud o/c'ers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mouawad

exactly

ebay is THE dumping ground for dud o/c'ers

---

( Looks at Geforce4ti4200's PC and agrees ) :fact:

The Venice MAY BE 10% more then winnies at start not from AMD but places like Newegg (not bashing them I LOVE them) becasue they know that us clockers wont to get or hands on them pretty much no matter what...

Dragon

Let's try to move towards a more intelligent discussion, gentlemen. There is absolutely no need to flame any member of the forum over his particular ideas and opinions. Warnings will be sent via PM shortly.

Everyone needs to take the time to read the AMD Section Guidelines thread. I created that with approval by the forum's staff for the betterment of the AMD section of the forum.

Geforce4ti4200 - Although the Venice has yet to be released to the masses, it is already the perceived hot ticket to higher CPU clocks and better memory performance. There will always be those who will be the first to jump on the bandwagon and take advantage of the latest piece of hardware to hit the market - regardless of the price increase. Comparing prices for new hardware versus old hardware and price differences between brand new retail and used ebay is very unreasonable. Old and/or used hardware is just that. It's not a piece of real estate that gains equity or retains value, regardless of how it performs. It sells for what the market sees it is worth.

I think most users on this forum are so incredibly hyped up about these new steppings that they don't care what the price will be. I plan on buying 5 and keeping the hot one. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by s7e9h3n

Heh,
If only you guys saw how much I sold the 3500+ and 3800+ Venices for...... ;)

---

:woot: :D

People who have got Winnies already would I think want to upgrade to a Venice cpu. The extra money I think wouldnt bother too many people. When the Venice's arrive it would be hard to get a 'good' price for a Winnie even if its a good one to buy a Venice, to make the upgrade margin less. The market would be flooded with Winnies like when people sold thier MSI Neo2's for the DFI NF4 boards.

Ive got a Venice already, my upgrade is from a 3800+ Newcastle (2800mhz... 280x10 / 312x9 on air) cpu. Ive already paid out for the Venice. so this means I got to sell the 3800+ NC. Hopefully if I get my Venice before they hit the shops then I could sell my Newcastle for a little more to get some money back from the purchase of the Venice and decrease the 'upgrade' price of swithcing cpu's.

I think that makes sense to you... it kind does to me :)

P.S. No PM offers for my 3800+ Newcastle at this moment of time. When I decide to sell the cpu I may create a thread in the 'For Sale' section. Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bennah

:woot: :D

People who have got Winnies already would I think want to upgrade to a Venice cpu. The extra money I think wouldnt bother too many people. When the Venice's arrive it would be hard to get a 'good' price for a Winnie even if its a good one to buy a Venice, to make the upgrade margin less. The market would be flooded with Winnies like when people sold thier MSI Neo2's for the DFI NF4 boards.

Ive got a Venice already, my upgrade is from a 3800+ Newcastle (2800mhz... 280x10 / 312x9 on air) cpu. Ive already paid out for the Venice. so this means I got to sell the 3800+ NC. Hopefully if I get my Venice before they hit the shops then I could sell my Newcastle for a little more to get some money back from the purchase of the Venice and decrease the 'upgrade' price of swithcing cpu's.

I think that makes sense to you... it kind does to me :)

P.S. No PM offers for my 3800+ Newcastle at this moment of time. When I decide to sell the cpu I may create a thread in the 'For Sale' section. Thanks.

---

I say sell the Newcastle asap because the Venices are right around the corner. You'll already see a few people saying "I'm just going to wait until the Venice gets released next week" :rolleyes: . Although the 3800+ was originally scheduled for a later release date than the 3000+,3200+, etc., people are going to pass on a 3800+ NC @ 2800 when/if they can get their hands on a cheaper Venice that can do the same clocks. Hey, if you're lucky, you just may be able to get close to what you paid for that Venice ;) BTW Bennah, drop me a PM when you get a chance....

if any venice does like the ones here in XS the s7e9h3n the 3500 and 3800 and the ones in other reviews 3200 in xbit was it?

getting 2.8ghz on air stable i think they worth the extra 20$ they are going to cost more..

remember when winchester was out they were moving from 130nm to 90nm soy they can charge more but this time they are just adding sse3 instructions and some tweaks to the mem controller but average joe doesnt care about that ;)

i dont think it will cost the double :S

Bennah where did you get the venice from (or preorder from)?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cossey

Bennah where did you get the venice from (or preorder from)?

