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http://www.asetek.com/nyhederPro/vis...0&DatabaseID=1
I put this in air, even though they can technically call it phase change, I think we know... ;)
Anyway, I personally think it might not be bad for those looking for a silent computer. I'm sure we'll hear about it from our guys that check it out in Hannover.
Who wants to take a guess at the pricetag?
:cool:
Weird design.
Curious to see how it performs.
Retail price indicator: from 27€ (excl. VAT). Not bad.
http://www.asetek.com/default.asp?sh...n=2&menuID=497
IS that good for what I assume is a Prescott ? Ambient is high 35C so I assume at normal 20C it would be in the mid 50's C.
Regards
Andy
Doesn't look too bad to me, I can't think of any other passive ways to cool a prescott... :eek:
I would imagine high 50's would be possible with the low ambient brought about by not being inside a case...
So basically its just a set of heatpipes. Apart from these ones are actually angled upwards so they work for a change.
Whats angle to do with it, it does mention there chambered instead.
My TT pipe101 fits on sockets lugs and since lugs are top and bottom on my NF2 not on sides of socket like my old A7V333 it means pipes are staight up and down, the way they are meant to be to work as they use gravity.
Endstops to top and "U"bends to bottom, putting at angle prob wont make it any worste but deff wont make it better, but can take up less depth in case.
I think the price is very good, cooling a Prescott passively is such a good result.
That looks like it'll function best when mounted on a horizontally placed board...when you actually put it in a case it will have a minimal angle on the heatpipes (thats also why its not placed exactly upright but at a small angle)
The performance itself doesnt seem different either from any other aircooler with a silent 80mm fan...? Ok so the ambient is 35C, you'll have to try pretty hard to get your case temp below 35C if you want a quiet system :)
Its interesting for sure, but its been done, and I dont see much point in selling something that is more expensive to make than a plain heatsink, but that you have to sell at a low pricepoint because you cant compete performance wise with a plain heatsink!
the temps with the passively cooled one also appear high enough to trigger throttling on the chip
doesnt seem very innovative
Only if your motheboard isn't in a tower.Quote:
Originally Posted by humeyboy
Bit tech has some better pics.
http://www.bit-tech.net/feature/77
I'm still uncertain as to how effective this will be inside a cramped case...
when will this bad boy be out?
WOW! :D :banana:Quote:
The cooler is similar in function to a heatpipe, with a metal base being filled with gas that heats up and rises and is then cooled by the fins and the fan.
That sounds really good!
This is gonna be a nice alternative to the normal Air Cooling Solutions!
And 27€ is imho a relly NICE PRICE! :)
I'm thinking in and around Q2 of this yearQuote:
Originally Posted by shuRe
Well maybe if they developed their own gas that condensed at room temperature and evaporated well below it. They probably didn't do that. This cooler will function just slightly (Because it uses a angle to take advantage of gravity) better than any other heatpipe solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by 404Power
Thing i like about it is that it seems to achieve decent temps without weighing a tonne like the current monsters of aircooling we have around at the moment.
Aint gonna be out until April, so maybe Asetek are doing some more work on it, i dont know, just have to wait and see, certainly looks interesting, and it seems that Asetek are now the first company to sell air, water and phase change coolers.
I reserve judgement until we see results and the final revision, but it certainly looks interesting.
G
the angle thing looks like a bad constructio to me tbh... in a case it could only be positioned in either a 90° angle to the floor because of the psu beeing above it or to a 0° angle to the floor, nothing in between, so why is it moveable in the first place :confused:
EDIT: i guess on some boards that have the cpu socket not on top of the board it can be moved in an angle...
hmmm if its still at the asetek booth i will try to get an idear of the temps and all :D
looks really nice. :)
checked it out today, 295gr filled with r134a and will only cost 27€!
sounds promising...
Cheers for the info saaya, nice find!
G
what a scam!!! How many people hit that front page link expecting to see a shoe-box sized vapochill?