---

Me...and no I don't have any others so please nobody PM for one :D
BTW, both pcice and I have posted threads reviewing this particular 3800+.
My original thread on air and single phase....
Pc-Ice's on a cascade......

i assumed it was something like that but was checking anyway.

If I see some 3000+ venice chips doing 2.9+ on air then I wouldn't have a problem dropping the $$$ a month or so after they hit places like the egg and monarch. :D

Price : Venice = Winchester
AMD doen't sell a core must expensive than other ... A64 3000+ price is A64 3000+ price, but the first mouth, maybe few shop make more money ...
++

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geforce4ti4200

some dude got a good stepping 3000+ winny off ebay for $100. OEM but still thats one heck of a deal. Retail winnies should be about $120. Now when Venice first becomes in stock, I wouldnt be supprised if it was twice that or $240 for a 3000+ retail example with higher speeds of course costing an arm. It may be a month before a 3000+ Venice settles down to $180 but then winnies will be much cheaper $100-120 or so. Is it worth paying $60-100+ or 50-100% more for a 3000+ Venice instead of a 3000+ winny? We dont yet know how well the speed binned 3000+ may do but weve seen in the 2.9GHz for the 3800+ examples. I doubt the 3000+ will clock quite as well as the 3800+ simply cause its not as good silcon. Lets say 2.6 to 2.7 is relistic. This would not help those with good winchesters but itll help most CBBID guys and those with really weak winny ondie controllers. My winny does 289x9 for 3dmarking with 2x256mb and 262x9 with 2x512. I could just run it at 305x8=2.44 with ram on 166 divider running at 244MHz for 24/7 gaming. I know with Venice, I am likley to be able to run like 289x9 1:1 if the ram itself can handle that. Yes I do like Venice and am looking forward to it but I never realized how cheap winnies have gotten on ebay!

---

your back to pure spculations and talking about your own hardware and what you plan to get and not to get again :(


i think venice chips will oc notably higher than winnies plus they have sse3 and an improved imc. and it should take much time before they cos the same or less as winnies atm. i dont get what you mean with think about it twice, winnies are dead, they will be completely repaced by venice chips, wich are def superior to them, so whats there to think about twice? the price? sure, if you dont care about a slightly lower oc then go get a cheap winnie...

Wow these next few months are going to be interesting! :woot: :toast:

Well they are when the San Diego's start arriving :D

Shoot I will buy an 0448 for $100 ;)

3500+ 1MB San Diego looks very enticing....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mouawad

exactly

ebay is THE dumping ground for dud o/c'ers

---

Not always... at least on the German eBay there are a couple of small companies which have specialised in finding good OCers, testing them and reselling them on eBay. There was one company for example that was selling nothing but:
1. many CBBHD 0449 SPAWs, all pre-tested for 2.5GHz stock volts
2. many X800Pro ViVos, softmodded and overclocked to XT PE speeds
3. a couple of BH5 512MB sticks, pre-tested at 250MHz 2-2-2-5 with 3.2V
So sometimes you CAN get a good overclocker off eBay. Unfortunately such companies are rather rare, usually it's just Average Joe selling his crap overclocker... but this is something you can easily notice :)

Oke GeForce4ti4200 look at this:

http://epscontest.com/prices/rm_2005_04_11.htm

as you can see the 3000+, 3200+, 3500+. are cheaper.
and the 3800 and 4000 are going from 130 to 90mm so the will cost more.

Have you all seen the 3500+ San Diego :slobber: :slobber: :slobber:

I have no clue exactly what price they will be and I wont speculate except I have my eye on the 3000+ Venice and 3500+ Diego. I would have to see how well they overclock, how well they work with todays mobos and what they cost before I can make an informed decision to stay with winchester, go 3000+ venice or 3500+ diego

let me be the first to say venice will be the same price as winchester. or at least within $10-15 of it.

lok at the 3500+ newcastle and winchester OEM... $272 and $272 at newegg.
and the clawhammer retail is $268.

Anyone know what kind of performance increase we are looking at with SSE3 in games such as CounterStrike:Source?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMeatFrog

Anyone know what kind of performance increase we are looking at with SSE3 in games such as CounterStrike:Source?

---

yes.
















just wait a few days and someone will test it. :p:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geforce4ti4200

I have no clue exactly what price they will be and I wont speculate except I have my eye on the 3000+ Venice and 3500+ Diego. I would have to see how well they overclock, how well they work with todays mobos and what they cost before I can make an informed decision to stay with winchester, go 3000+ venice or 3500+ diego

---

Not surprised you want the cheapest venice but that optimism has also caused you to go bonkers!!!! Why the heck would there be a 3500+ SanDiego? You sure?

SSE3, improved mem controller and all those goodies and 1 mb cache! Sign me up, but I don't see $270 Sandiego's... sorry. I see that thread though, I guess I'll go check it out but it makes no sense to me.

Just pre-ordered an ADA3200BPBOX for $209 to the door, $19 more than a winnie, but hopefully worth it, chump change in my opinion for the updated mem controller alone.............

VENNIE Me schpiffy................................

A MOD could probably close this thread now that Geforce4ti4200 has admitted he has no clue what he was talking about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clockedOut

A MOD could probably close this thread now that Geforce4ti4200 has admitted he has no clue what he was talking about.

---

ROFL :horse:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clockedOut

A MOD could probably close this thread now that Geforce4ti4200 has admitted he has no clue what he was talking about.

---

:owned:

this thread was hilarious :)

venice over winny any day! the cost difference is literally nothing!

I work at a small Pc shop, and as soon as we get the first Venice sample's I'll just swap with my old Winnie. :p:

Mcklain

Let the flames begin. I think Geforce4ti4200 brings up an interesting argument. Nobody knows the value play until the chip hits the market, wide scale prices are set, and ocing (beyond the one or two reviews to date) takes hold. At what price does Venice make sense over a Winnie? $25, $50, $100?

If demand is high, I can assure you newegg and zipzoom will leverage the hell out of their stock. If this is the case, the cost/performance question will come into play. Over time the chip will lose its luster. I doubt $10-15 will be the delta in the first few weeks. I may be wrong, but remember the honeymoon pricing on SLI boards, PCI cards, etc?

The best way to base a price guess would be look back at the prices for the winchester core when it was released versus the newcastle core.

I'm sorry for deflateing the ballon here. But, this is ridiclous that everyone here is jumping on the OMFG venice is great bandwagon. I know the perlimanary results show it to be a good overclocker, ECT ECT. But, seriously 3 people get their hands on one and everyone here is saying OMFG IM GOING TO BUY ONE!!!!!!!, lemme cash in my 401K!!!!. I know the odds are more then favorable, but some people here are thinking your garrenteed 2.8ghz+. Overclocking is nothing garrenteed, and im pretty shure if these clocks were actaully so easily possible you would be seeing AMD pushing out higher clocked chips. Instead there are binning them cheaper for a reason. IMO amd would be a much better position if they can kill the 3000+ chip entirely and everychip thats released is a 3200+ minimum (for the desktop market).

Sorry if im kind of being a sourpuss, im still trying to squeeze out some extra mhz out of my 0249 xp2100+. I can only get it to 2600+ with out alot of extra voltage. Ahwell, let the galavanting continue.

Hmmm...if you have to cash in your 401K to purchase a Venice then you have mor problems then which will be better.

Bottom line you do not know yet how good the Venice will be, but who cares? AMD has done a good job improving its chips and the cost difference will be minimal (less then $50). If you are on a tight budget then cost/performance comes into play, but I highly doubt that Venice will not perform at least as well as winnies so for most of us its a small risk with a small cost.

Who cares if people think that these are a sure path to 2.8ghz+? Good luck to them! I for one am putting off my A64 purchase for a Venice, why not? Doesn't hurt me to wait, odds are good for solid OCing and since I don't need to cash out any stock options or 401K to pay for it no biggie. Besides you get new features in the Venice and that alone will be worth it to some.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 3Aims

Let the flames begin. I think Geforce4ti4200 brings up an interesting argument. Nobody knows the value play until the chip hits the market, wide scale prices are set, and ocing (beyond the one or two reviews to date) takes hold. At what price does Venice make sense over a Winnie? $25, $50, $100?