C
are there any temperatures available ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
Yeah, I demand a matchbox size chilly1/pcice compressor.
eh, the whole configuration of that cooler seems kinda iffy. I sorta doubt it would be far superior to an XP-120 or equivalent.
With that thing on I'd be afraid of even slighty bumping my tower case from fear of it ripping the processor out of the socket.
But who knows, maybe it will be cooler than an XP-120 :confused:
I'm wondering about how well it'll cool because the whole point of phase change is the compression phase, which massively increases hotside temps and heat removal.
That said, it's not trying to achieve sub-ambient CPU temps - so it may well outcool regular airsinks - and have the added benefit that there are no condensation issues.
Be interesting to see - but it doesn't look like they've used any kind of sealing.
r134a?
That doesnt evap/condense at 30-50c....
It will still work, when it heats up it will become less dense and thus lighter than the gas in the top of the tube, the hot gas will travel up and the cooler gas will fall down.
I never read the included link untill now, according to the press release there isn't actually any phase change going on, it just used "phase change principles". Using a gas for cooling can be consided a "phase change principle". They are a little deceptive, but still legally correct.
so unfortionatly, dispite them calling it phase change it's just a heatpipe no?
I mean lets check the working of a heatpipe:
-Tube
-with gas in it
-gas evaporates at "higher" temperatures
-hot gas rises up and the cooler gas falls down.
thus transporting heat away from proc.
Now lets check the micro's working:
-Tube
-with gas in it
-gas evaporates at "higher" temperatures
-hot gas rises up and the cooler gas falls down.
thus transporting heat away from proc.
It'll cool nice espesially seeing the price and that it has heatpipes but the phase change thing is really stupid of them to call it like that. everyone expects temps of at least 20°C or say 10°C above room temp but noooooo :p
they just use a heatpipe filled with another gas .......
Gees
Replace condesenses with 'evaporates'.
EDIT - :banana:
In fact maybe you were more :banana4:
:p:
Lol yhea missed that one :p:
Gonna be fast to edit that :)
There is no condensation or evaporation occoring, it is all based on the ideal gas law, PV=nRT
Other heatpipes have had oil in them rather than gas. I wonder which is better at removing heat ? I thought liquids were far better ?
Regards
Andy
What about building such cooler with R134a and pull a vacuum to make it evaporate at like 25-30 degrees celsius?
What you guys want to look up is thermal conductivity. When I was looking up info for that post I remember looking at "oil" and noticing it had a high thermal conductivity or specific heat capacity value.. this would depend on the type of oil, and i'm not 100% which of the two it was.. I should have made note of it in the post.
Read this. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...965#post742965
This also ties in with the Zalman thread here: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...302#post765302
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexio
You mean pressurising it? Vacuuming would only lower the evaporation temperature.
Maybe someone should buy one and install a peircing valve onto a pipe and hook a pressure gauge up to it.
Does it act like water where more pressure causes seperation of molecules and Vacuum causes increased density?
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=11425
check it out.. one of the members knows what it actually is.. the whole phase change thing is total garbage... it doesnt even change phase...
Yep they are just using their repuation and name reconigtion as a phasechange company to sell some fancy looking air-cooled heatsinks. The sad part is lots of people will end up buying these sinks and claiming they have phasechange :( .Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Depending on what exactly is in the tubes, they will.
The problem is everyone associates heatpipes with phasechange, which is a load of bullocks.
stevil.. its the name game... heatpipes are techincally a phase change... but so is me boiling water.. :P:
but hey, there are lots of ppl who are uninformed and will buy this... sadly its not so much their fualt...
Thats what i'm talking about, though, even you've bought into it!
They are only phasechange if they contain a phasechange material! If its full of only a gas or only a liquid its not phasechange!
What's a "phasechange material" ?Quote:
Originally Posted by STEvil
Every known substance is phasechange capable - from Hydrogen to Lead.
In action, there WILL be two phases - liquid refrigerant in the return pipe and gaseous refrigerant in the hotside.
The important thing is the refrigerant used.
Obviously water would be useless, with a 100C boiling point - but a commercial R-refrigerant should be quite effective.