If demand is high, I can assure you newegg and zipzoom will leverage the hell out of their stock. If this is the case, the cost/performance question will come into play. Over time the chip will lose its luster. I doubt $10-15 will be the delta in the first few weeks. I may be wrong, but remember the honeymoon pricing on SLI boards, PCI cards, etc?

---

Well, I'd take 3200+ venice over a 3500+ winchester anyday. We're not all out to buy the cheapest chip possible, like GF here. Whats the difference between paying $50 for an extra speed grade, or a mostly vendor related price hike that after a short while will probably be $15. Easily worth it, only troubling if you're used to buying the bottom chip off of ebay. ;) Really, there is no sense for an overclocker, the hike would have to be damn big.

The point is mostly aimed to GF in here - You can either wait for price to settle, or apparently you can buy cheap junk. Simple as that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by texuspete00

Well, I'd take 3200+ venice over a 3500+ winchester anyday. We're not all out to buy the cheapest chip possible, like GF here. Whats the difference between paying $50 for an extra speed grade, or a mostly vendor related price hike that after a short while will probably be $15. Easily worth it, only troubling if you're used to buying the bottom chip off of ebay. ;) Really, there is no sense for an overclocker, the hike would have to be damn big.

The point is mostly aimed to GF in here - You can either wait for price to settle, or apparently you can buy cheap junk. Simple as that.

---

the thing is though sometimes its the "cheap junk" as you put it that ends up being the monster clockers, I mean the good old 1700+, 2500+ Barton, 2.4c northwood, 3000+ winchester SPAW. Sometimes the low binned stuff are jewels waiting to be discovered.

In my opinion most winnies blow... so it's like buying a Tbred A with the B's coming out. Whether you agree with this assessment or not.... I dont think this relates to 1700+ JIUHB's at all. We're talking about the cheapest chip you can buy on a process that amd hasnt felt could even give them 1 new speed grade. No sir.... a JIUHB it is not.

Look at all the chips you mentioned, with the exception of the miracle winnies, they were all only miracle clockers when they were the slowest speed bins of an already mature process. When was the 1700+ good? When were the 2500+'s all the rage?

I guess I don't really fit in this discussion to me I'm hoping on venice's finally giving me something to buy again. You see, if venice wasnt coming out, I'd still be buying NC's. I don't like winnies. I think we the exception of a few gems, they stink considering the latest NC's I've had my hands on cando 2.6 to 2.7G no probs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by texuspete00

In my opinion most winnies blow... so it's like buying a Tbred A with the B's coming out. Whether you agree with this assessment or not.... I dont think this relates to 1700+ JIUHB's at all. We're talking about the cheapest chip you can buy on a process that amd hasnt felt could even give them 1 new speed grade. No sir.... a JIUHB it is not.

Look at all the chips you mentioned, with the exception of the miracle winnies, they were all only miracle clockers when they were the slowest speed bins of an already mature process. When was the 1700+ good? When were the 2500+'s all the rage?

---

Im not saying buy a winnie Im just saying dont knock getting a lower modeled venice

^ um ok... that should be a piecce of cake since I wouldn't do that. Cheap as possible is because GF is fretting over some price hike. I don't think you understand here... Gf always goes with the lowest common denominator after trumpetting it, and is then unhappy. If you're gonna get a 3000+, not ebay, get a venice. No price hike this price hike that... you have to pay for something sometimes... get a Venice.

Does this thread, http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=379636, remind you of anything :).

there is not reason to increase price of the cpu, why?

simple average joe doesnt know about microns doesnt know about sse3 doesnt know about cores or memory controller they dont care about cold bug they just want a nice athlon 64 chip because every body is talking about them and they are good and they are cheap...

maybe they can boost 10$ per cpu but never 100$ 50$ is just common sense

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NotoriousMike

Does this thread, http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=379636, remind you of anything :).

---

LMAO!!! Oh I cant read it twice it hurts tooooooooo much.
:nono:

If you can't handle GF4, you have the option to ignore him. That's all, folks.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...chmentid=28588