Sure it won't cool to sub-ambient without a compressor in the loop, but the key parameter is how heat is conducted away at operating temps.
Using a gas allows heat to be transferred further than it would be through the fins of a conventional sink - allowing the use of a much larger convective surface area ... a bit like the difference between an air-cooled and a water-cooled IC engine.
A phasechange material is one that is allowed to change its state of matter.Quote:
What's a "phasechange material" ?
Depending on the Specific Heat Capacity, surface area, surface tension, and Thermal Conductivity, and assuming the cooler and material used both remain within its wokring temperature zone...Quote:
In action, there WILL be two phases - liquid refrigerant in the return pipe and gaseous refrigerant in the hotside.
The important thing is the refrigerant used.
Obviously water would be useless, with a 100C boiling point - but a commercial R-refrigerant should be quite effective.
Sure it won't cool to sub-ambient without a compressor in the loop, but the key parameter is how heat is conducted away at operating temps.
Using a gas allows heat to be transferred further than it would be through the fins of a conventional sink - allowing the use of a much larger convective surface area ... a bit like the difference between an air-cooled and a water-cooled IC engine.
What i'm getting at is that if you fill the heatpipe completely with a liquid, it has no room to expand and cannot change states readily. Most gases have horrible characteristics for heat capacity and thermal conductivity, so assuming they allow transfer of the heat energy further than just copper is false depending on the application.
But it's not filled entirely with liquid.
Sure, but there's a combination of gaseous transfer and solid conduction up the pipe.Quote:
Originally Posted by STEvil
Edit: I spent too long typing, this is supposed to be in response to STs post.
You are a little bit wrong, a proporly designed an executed heatpipe system might work better than staight copper. (I havn't personally tested it so I say might) No computer heatpipe sytems are done proporly yet. They need to be a tube that is either virtical or very close to it.
You give the pipe a little squirt of gas, not nearly enough for it to liquify. When the gas at the bottom heats up it will expand, becoming less dense and at the same time compress (Not nearly to a point of liquification, I'm not trying to imply that at all) the gas at the top of the tube so it becomes more dense. The hot gas rises and the cooler gas falls.
The less distance something needs to travel the more effective it is, so these coolers that have heatpipes without fins right over the CPU (Like the Zalman 8000 and the Gigabyte 3d cooler, not to mention both of those coolers have horizontal and effectively useless heatpipes) should not perform as well as those with fins right on the CPU such as the XP90/120 or Zalman 7700. Heatpipes should only be added to an already successful design, not have a design based around them.
No, there won't. PV=nRT Higher temperature = more pressure = less density. It is a sealed tube so the volume will never change. I acctually said this earlier in this very thread, but I too sometimes just skip to the last posts and read those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Y.H.Pats
The hot side will push on the cold side giving it higher pressure make it it more dense. To reach equilibrium the gasses will want to raise the hot one and lower the cold one. They will do this automatically on their own. If you don't belive it you can do it with liquids, take a tube and put it in a glass of water untill it reaches the bottom, take some cooking oil and pour it down the tube then blow through the tube to make sure it gets into the glass. (It would normally want to stay above the water in the tube because it is less dense) You can watch it rise to the top on its own. The same thing will happen with gasses. The hotter side will be less dense and rise.
It sems to be a good cooler. :) Think I will switch my 7000cu for this when it comes out.The orginal fan sems to be a quiet low speed 92mm.
I have a good enermax 92mm, which i could change so i can run really quiet or loud for benchs. Do you think there will be a noticiable differens from 30cf/m to 50cf/m with this cooler?
Well, it's not. Just put that high CFM fan on the Zalman to replace the crappy stock one. (50CFM isn't that much for a 92MM fan, you should buy one in the 70-80 CFM range, any louder than that will be rather loud at 92MM)
you mean on the 7000cu?Quote:
Originally Posted by craig588
i know, but it stil lhas a terrible sound at 50cf(over 40dba), but here at xtremesystems it won't be called loud.
Indeed, the capacity of the sealed system is unchanging.Quote:
Originally Posted by craig588
But when not in action, that volume will be at low pressure (wherein the majority of the contents will be liquid)and at high temps, it'll be at high pressure (wherein the majority will be gaseous).
Volume remains the same while pressure changes.
You are not making any sense. Lower pressures make something a gas, higher pressures make them a liquid. If there is space in that tube not filled with something and there is liquid R134a in it it won't just remain a liquid at room temperature, it will expand to fit the whole tube because there is less pressure because it has a greater volume. A gas will never just remain a liquid if it is in conditions where it is capable of being a gas. (Nor will it remain a gas if it is in conditions that allow it to turn into a liquid)
If you mean the whole tube is filled with R134 to a point where the whole thing is liquid than the heatpipe truely is worthless.
If your room temp was -18C then it would turn into a liquid when cold, but defintly not under normal operating conditions.
Craig, imagine a sealed chamber half full of liquid - the other half is its gaseous form, lets say at one atmosphere.
If we apply heat, the liquid will start to gasify and the pressure will increase.
You're saying that the increasing gas pressure will prevent the liquid from gasifying - but in the RW, that doesn't happen.
Correct me if I'm barking up the wrong tree.
Assuming too much, everyone does it differently.Quote:
But it's not filled entirely with liquid.
The Gas has a low specific heat capacity, any benifit of faster transfer away from the energy generating source is useless. The liquid form does not fill the entire pipe depending on the construction, and I dont know of many liquids that can conduct heat as fast as copper... granted i've not looked deeply into that.Quote:
Sure, but there's a combination of gaseous transfer and solid conduction up the pipe.
agreed on heatpipe design, but what the heatsink manufacturer choses to put into and how much is up to them.Quote:
Edit: I spent too long typing, this is supposed to be in response to STs post.
120mm fans fit perfectly on 7000's ;)
Increased pressure increases liquid to gas transfer speeds in water (pressure cooker) and expands the water molecules. If this holds true for all liquid to gas transfers I dont know, however.
That can't happen. The liquid part will turn into a gas and equilize with the rest of the R134. It will never stay a liquid unless it doesn't have the chance to turn into a gas and the only way that will happen is if the entire tube is liquid, but at that point it won't perform any better than a solid copper tube.Quote:
Originally Posted by Y.H.Pats
Now if Asetek said that their heatpipe is a mixture of a few different things then your theory would work, but they said it just uses 27G of R134.
Gas and liquid at the same time?
Sure it can.
EDIT
Example:
When you boil water it does not all flash suddenly to a vapor, even if you superheat it them disturb it. The whole of what is inside the heatpipe does not change phase all at in one instant.
But there appears to be a capillary-throttle on this thing - which points towards a liquid to gas transition.
You say Asetek said it only contains R-134 ... how is that incompatible with phase change ?
What else would you expect to be in the system ?
My sealed chamber scenario was purely for the point of demonstrating the pressure-phase relationship.
Ok, I belive I understand it, I always figured that if there was liquid and gas in the tube that the liquid would become a gas to reach equilibrium, but I didn't take into account the pressure that the gas on top is pushing onto the liquid. you increase the pressure on the gas through increased temps and volume of the liquid, it liquifys the gas in the top and the cycle repeats.
When it is a liquid it shouldn't be terrible at absorbing heat like it would have if it was a gas.
Now if only a company made a vertical heatpipe system.
I see where the confusion was arising, Craig.
Lower pressures will make more gas, but only where the gas is of one chemical dissolved in the liquid of another, eg - CO-2 in water.
heh yeah,Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroHero
(anywhere else) quiet = less than 23dBa
At Xtreme quiet = less than like 50dBa :ROTF:
I actually thought that heatpipes used just oil and no gas in them ? The oil is heated at the bottom of the tube near the cpu and convection causes a rising- cooling - descending cycle which transfers heat away from the bottom ??
Have I got it all wrong ? :) Won;t be the first time....
Regards
Andy
Depends on the manufacturer, zakelwe.